Eclipse4449
Member
No, I had a “value” mic set in which I disconnected and bought (2) 7 piece Sure mic kits still in their cases
Eclipse4449
Member
You definitely understand what I’m trying to do so then in all seriousness should I buy a new console better suited for my needs and sell this one. I’m completely ok with the PGM solution. I have a lot to learn and at 60 years old I don’t know if I have 5 or 10 years to master all of this stuff lol
BTW, looking at all of the ins and outs on the back I don’t see a 1/4 headphone jack? I have both wired and Bluetooth the later has noise canceling
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
That doesn’t answer my question.
What mics are on the kit, and what are they mic’ing…make a list.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Isn’t the headphone jack on the front panel below the wrist rest?
And I’m not sure I can answer your question about what you should do because it seems like your last post contradicts itself. The “PGM solution” you say you’re okay with, limits you to having to sum your mics to 4 channels. It looks like you have a lot more mics than that, potentially, but I’m also not sure on that which is why I asked for clarity in my last post…but assuming you have more mics than 4 (and I’m guessing you have, like, 12 or more?), how are you okay with using the PGM groups when at the same time you say you think I understand what you are trying to do, and I think you are wanting each mic on its own track in the DAW, so you would either need to reduce your number of mics or have a console with more outputs. As a related aside, that’s a lot of mics on a kit. I’d hate trying to sorry out the phasing on the cymbal mics especially.
Eclipse4449
Member
Mic list
Overhead cymbals
CAD GXL1200BP X 5
High-hat
CAD GXL1200 (black)
Toms
PYLE (PDKM7) kit x2
Pdkm7-B x8
16”, 14” floor toms,
12”, 10” toms
10”, 8”, 6” roto Toms (likely 1 mic)
Kick
Pdkm7-A
18” Floor Tom
Pdkm7-A
Cowbell/block
SHURE PGA48
China cymbal
Pdkm7-C
Ride cymbal
Pdkm7-C
Pdkm7-C (spare)
No longer used
Samson mic kit
(Q) Tom x4
(Q) Kick x1
Attachments
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
You have…18 mics on your kit? No snare mic or mics? Why so many mics? And you have tons individually mic’ed AND you have a pair of mics to capture all the toms? Each to their own, but I’d never want to mic a kit up that way. You’re going to spend a lot of time trying to sort out the phase issues unless you have a tool in your DAW to help analyze that for you.
And back to the original question, yes if you want to have each of those mics on an individual track in your DAW you’re either going to have to make up a custom snake to use the insert sends as a pre-fade, pre-EQ direct outs on the M-224, or get a different console. And what audio interface are you using? It has to have at least as many channels as mic sources you want to simultaneously record. The 18i20 can do that, but do you have the hardware to convert 8 line level sources to ADAT Lightpipe and 2 line level sources to digital S/PDIF so you can actually use all 18 input channels on the 18i20?
And back to the original question, yes if you want to have each of those mics on an individual track in your DAW you’re either going to have to make up a custom snake to use the insert sends as a pre-fade, pre-EQ direct outs on the M-224, or get a different console. And what audio interface are you using? It has to have at least as many channels as mic sources you want to simultaneously record. The 18i20 can do that, but do you have the hardware to convert 8 line level sources to ADAT Lightpipe and 2 line level sources to digital S/PDIF so you can actually use all 18 input channels on the 18i20?
Last edited:
Eclipse4449
Member
I’m sorry this is a pain. I started buy all of this gear 10+ years ago. I have the Scarlett 18i20 but do not have the cables yet from the console to the interface but do have enough xlr for each mic.
Why so many mics? I don’t know any better, before I owned the mics I took masking tape and labeled each channel (not pictured is 3 keyboards, 2 6-strings. A 5-string and 4 string bass (channels 18-24) that tape with those labels compelled me to buy that many mics. As someone not knowing anything about the M-224 I thought just looking at it was everything I needed (however I did assume the M-224 was going to mix everything before it got to my audio interface (I mean how was it done 30+ years ago?
Anyway if I have way to many mics I could return 1 or both new mic kits as I just literally bought them.
Yes I did forget to mention my snare, it would use a Tom mic and one of the cheaper mics would be on one of the floor Toms or my 12 and 10 inch could share a mic on a stand
Attachments
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
It’s not a “pain”, so please don’t assume that, but it’s challenging to follow only because you’re working through some fundamentals here and I’m figuring that out as we go…so my questions are based around me trying to figure out what’s driving your actions so far and to either avoid stepping on your toes or help you sort some things out.
I want to make extra certain what you are wanting to track in your DAW…I’ve stated it at least a couple times now, and you’ve seemingly affirmed your intention is for each drum mic to be on its own separate track in your DAW…so…18 mics, 18 separate tracks. Can you tell me yes or no if that is correct? Is that what you’re wanting to do? I really want to understand if my assumption is correct because up to this point the most affirming thing you’ve stated to this is telling me I understand what it is you are wanting to do, but in your last post you contradicted that again by stating “…I did assume the M-224 was going to mix everything before it got to my audio interface…” SO…are you wanting to use the mixer to submix all those drum mics before they get to the DAW, or are you wanting each mic on its own track in the DAW? Which one? And if you don’t understand what I’m asking just say that so we can back it up and iron that out first.
