Tascam ES-50, ES-51

Victory Pete said:
The IF-1000 is a Tascam unit, it is mentioned in the MTS-1000's manual. actually the manual is for both units. Parallel and serial are mentioned in all the Tascam manuals, I dont know the significance of either.
VP
Click to expand...

Parallel- a separate wire going from master to slave for each command. One wire for stop,one wire for play etc.
Serial- a single pair of wires that sends data packets from the master to the slave, which decodes them to tell the slave what to do. Like your computer keyboard
The ES-50/51 has no way to directly control the MSR/TSR serially,though there is a connector on the back of both the ES-50 and the MSR/TSR for parallel control-transport functions only.
 
I found my copies of the original ES-50 Master and Slave cables I got from Tascam, as well as the re-worked copies. Let me know if you still need them. Send me a PM.
 
Sweetbeats, do you still happen to have the original ES-50 Master and Slave cable layouts from Tascam, as well as the re-worked copies?

I just bought an ES-50 / ES-51 and am trying to slave a 388. I’m also thinking of trying a Pro-Tools sync via a MOTU A/V unit. <fingers crossed>
 
I'll have to dig for them.

Trying to slave a 388 to what?

And with the ProTools setup are you talking about using the 388 as the code master through the MOTU?

You will not be able to use the ES-50 to slave the 388 to a DAW. The ES-50 was made before such things as DAWs and in order to run the "SETUP" procedure successfully, the ES-50 expects to have dynamic feedback from two mechanical tape transports, and it won't have what it is looking for if the sync array involves a tape machine and a DAW. As a result you will not get the ES-50 to complete the "SETUP" process. You will be able to get the 388 to lock to the DAW via SMPTE timecode, but as soon as you locate the DAW "transport" to different point in the timeline either by forwarding or rewining the timeline, scrubbing, or stopping and starting at a new point, the 388 will go into a runaway state; it will never stop at the new point and lock because it will be looking for tach pulse the DAW can't provide. If you want to slave the tape machine to the DAW you'll need to find a synchronizer sophisticated enough to do that like a TimeLine Micro Lynx. If you are wanting to run the 388 as the master, then you can use your MOTU, you don't need any fancy cables OR the ES-50...much more simple, but not the correct way to sync a tape machine to DAW AFAIC...your digital clock will be subject to the minor fluctuations and imperfections of the tape transport and either add or subtract samples to your digital audio to stay in sync, or in the case of Cubase it just won't really sync...the DAW will actually be freewheeling once both transports are in play and there may be drift as a result.

The big question...why are you wanting to sync your 388? If its just for the thrill of mating two chronologically disparate technologies, I *totally* get that...knock yourself out. If that's NOT your reason, then there is likely a simple solution that will accomplish what you want but avoid some pitfalls.

Your turn.
 
Thanks for the quick response. :)

I read all 47 pages of your 58-OB story tonight. Wow. I think we may be trying to do the same thing, so I'm grateful for all the work you documented here.

The reason I was hoping to use the ES-50/ES-51 was to have my 388 record more than 8 tracks. I want to record 7 tracks (track 8 for SMPTE), sync the 388 to ProTools as Master using a MOTU Midi Timepiece, dump to PT, record another 7 tracks, dump to Pro Tools, etc.

The 388 sounds really special for punk rock stuff, so wanted to keep the sound across a 24-track recording.

Since the 388 doesn't have dedicated Play and Record heads, repro live-dumping to Pro Tools isn't an option (I do that with my Otari MX-70 and other decks).

In your 58-OB story thread you never came back around after talking to Jim at Tascam, so I assumed you were stuck at the no-tach-from-Master issue. You had said that you were going to restore a 48(?) to see if you could complete the setup...nothing came of that other than discovering the Master needed to be sending tach messages on fast-wind, huh?

Any bits of hopeful info you received that I could pick up the trail with? You got so f%&$in' close, dude. I feel like there's something that can be done...
 
Is there any way to trick the ES-50 by connecting a second deck as Master just so it can complete the setup and has a tach signal present when needed? And feed the TC directly to the SMPTE Input on the ES-50 anyway?

I imagine you've already tried a bunch of versions of this...

...you said above the 388
will never stop at the new point and lock because it will be looking for tach pulse the DAW can't provide.
Click to expand...

Do you happen to have any info on what this tach pulse is that is expected? A single pulse, a series of pulses like a signature from the Master machine, a SMPTE pulse-string, or something else?
 
Bottom line:

If you want the DAW to be the master in a tape machine/DAW sync array, the ES-50 is the wrong synchronizer for you. But let’s step aside that for a second...what you are describing you are wanting to do is just a simple setup where the 388 is the master machine...just slave PT to the SMPTE stripe on track 8 of the 388...load the 7 tracks, dump them over...just like you are saying. Why go to the trouble in this case of trying to slave the 388?

