Teach Me About Delay

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dachay2tnr

dachay2tnr

One Hit Wonder
I've been digitally recording now for 3+ years. Nearly all of the songs I've done 'til now include some form of reverb - and for the most part the recordings have been OK (although I still haven't found a software reverb I truly like).

Anyway, so I keep hearing about delay. And I'm intersted in trying it out as compared to reverb (or with reverb). And I read that the delay needs to be in time with the music. And I understand that, and got myself a BPM to millisecond converter.

But I'm still confused as to how to use delay. I mean, do I set the delay to 1/4 note, 1/8 note, 1/16 note. And what's the deal with multitaps. Do you use a variety of settings on a multi-tap - i.e., delays of varying length?

And if you set the delay to long, it sounds like an echo - which can be cool at the end of a line - but how do you control when and where you hear it, versus when you don't? (Man, I'm sounding like a real newbie here :) )

I'm sure part of the answer is going to be, "depends on the song." I can respect that, but can someone at least point me in the right direction. Specific examples would help tremendously. (FYI, I have a Waves Supertap 2 and 6, and Cakewalk's Delay and FxDelay available).

I guess what I'm saying is that in my attempts to use delay, nothing has sounded any good. Which leads me to believe I am not approaching it right.
 
Ive alway approached delay as a feel rather than as function.

Its a useful tool if the music needs it, but there are alot of things that don't require it. It may not be working for you because its not appropriate for the song. I usually use on guitar solo's and vocals and some times keyboards. To me delays adds character to something already with a certain level of ambience to it. Whats really cool about the Lexicon 224 with the LARC is that its so simple to tweak it until it sounds right when it come to verbs, and adding a little delay can really make something liven up or die instantly. Ive sat for a few hours trying to dial in a delay to where I like it. To me finding the right delay is one of the hardest FX to do.

SoMm
 
The Story Of Delay......

It begain centeries ago in the darkest depths of China........ok, lets skip that part :D

You want to know how to control delay? (i.e: When to hear it and when to not right?) Most recording/editing software will let you "Spit" tracks and do diffurent things to them. (i.e: If you want to hear the delay at 30sec and want it to stop at 35sec, split the track at 30 and 35 and apply delay to that section of the track.)

That's how i've alwys done it.....
 
SoMm - how you doing? Haven't seen you in awhile. Thanks for the comments. Makes me feel that maybe I'm not as off base as I thought I was.

Zeke - good tip. Gives me an idea. Rather than use a delay FX, I guess I could simply clone the track the move it back in time. Then cut the cloned track down to just where I want the delay.
Hmmmmm....

Andres - thanks for the link.
 
I find some of the more utility uses are in the shorter ranges, where they can be tucked in or be less than obvious. You can split them up into (gereral) uses if you like. Short stereo for spreading horizontally, mono to spread back-stage. (not counting the out front effects) Most of this falls in the 30 ms range (for spreading), 50 - 90 ms range for depth, with tempo effects going out further.
Tempo ratios are one way. I went for a general familiarity with how different ranges feel. And the numbers can lie like a dog. (A good example is on a PCM-80, 30 ms is 50 ms if you turn diffusion on. Go figure.:) )
Sustained stuff gets away with more level than short quick signals (just like verb), except when they cut off and they go naked on you.
Chears again. Fun stuff...:D
Wayne
 
Just try them all & see which ones you like. Mess around with the dry/wet %s, crossovers, delay times etc.

I'e got Cakewalk GT Pro and tend to use the tempo based delays to fill out drum tracks and multitap or trails type delays on vocals. Solo the track initially, then unsolo to see how it blends with the mix. Have fun
 
delay is cool, have a look at this PSP84 thing, stereo lexicon style with cross channel feed back, real time phrase sampler+ continuous time varying delay+ reverb+ phase effects! perfect for heavy dub sound and a whole load of other musical styles!

try this:

song tempo 180
delay tempo: 90
delay time : 3/4 on the left channel 1/2 or 2/3 on the right!


as far as reverb is concerned, U better have a try at Super Impulse Reverb by Knufi. Its a real time convolution VST plugin, but runs with a fixed 16000 o so samples latency. can't be played real time, but it's really goos on a mix. Get the impulses from www.noisevault.com.
 
Maybe someone can help us both out. I read something somewhere (can't remember where now... argh!) about a week or two ago that talked about a formula for determining your delay time based on the tempo of the song.

I had thought it was on this forum, but a quick search didn't help. Anybody know what I'm talking about? I should've bookmarked it, but I can be an idiot sometimes.

Anyway, I love delay, but like Dachay2tnr, I want to learn to utilize it better. IMO, a perfect example of well-used delay is that new Foo Fighters song: 'Times Like These". At the beginning of each verse, he says "I" and then it delays a couple times then stops. Anyway, just thought I'd point out an example of what I think is well-used delay.

Can anyone help on that forumula?
 
i use the analogx delay calculator. its great. 1/2 | 1/4 | 1/8 | 1/16 note delay times and their triplets.

often i like using a short-ish delay on the lead vocal it gives it a certain character without setting it back in the mix like reverb (which is essentially a series of delays strung quickly together). again i'm not talking about the end-of-phrase type of medium length delay, but a short barely perceptible delay that thickens the vocal without making it sound chorus-ey.

i also use delay when i want to take a single guitar track and pan the original L and the delayed signal R, but not necessarily full L and full R.

oh, and delay is really good for brass and organ sounds. it really helps the brass section stand up.
 
Delay

To calculate the Delay use this formula:

60000 (fixed number) / Tempo in BPM

Example: if your song is 135...

60000 / 135 = 444ms

Then you can split or double the value...

444ms on the left channel
222ms on the right channel, etc...

Bye Bye
 
As far as having an effect only in certain parts of a song, I would use the "Automation" features. (at least that is what it is called in Protools LE)

It's like an extra hand to tweak a knob, or flip a switch (kinda like when you see faders moving by themselves as something is played through a digital mixer.)
 
I don't know about the others, but Vegas allows you to set an envelope for your effects sends to raise & lower the level during the song. One thing I like to do with a vocal delay sometimes is roll off the highs & the lows. It sits in the mix better sometimes like this.
 
Counting notes from milliseconds, or as i prefer to do, counting them from full 24 bars by counting to 25 and multiplying stopwatch's reading with 41.81, is cool. I do that with compressors always.

But delay is somewhat different. I usually take the delay time by delaying snare, and then moving that delay to someplace else, guitar or vocals. It's cool if delay pushes or drags a little, if that fits wit the songs feeling.

I also love the David Bowie trick, where you put a gate before second, slower delay, so that only loud enough passages trigger the slower delay.

And of course there's nothing like a 8-10 ms single delay to fatten up the distorted guitar. Check out any of Bob Mould's Sugar-era albums; or Brian May's leads with The Queen.

And of course you can widen the guitar lead by panning the dry guitar on other side, and a delayed signal on the other.

Good luck,

Slabrock
 
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