How did they do it 30+ years ago? Well, first you need to understand there is a spectrum of how people do it and have done it more commonly since the late 1950s. And one end of that spectrum has stretched as the available track count grew over the decades, and increasing track counts was largely driven by the industry, not artists. It was for the benefit of the studio. That doesn’t mean wonderful music hasn’t been captured taking full advantage of the tools, but the industry pushed for more tracks because it made it easier to produce more in less time and make more money. Before the late 1950s most everything was in mono and artists or bands tracked live to mono. Stereo has been around since the 1930s, but it wasn’t popularized until the late 1950s. There could be multiple mics but those were summed to a mono mix and that was printed to tape or direct to disc in the studio, and then there was a shift in the late 1950s where you’d have the same process but mixed to stereo live during recording. Then came 3-track but it wasn’t so commonly used like we use multitracking today, it was developed more around left, center, right for large ensembles and that was then mixed to stereo. Then in the mid-ish 1960s 4-tracks became more common and creative techniques around using those 4-tracks for separate sources or creative editing started happening…and then the industry realized, since time is money, if they had more tracks, they didn’t have to wait for the whole band to be available to track, or for the whole band to do take after take if one member couldn’t perform a part right…8 tracks started cropping up…rhythm tracks could be done at night and the vocalist come in the next day or the following week…guitar parts later depending on the schedules of the studio and the band members. The multitracking boom wasn’t just about creative mixing or composition…it was really driven by time = money, and mostly about studios making more money in less time. By the latter half of the 1960s, 1967 I believe, we started seeing the first 16 track machines. Of course with all of this we started seeing mixing consoles grow to meet the demands of the tracking and mixing needs as multitrack track count grew. By the very early 1970s 16 tracks grew to 24 tracks. And we sit there for a decade or so. There were jaunts into 3” machines with higher track count but that never really took off…and in the late 1980s and early 1990s we saw some rare 2” machines with 32 tracks before digital systems and issues with tape in general cause a sharp decline in also recording…so to get more tracks synchronization systems developed and more sophisticated transports that could be locked together for 48 tracks or even more…and then digital audio tape systems came along with higher track counts on more narrow tape, and those could be synced…96 track systems, even more. As the project track counts grew and grew the obsession for isolating individual sources for more control grew. Individual or even multiple mics on drums and on certain cymbals for mixing and dynamics control and other processing techniques…and through the 1970s and into the 1980s development of more sophisticated punch-in faculties and editing capabilities so takes with errors could be salvaged and just erroneous passages re-recorded or even small flubs “spot-erased”…again the focus was on time = money. So what’s my point…my point is that 18 mics on a kit doesn’t automatically mean it sounds better…it means there’s more control over the mix, but you have to have the proper tools and abilities to take advantage of having the greater number of sources isolated onto individual tracks. If you don’t know what you’re doing or you don’t have the right tools, then you’re just adding unnecessary complexity to the project. Like the phase issue I’ve brought up a couple times. Sound takes time to reach its destination whether it’s your ear or a mic or whatever. If you have two mics that are picking up the same source, which happens all the time when mic’ing drums because they are loud and it’s impossible to isolate each mic…lots of bleed…differences in the timing of that source reaching multiple mics because of their varying distances from that source introduces phase distortion…comb filtering because of variation in the relative phase of the sound waves to each mic. And sound is very complex…and so are the phase distortion issues and effects. The more mics you have, the more exponentially challenging this becomes. So you have to start experimenting by inverting the phase on some of those sources. Your M-224 doesn’t have this feature. Your DAW probably does. But I would hate to try and sort that out with 18 mics on a kit…hate it. There are computer-based tools that can analyze this for you. But you can hear this when you dial in one mic soloed, get it where you want it sound-wise, and then you bring in one or more mics and now the first one doesn’t sound right. And now you’re chasing your tail. Multiply by 18 tails. Some of my best drum sounds came from 3 mics…I remember one I listen back to now that sounds great…2 mics. Typically I’d use about 8 mics on a 5 piece set. So these are just some things to think about. Now, again, if you’ve got an itch to have every drum and every cymbal mic’ed and you want to track it that way so you can experiment or learn, please let me be the last person to dissuade you. But if that’s not so much the case then you’re just making a lot of work for yourself AND creating requirements for unnecessary gear. How did they do it 30+ years ago? Well I can tell you what they DIDN’T do was look at they console they had, and after hooking up their guitars and keyboards, etc., count how many channels they had left and buy a mic for every open channel and point those at things until they’d used up all the channels. It’s important to think of the sound you want first, and then identify a good mic array to capture that sound, and then let that drive the equipment you need and how you set it up.
As it stands, with your 18i20, you can only track 8 channels at once. If you want to track more at once then you’ll need additional hardware…something that converts analog audio to ADAT, Lightpipe (that gets you to 16 channels into the DAW simultaneously), and something that converts analog audio to S/PDIF digital (and that’s 18 at once). So don’t just jump at what I’m telling you and return a mic kit because of something I said. Read up on the subject of drum kit mic’ing…watch some stuff on YouTube. Then decide what you want to do. And then you’ll have a better idea if you need to add more hardware and/or change your console. What you have now, with a custom snake (to use the insert jacks as pre-fade pre-EQ direct outs), would give you the ability to send raw signal tapped right after the trim controls to your DAW, and then use the rest of the console to monitor your sources and returns from the DAW. If it was me I’d start with what you have, 8 channels to the DAW and 10 back out, reduce the number of mics on the kit (maybe 7? One mic for the 10 & 12, one for the 14 & 16, one for the 18, one for kick and one for snare, and a pair of overhead mics…you could add one for hi-hat or the roto-toms…), get you wiring sorted out so you can actually start to use all this stuff, and keep the mics if you want in case you want to expand the number of mics you have setup…
Hopefully this is helpful and isn’t just adding to the confusion. But before you do anything you need to figure out how you’re going to interface the 18i20 with the console, get the wiring in order, and learn how to use the console, interface and your DAW. What DAW software are you using? It might be a good first step to just hook the mic straight to the 18i20 and get acclimated to the DAW software and multitracking and mixing in the box. You’re juggling a lot of things and it seems are new to recording and multitracking, at least as far as managing it yourself. A lot of us around here got started using relatively basic tools like a 4-track cassette portastudio, and grew from there with those fundamentals under our belt. You’re jumping into a much more complex pool equipment and process-wise and I can imagine it’s overwhelming. So maybe scale back by using what you already have to get some traction and build up from there.
I want to make extra certain what you are wanting to track in your DAW…I’ve stated it at least a couple times now, and you’ve seemingly affirmed your intention is for each drum mic to be on its own separate track in your DAW…so…18 mics, 18 separate tracks. Can you tell me yes or no if that is correct? Is that what you’re wanting to do? I really want to understand if my assumption is correct because up to this point the most affirming thing you’ve stated to this is telling me I understand what it is you are wanting to do, but in your last post you contradicted that again by stating “…I did assume the M-224 was going to mix everything before it got to my audio interface…” SO…are you wanting to use the mixer to submix all those drum mics before they get to the DAW, or are you wanting each mic on its own track in the DAW? Which one? And if you don’t understand what I’m asking just say that so we can back it up and iron that out first.
How did they do it 30+ years ago? Well, first you need to understand there is a spectrum of how people do it and have done it more commonly since the late 1950s. And one end of that spectrum has stretched as the available track count grew over the decades, and increasing track counts was largely driven by the industry, not artists. It was for the benefit of the studio. That doesn’t mean wonderful music hasn’t been captured taking full advantage of the tools, but the industry pushed for more tracks because it made it easier to produce more in less time and make more money. Before the late 1950s most everything was in mono and artists or bands tracked live to mono. Stereo has been around since the 1930s, but it wasn’t popularized until the late 1950s. There could be multiple mics but those were summed to a mono mix and that was printed to tape or direct to disc in the studio, and then there was a shift in the late 1950s where you’d have the same process but mixed to stereo live during recording. Then came 3-track but it wasn’t so commonly used like we use multitracking today, it was developed more around left, center, right for large ensembles and that was then mixed to stereo. Then in the mid-ish 1960s 4-tracks became more common and creative techniques around using those 4-tracks for separate sources or creative editing started happening…and then the industry realized, since time is money, if they had more tracks, they didn’t have to wait for the whole band to be available to track, or for the whole band to do take after take if one member couldn’t perform a part right…8 tracks started cropping up…rhythm tracks could be done at night and the vocalist come in the next day or the following week…guitar parts later depending on the schedules of the studio and the band members. The multitracking boom wasn’t just about creative mixing or composition…it was really driven by time = money, and mostly about studios making more money in less time. By the latter half of the 1960s, 1967 I believe, we started seeing the first 16 track machines. Of course with all of this we started seeing mixing consoles grow to meet the demands of the tracking and mixing needs as multitrack track count grew. By the very early 1970s 16 tracks grew to 24 tracks. And we sit there for a decade or so. There were jaunts into 3” machines with higher track count but that never really took off…and in the late 1980s and early 1990s we saw some rare 2” machines with 32 tracks before digital systems and issues with tape in general cause a sharp decline in also recording…so to get more tracks synchronization systems developed and more sophisticated transports that could be locked together for 48 tracks or even more…and then digital audio tape systems came along with higher track counts on more narrow tape, and those could be synced…96 track systems, even more. As the project track counts grew and grew the obsession for isolating individual sources for more control grew. Individual or even multiple mics on drums and on certain cymbals for mixing and dynamics control and other processing techniques…and through the 1970s and into the 1980s development of more sophisticated punch-in faculties and editing capabilities so takes with errors could be salvaged and just erroneous passages re-recorded or even small flubs “spot-erased”…again the focus was on time = money. So what’s my point…my point is that 18 mics on a kit doesn’t automatically mean it sounds better…it means there’s more control over the mix, but you have to have the proper tools and abilities to take advantage of having the greater number of sources isolated onto individual tracks. If you don’t know what you’re doing or you don’t have the right tools, then you’re just adding unnecessary complexity to the project. Like the phase issue I’ve brought up a couple times. Sound takes time to reach its destination whether it’s your ear or a mic or whatever. If you have two mics that are picking up the same source, which happens all the time when mic’ing drums because they are loud and it’s impossible to isolate each mic…lots of bleed…differences in the timing of that source reaching multiple mics because of their varying distances from that source introduces phase distortion…comb filtering because of variation in the relative phase of the sound waves to each mic. And sound is very complex…and so are the phase distortion issues and effects. The more mics you have, the more exponentially challenging this becomes. So you have to start experimenting by inverting the phase on some of those sources. Your M-224 doesn’t have this feature. Your DAW probably does. But I would hate to try and sort that out with 18 mics on a kit…hate it. There are computer-based tools that can analyze this for you. But you can hear this when you dial in one mic soloed, get it where you want it sound-wise, and then you bring in one or more mics and now the first one doesn’t sound right. And now you’re chasing your tail. Multiply by 18 tails. Some of my best drum sounds came from 3 mics…I remember one I listen back to now that sounds great…2 mics. Typically I’d use about 8 mics on a 5 piece set. So these are just some things to think about. Now, again, if you’ve got an itch to have every drum and every cymbal mic’ed and you want to track it that way so you can experiment or learn, please let me be the last person to dissuade you. But if that’s not so much the case then you’re just making a lot of work for yourself AND creating requirements for unnecessary gear. How did they do it 30+ years ago? Well I can tell you what they DIDN’T do was look at they console they had, and after hooking up their guitars and keyboards, etc., count how many channels they had left and buy a mic for every open channel and point those at things until they’d used up all the channels. It’s important to think of the sound you want first, and then identify a good mic array to capture that sound, and then let that drive the equipment you need and how you set it up.
As it stands, with your 18i20, you can only track 8 channels at once. If you want to track more at once then you’ll need additional hardware…something that converts analog audio to ADAT, Lightpipe (that gets you to 16 channels into the DAW simultaneously), and something that converts analog audio to S/PDIF digital (and that’s 18 at once). So don’t just jump at what I’m telling you and return a mic kit because of something I said. Read up on the subject of drum kit mic’ing…watch some stuff on YouTube. Then decide what you want to do. And then you’ll have a better idea if you need to add more hardware and/or change your console. What you have now, with a custom snake (to use the insert jacks as pre-fade pre-EQ direct outs), would give you the ability to send raw signal tapped right after the trim controls to your DAW, and then use the rest of the console to monitor your sources and returns from the DAW. If it was me I’d start with what you have, 8 channels to the DAW and 10 back out, reduce the number of mics on the kit (maybe 7? One mic for the 10 & 12, one for the 14 & 16, one for the 18, one for kick and one for snare, and a pair of overhead mics…you could add one for hi-hat or the roto-toms…), get you wiring sorted out so you can actually start to use all this stuff, and keep the mics if you want in case you want to expand the number of mics you have setup…
Hopefully this is helpful and isn’t just adding to the confusion. But before you do anything you need to figure out how you’re going to interface the 18i20 with the console, get the wiring in order, and learn how to use the console, interface and your DAW. What DAW software are you using? It might be a good first step to just hook the mic straight to the 18i20 and get acclimated to the DAW software and multitracking and mixing in the box. You’re juggling a lot of things and it seems are new to recording and multitracking, at least as far as managing it yourself. A lot of us around here got started using relatively basic tools like a 4-track cassette portastudio, and grew from there with those fundamentals under our belt. You’re jumping into a much more complex pool equipment and process-wise and I can imagine it’s overwhelming. So maybe scale back by using what you already have to get some traction and build up from there.
Eclipse4449
Member
“I want to make extra certain what you are wanting to track in your DAW…I’ve stated it at least a couple times now, and you’ve seemingly affirmed your intention is for each drum mic to be on its own separate track in your DAW…so…18 mics, 18 separate tracks. Can you tell me yes or no if that is correct?”
Yes, but after reading this message it would easier to use less mics, as a 10’ and 12’ Toms and 14’ and 16” can easily share a mic so can Cymbals be paired up. At then again Yes on their own track
“SO…are you wanting to use the mixer to submix all those drum mics before they get to the DAW, or are you wanting each mic on its own track in the DAW? Which one? And if you don’t understand what I’m asking just say that so we can back it up and iron that out first. “
Ok I don’t know which is better for what I’m trying to do.
What I’ll be trying to do is essentially changing the sound of each piece, or better said take away harshness, add reverb, and use the EQ and place pieces across the sound stage without buying electric drums.
I have each drum head tuned (by the professional installing the new heads) and made some tuning myself thereafter, and have dampening rings on the Toms so they sound good but my current environment is not great until I apply an acoustical product everywhere, so now is a good time to start understand the fundamentals as you mentioned. I just edited a very lengthy paragraph to this,
I want my rig to be just as important as any other instrument, more present at times or less present other times. I know great drummers can do this without help but I’m not a great drummer and use a little help LOL
“History of how it was done”
WOW THANK YOU!!!
“As it stands, with your 18i20”
You read my mind.
The new mic kits don’t have to use the clips like original kit I have, I can set a stand and mic the 2 toms and the floor toms exactly the way you mentioned above.
I could probably return one or both of those kits and use the CAD pencil mics for everything and reduce the count dramatically, and use those podcast mic stands hanging from my rafters in a different way.
“Hopefully this is helpful and isn’t just adding to the confusion”
I had a hacked version of Pro Tool for years but didn’t have an audio interface yet, I work at a place I can print stuff so I printed huge amounts “How to” docs and read them. Well that computer is in the garbage so currently none but would rather stay with Pro Tools because I have at least seen some of the stuff it can do. This is something I can purchase/Subscribe to now, I haven’t done it because I suppose I’m working through this all backwards, connecting the hardware.
One of the very first thing I bought was this wire setup I bought from my local music store, it has 4 XLRs. 2 input, 2 output (L&R) on one end and USB A on the other and a housing in the middle which is probably a DAC and was told it would connect my Analog mixer to a computer (That is how it was described at the time)
Thank you very much
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
Hi. You said this:
…and then you said this:
So here’s the thing…hopefully this will help you really understand the difference between discrete tracks (separate tracks) vs multiple sources that are mixed down or combined to less tracks…
Submixing all your cymbal mics together or your tom mics together is no different than combining the ingredients of a food recipe. You’re going to make cookies…you have flour, sugar, eggs, butter and some other stuff on the counter. When they are separate you can do stuff individually to each one…melt the butter…caramelize the sugar…etc. that’s like discrete tracks. What happens when you throw all the ingredients into a bowl and mix them together? You ain’t ever getting them separated again. If you want to add cinnamon to just the sugar, you can’t now because that change is going to apply to all the ingredients. That’s like when you mix sources together before you record. Your recorded tracks are combined signals and you can’t ever get those signals apart again, or apply a change to just one of the sources in the submix…that change will apply to all the signals in that submix. You want the flexibility to shape and tweak the individual sources of each of those mics on the kit after they are recorded. So you want all your mics on separate tracks. So you will need a way to get those individual mic sources onto their own individual tracks in your DAW. So you need cabling to get each mic to your console, cabling to get each channel from the console to the interface, an interface that can handle however many channels you are wanting to track at once, and in your present case if you go more than 8 you need additional hardware to take advantage of the 18i20’s digital inputs, because there are only 8 analog inputs, and then if you are wanting to, when it’s time to mixdown your multitrack project to a stereo master, use the analog console to do that mixing, you need cabling to go from your interface hardware to the console for each track, and if you have more than 10 tracks total in the DAW, you’ll also need additional hardware to take advantage of the 18i20’s digital outputs, because there are only 10 analog outputs.
What model are the CAD mics?
Do you have an external phantom power supply for condenser mics?
Take it from me…I’m not sure there really is a forwards or backwards approach to what you are doing…all the pieces have to be there for the process to roll, so it gets put together how it gets put together.
Are you positive the 18i20 will play nicely with ProTools? I think it does…I think it’s not like it used to be anymore for a long time but I stopped paying attention to ProTools many, many years ago, and back in the day you had to have proprietary hardware to work with the software, so I’m just promoting the question as a double-check.
But you’re not going to use that, right? I wouldn’t.
…and then you said this:
So here’s the thing…hopefully this will help you really understand the difference between discrete tracks (separate tracks) vs multiple sources that are mixed down or combined to less tracks…
Submixing all your cymbal mics together or your tom mics together is no different than combining the ingredients of a food recipe. You’re going to make cookies…you have flour, sugar, eggs, butter and some other stuff on the counter. When they are separate you can do stuff individually to each one…melt the butter…caramelize the sugar…etc. that’s like discrete tracks. What happens when you throw all the ingredients into a bowl and mix them together? You ain’t ever getting them separated again. If you want to add cinnamon to just the sugar, you can’t now because that change is going to apply to all the ingredients. That’s like when you mix sources together before you record. Your recorded tracks are combined signals and you can’t ever get those signals apart again, or apply a change to just one of the sources in the submix…that change will apply to all the signals in that submix. You want the flexibility to shape and tweak the individual sources of each of those mics on the kit after they are recorded. So you want all your mics on separate tracks. So you will need a way to get those individual mic sources onto their own individual tracks in your DAW. So you need cabling to get each mic to your console, cabling to get each channel from the console to the interface, an interface that can handle however many channels you are wanting to track at once, and in your present case if you go more than 8 you need additional hardware to take advantage of the 18i20’s digital inputs, because there are only 8 analog inputs, and then if you are wanting to, when it’s time to mixdown your multitrack project to a stereo master, use the analog console to do that mixing, you need cabling to go from your interface hardware to the console for each track, and if you have more than 10 tracks total in the DAW, you’ll also need additional hardware to take advantage of the 18i20’s digital outputs, because there are only 10 analog outputs.
What model are the CAD mics?
Do you have an external phantom power supply for condenser mics?
Take it from me…I’m not sure there really is a forwards or backwards approach to what you are doing…all the pieces have to be there for the process to roll, so it gets put together how it gets put together.
Are you positive the 18i20 will play nicely with ProTools? I think it does…I think it’s not like it used to be anymore for a long time but I stopped paying attention to ProTools many, many years ago, and back in the day you had to have proprietary hardware to work with the software, so I’m just promoting the question as a double-check.
But you’re not going to use that, right? I wouldn’t.
Eclipse4449
Member
you’ll need additional hardware…something that converts analog audio to ADAT, Lightpipe (that gets you to 16 channels into the DAW simultaneously), and something that converts analog audio to S/PDIF digital (and that’s 18 at once)
Is this something I should invest in right away?
So here’s the thing…hopefully this will help you really understand the difference between discrete tracks (separate tracks) vs multiple sources that are mixed down or combined to less tracks…
Submixing all your cymbal mics together or your tom mics together is no different than combining the ingredients of a food recipe. You’re going to make cookies…you have flour, sugar, eggs, butter and some other stuff on the counter. When they are separate you can do stuff individually to each one…melt the butter…caramelize the sugar…etc. that’s like discrete tracks. What happens when you throw all the ingredients into a bowl and mix them together? You ain’t ever getting them separated again. If you want to add cinnamon to just the sugar, you can’t now because that change is going to apply to all the ingredients. That’s like when you mix sources together before you record. Your recorded tracks are combined signals and you can’t ever get those signals apart again, or apply a change to just one of the sources in the submix…that change will apply to all the signals in that submix.
I understand, I want to add some sugar here and there lol. I want as much control as possible. Thanks for the explanation, you a very cool
You want the flexibility to shape and tweak the individual sources of each of those mics on the kit after they are recorded. So you want all your mics on separate tracks. So you will need a way to get those individual mic sources onto their own individual tracks in your DAW. So you need cabling to get each mic to your console, cabling to get each channel from the console to the interface, an interface that can handle however many channels you are wanting to track at once, and in your present case if you go more than 8 you need additional hardware to take advantage of the 18i20’s digital inputs, because there are only 8 analog inputs, and then if you are wanting to, when it’s time to mixdown your multitrack project to a stereo master, use the analog console to do that mixing, you need cabling to go from your interface hardware to the console for each track, and if you have more than 10 tracks total in the DAW, you’ll also need additional hardware to take advantage of the 18i20’s digital outputs, because there are only 10 analog outputs.
The hardware I currently have I knew is only the start I’m sure, I knew I needed more stuff just don’t know what I need. I know software/plugin will be needed to isolate each piece,
What model are the CAD mics?
Do you have an external phantom power supply for condenser mics?
CAD GXL1200BP and GXL1200
Oh Crap they all require Phantom power! Any suggestions or recommendations of what can handle 7 or 8 that need Phantom Power
It just another thing I did before not knowing what to do, Reviews said they are especially good for percussion instruments. I’m in too big of a hurry I guess.
I also just discovered the difference between my (2) CAD GXL1200 is Unidirectional and the (4) CAD GXL1200BP are Omnidirectional and Unidirectional but isn't an issue here.
I had a hacked version of Pro Tool for years but didn’t have an audio interface yet, I work at a place I can print stuff so I printed huge amounts “How to” docs and read them. Well that computer is in the garbage so currently none but would rather stay with Pro Tools because I have at least seen some of the stuff it can do. This is something I can purchase/Subscribe to now, I haven’t done it because I suppose I’m working through this all backwards, connecting the hardware.
Take it from me…I’m not sure there really is a forwards or backwards approach to what you are doing…all the pieces have to be there for the process to roll, so it gets put together how it gets put together.
Good to know lol
Are you positive the 18i20 will play nicely with ProTools? I think it does…I think it’s not like it used to be anymore for a long time but I stopped paying attention to ProTools many, many years ago, and back in the day you had to have proprietary hardware to work with the software, so I’m just promoting the question as a double-check.
I see the Scarlett 18i20 (3rd Gen) comes with Pro Tools First, just register the Scarlett and download the Apps. It also comes with Focusrite Control App which corrupted my output settings ( outputs like my sound Blast AE-7, built-in speakers on my monitors etc. vanished, I had to uninstall and clean up the registry to see them again, I eventually had success.
As for Pro Tools I'm not married to it. If there is something that gives me at least 24 tracks I could cut me teeth on that.
One of the very first thing I bought was this wire setup I bought from my local music store, it has 4 XLRs. 2 input, 2 output (L&R) on one end and USB A on the other and a housing in the middle which is probably a DAC and was told it would connect my Analog mixer to a computer (That is how it was described at the time)
But you’re not going to use that, right? I wouldn’t.
No way
Is this something I should invest in right away?
So here’s the thing…hopefully this will help you really understand the difference between discrete tracks (separate tracks) vs multiple sources that are mixed down or combined to less tracks…
Submixing all your cymbal mics together or your tom mics together is no different than combining the ingredients of a food recipe. You’re going to make cookies…you have flour, sugar, eggs, butter and some other stuff on the counter. When they are separate you can do stuff individually to each one…melt the butter…caramelize the sugar…etc. that’s like discrete tracks. What happens when you throw all the ingredients into a bowl and mix them together? You ain’t ever getting them separated again. If you want to add cinnamon to just the sugar, you can’t now because that change is going to apply to all the ingredients. That’s like when you mix sources together before you record. Your recorded tracks are combined signals and you can’t ever get those signals apart again, or apply a change to just one of the sources in the submix…that change will apply to all the signals in that submix.
I understand, I want to add some sugar here and there lol. I want as much control as possible. Thanks for the explanation, you a very cool
You want the flexibility to shape and tweak the individual sources of each of those mics on the kit after they are recorded. So you want all your mics on separate tracks. So you will need a way to get those individual mic sources onto their own individual tracks in your DAW. So you need cabling to get each mic to your console, cabling to get each channel from the console to the interface, an interface that can handle however many channels you are wanting to track at once, and in your present case if you go more than 8 you need additional hardware to take advantage of the 18i20’s digital inputs, because there are only 8 analog inputs, and then if you are wanting to, when it’s time to mixdown your multitrack project to a stereo master, use the analog console to do that mixing, you need cabling to go from your interface hardware to the console for each track, and if you have more than 10 tracks total in the DAW, you’ll also need additional hardware to take advantage of the 18i20’s digital outputs, because there are only 10 analog outputs.
The hardware I currently have I knew is only the start I’m sure, I knew I needed more stuff just don’t know what I need. I know software/plugin will be needed to isolate each piece,
What model are the CAD mics?
Do you have an external phantom power supply for condenser mics?
CAD GXL1200BP and GXL1200
Oh Crap they all require Phantom power! Any suggestions or recommendations of what can handle 7 or 8 that need Phantom Power
It just another thing I did before not knowing what to do, Reviews said they are especially good for percussion instruments. I’m in too big of a hurry I guess.
I also just discovered the difference between my (2) CAD GXL1200 is Unidirectional and the (4) CAD GXL1200BP are Omnidirectional and Unidirectional but isn't an issue here.
I had a hacked version of Pro Tool for years but didn’t have an audio interface yet, I work at a place I can print stuff so I printed huge amounts “How to” docs and read them. Well that computer is in the garbage so currently none but would rather stay with Pro Tools because I have at least seen some of the stuff it can do. This is something I can purchase/Subscribe to now, I haven’t done it because I suppose I’m working through this all backwards, connecting the hardware.
Take it from me…I’m not sure there really is a forwards or backwards approach to what you are doing…all the pieces have to be there for the process to roll, so it gets put together how it gets put together.
Good to know lol
Are you positive the 18i20 will play nicely with ProTools? I think it does…I think it’s not like it used to be anymore for a long time but I stopped paying attention to ProTools many, many years ago, and back in the day you had to have proprietary hardware to work with the software, so I’m just promoting the question as a double-check.
I see the Scarlett 18i20 (3rd Gen) comes with Pro Tools First, just register the Scarlett and download the Apps. It also comes with Focusrite Control App which corrupted my output settings ( outputs like my sound Blast AE-7, built-in speakers on my monitors etc. vanished, I had to uninstall and clean up the registry to see them again, I eventually had success.
As for Pro Tools I'm not married to it. If there is something that gives me at least 24 tracks I could cut me teeth on that.
One of the very first thing I bought was this wire setup I bought from my local music store, it has 4 XLRs. 2 input, 2 output (L&R) on one end and USB A on the other and a housing in the middle which is probably a DAC and was told it would connect my Analog mixer to a computer (That is how it was described at the time)
But you’re not going to use that, right? I wouldn’t.
No way
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sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
I wouldn’t make it a priority. We’ve already talked about reducing the number of mics on the kit. That reduction brings the count to 8 or less mics. Your interface has 8 analog inputs. Remember, the reason for adding boxes to the interface is to take advantage of more of its 18 in 20 out capabilities. But you don’t have cabling, a computer or DAW software. IMO there’s no sense in adding complexity to something you can’t even use yet. Like I said, I think it would be beneficial to learn by using what you have.
Plugins have nothing to do with having different sources on their own isolated track. That is determined by you connecting each mic to its own channel on the interface, either through the console or directly, and then in the software patching each of those channels to their own track.
And I’m going to encourage you again to not get distracted trying to figure out what stuff you need to record and play back umpteen tracks at once. You have a steep learning curve in front of you, so start with what you have (after getting the other necessary pieces like cabling, a computer, and DAW software). Honestly if I was you I would actually even take the analog console out of the picture for the time being. The 18i20 has monitoring capabilities onboard…if you try and use the analog console AND the interface and DAW software mixer from the get-go it may be overwhelming. Regardless you are going to have to become familiar with how to use the interface and the software you don’t have yet in order to record, so if it was me I’d get familiar with those pieces first and then later on incorporate other things like the analog console.
Well…a console with phantom power would do that…but backup…are you scaling back the number of mics or not? You’re not using the CAD mics on the snare, toms or kick, right? I thought you were going to use a pair for overhead mics, and maybe one on the hi-hat. That’s three. You can buy external phantom power supplies. OR…if you follow my advice and take the analog console out of the picture for now, the 18i20 has phantom power on each of the 8 mic inputs, switchable in groups of four. This is another reason to skip the analog console for now and just use the interface…less stuff to find and purchase and figure out how to use.
Forget the reviews. Look at the manual or what CAD says they are designed for. These are small diaphragm condenser (SDC) mics. That means they are more sensitive and generally capture more detail than dynamic mics. As far as a drum kit goes, SDC mics are generally used for cymbals and overhead placement. And this is what the literature tells you. They are not good for mic’ing other percussion voices on a drum kit like toms, snare or kick. Sometimes people use an SDC on the bottom side of the snare in conjunction with a dynamic mic up top, but for now maybe just stick with a dynamic mic up top.
I’m not sure where you are getting your information. A mic can’t be unidirectional and omnidirectional at the same time. Some mics have switchable patterns, and so can be one or the other (or figure 8 which is another pickup pattern). But your CAD mics are not switchable. They are cardioid pattern, which is directional. And all your GXL 1200 mics are the same. The “BP” just means black polished finish. They are all unidirectional mics. And that’s what you want. You do not want omnidirectional mics on a drum set generally speaking.
Okay. Good to know the 18i20 is a 3rd generation version. And I agree it will work with ProTools. And pretty much any DAW software these days will have 24 or more tracks. Most are unlimited tracks, only limited by your hardware specs…data bussing and processing capabilities of your computer.
Eclipse4449
Member
Huge smile on my face from this post. Rearranging info here a bit for purpose of focus. We are getting there, Thank you!
I watched 2 different drum mic’ing videos last night, a large kit setup(about 12 mics) and small kit setup(about 5 mics), I focused on placement, distances and angles etc..
And I’m going to encourage you again to not get distracted trying to figure out what stuff you need to record and play back umpteen tracks at once. You have a steep learning curve in front of you, so start with what you have (after getting the other necessary pieces like cabling, a computer, and DAW software). Honestly if I was you I would actually even take the analog console out of the picture for the time being. The 18i20 has monitoring capabilities onboard…if you try and use the analog console AND the interface and DAW software mixer from the get-go it may be overwhelming. Regardless you are going to have to become familiar with how to use the interface and the software you don’t have yet in order to record, so if it was me I’d get familiar with those pieces first and then later on incorporate other things like the analog console.
I have an M-224 case, it’ll be packed away nice tonight.
Now because the Console is out of the picture I would have the cabling needed, I have about 20ish xlr male to xlr female cables various lengths, at least half of them 25’.
I will likely have to move my intel I9 processor ram maxed with ssd drives PC closer to my kit just so I’ll have better cable management. My Yamaha HS5 (2) are connected to the back of my 18i20 and I can hear everything from my PC. I bought the foam pads to set them on and have them place on either side of 2 large curved monitors, my chair sits perfectly in the sweet spot (had a moment when I heard them for the first time)
Mics
If at all possible I will setup the mics this weekend and cable what I can, identifying the kick is connected to channel and share Mics where I can. I visioning the
Kick mic (channel 1) comes from the mic kit
10” & 12” (channel 2) tom mic from mic kit, (boom stand)
14” & 16” (channel 3) tom mic from mic kit, (boom stand)
Snare (Channel 4) from the mic kit, clipped on
Hi-Hat (channel 5) CAD (Boom stand)
Left 2 cymbals (channel 6) CAD (Aerial Boom)
Right cymbal moving with the Left 2 cymbals replacing the China
Ride Cymbal (channel 7) CAD (Boom Stand)
18" Floor Tom (Channel 8) clipped on
HOW DOES THIS LOOK?
Roto Toms and the China cymbal as these can come in later if needed
Regarding the 3 cymbals on the left and the Ride on the right , should the mic be horizontal to them aiming across the tops or high above centered?
I will install Pro Tools that comes with the Scarlett asap and familiarize myself with channel creation but probably won’t get the actual channels created in the DAW just in case.
I watched 2 different drum mic’ing videos last night, a large kit setup(about 12 mics) and small kit setup(about 5 mics), I focused on placement, distances and angles etc..
And I’m going to encourage you again to not get distracted trying to figure out what stuff you need to record and play back umpteen tracks at once. You have a steep learning curve in front of you, so start with what you have (after getting the other necessary pieces like cabling, a computer, and DAW software). Honestly if I was you I would actually even take the analog console out of the picture for the time being. The 18i20 has monitoring capabilities onboard…if you try and use the analog console AND the interface and DAW software mixer from the get-go it may be overwhelming. Regardless you are going to have to become familiar with how to use the interface and the software you don’t have yet in order to record, so if it was me I’d get familiar with those pieces first and then later on incorporate other things like the analog console.
I have an M-224 case, it’ll be packed away nice tonight.
Now because the Console is out of the picture I would have the cabling needed, I have about 20ish xlr male to xlr female cables various lengths, at least half of them 25’.
I will likely have to move my intel I9 processor ram maxed with ssd drives PC closer to my kit just so I’ll have better cable management. My Yamaha HS5 (2) are connected to the back of my 18i20 and I can hear everything from my PC. I bought the foam pads to set them on and have them place on either side of 2 large curved monitors, my chair sits perfectly in the sweet spot (had a moment when I heard them for the first time)
Mics
If at all possible I will setup the mics this weekend and cable what I can, identifying the kick is connected to channel and share Mics where I can. I visioning the
Kick mic (channel 1) comes from the mic kit
10” & 12” (channel 2) tom mic from mic kit, (boom stand)
14” & 16” (channel 3) tom mic from mic kit, (boom stand)
Snare (Channel 4) from the mic kit, clipped on
Hi-Hat (channel 5) CAD (Boom stand)
Left 2 cymbals (channel 6) CAD (Aerial Boom)
Right cymbal moving with the Left 2 cymbals replacing the China
Ride Cymbal (channel 7) CAD (Boom Stand)
18" Floor Tom (Channel 8) clipped on
HOW DOES THIS LOOK?
Roto Toms and the China cymbal as these can come in later if needed
Regarding the 3 cymbals on the left and the Ride on the right , should the mic be horizontal to them aiming across the tops or high above centered?
I will install Pro Tools that comes with the Scarlett asap and familiarize myself with channel creation but probably won’t get the actual channels created in the DAW just in case.
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