And no there was no further outcome from the 58 or a 48...any machine. It’s not the machine that’s the issue, it’s the ES-50. It’s a quality unit but it will not work. It was designed to work with multiple mechanical transports. The tach pulse is, in the case of the 388, generated by the tach roller...the same one that drives the tape footage counter. There is a disc on the back of it that is sectioned black and silver and it triggers a photo-sensor that goes to the circuitry that generates the pulse. The synchronizer “listens” to the timecode stripe, but when you go into fast-wind and the tape is lifted away from the heads by the lifters, it can no longer “hear” the timecode...because of other control signals that propagate over the sync cabling the ES-50 knows the master is in fast-wind mode so it switches to monitoring the tach pulse for a coarse idea of where the tape position is, and then when you drop back into play the slave scrubs to fine tune the position and lock in. I suppose if you could know the type and nature of the pulse you could find some way to try and stripe that in the DAW, but then you’d have to be able to monitor that while fast-winding the DAW, meaning you could never just click to a different timeline location, you’d have to scrub the DAW at all times or the 388 would go into runaway mode. What a PITA that would be...and sure you could connect a second tape machine to the ES-50 to get it to finish the setup procedure, but it will STILL be looking for a tach pulse whenever it loses timecode signal. And you’d have to build both the master and slave cables just to do your “fool the ES-50” procedure...trying to source parts and build synchronizer cables is the greatest challenge of trying to setup a tape sync system if there is a slave ATR in the mix. I’m telling you...Trying to make the ES-50 do what you are wanting it to do is like wanting your 388 to play Blu Ray. If you are bent on slaving the 388 to your DAW, you need to ditch the ES-50 and get something like a Timeline Micro Lynx. That’s what I ended up doing. It’s where I should have started...thing of beauty.
 
...just slave PT to the SMPTE stripe on track 8 of the 388...load the 7 tracks, dump them over...
Click to expand...

I've read that the digitized audio suffers due to the tiny changes in sample rate that happen in ProTools as it tries to follow tape sync. DrBill got blue in the face explaining (gearslutz 117377-syncing-pt-mix-mtr90-tape-deck-pro-advice-needed-2) that the right way to sync was to have the tape chase the house sync (PT in my case).

I use an Antelope Orion that has a solid clock and didn't want to mess with that, but I'll do some tests and see what it sounds like. Maybe it'll be fine for the 388 as it's lo-fi anyway.

...no micro lynx's on ebay at the moment, so will have to keep looking. :)

Thanks again for the help. ES-50-wise, you're the master. Please let me know if you dig up your Tascam cable diagram...at this point I'd like to at least make the cable to connect these units.
 
...just stumbled on your comments in the Tascam BR-20T Story... posts talking about the Micro Lynx. That'll make for some nice morning reading ;)

So the Micro Lynx will control the 388 and sync it to my Pro Tools clock (I have Word Clock or optical ADAT out of an Antelope Orion), correct?

Thanks again...
 
[MENTION=203762]Ninopelo29[/MENTION] I’ll pull up the cable schematics...will post here when I find them and also PM you with a DropBox link.

Whether or not you’ll be able to hear the sample correction when the DAW is slaved is certainly debatable. I doubt I’d be able to hear it. I just really don’t like the idea of the digital audio being messed with, especially when you have a nice clock.
 
Thank you so much. Looks to be exactly what I need. :)

I was laying in bed last night with the manual thinking about how the ES-50 could work in my situation. I've already purchased the ES-50 / ES-51 and may not be able to return them, so I'm invested in these lovely ladies.

I'd like to record multitrack on my 388 -> dump to DAW -> record another bunch of tracks on the 388 -> dump to DAW with the 388 chasing the DAW's clock -> repeat.
[MENTION=79692]sweetbeats[/MENTION]: do you think the following would work? (until I get a proper Timeline Micro Lynx):

1. Record 8 tracks on the 388 normally
2. Dump to DAW with no syncing - just straight dump
3. Create/import a SMPTE track into a new track in the DAW (this can be a 50-minute SMPTE audio file that can be reused in all projects of this kind - maybe even as part of a template so it gets auto-imported in)
4. On a new tape, stripe SMPTE on track 8 across the whole tape (I suppose you could do this to all your tapes ahead of time so this is already done)
5. Create a new mono mix track in the DAW
6. Go to the beginning of the tape and the beginning of the DAW session and get the 388 to chase the SMPTE in the DAW using the ES-50 and record the mono mix, in sync, on track 1
7. Record new performances to tape on tracks 2-7 (no DAW involved here, just musicians tracking over the mono mix on the tape)
8. Once the new tracking is finished on the tape, go to the beginning of the tape and the beginning of the DAW session and get the 388 to chase the SMPTE in the DAW using the ES-50
9. Dump all new 388 tracks to DAW in one pass (on separate DAW tracks) from beginning to end with no timeline jumping on the DAW timeline
10. Repeat steps 5-9

This would probably be my workflow anyway. I would like to be on the 388 the majority of the time I'm tracking. Once the tracks are in the DAW and tracking is over, though, I can do analog or digital mixing. I can also reuse all the tapes for future sessions.

It's not the super-cool full-sync solution I was imagining, but it should let me dump new tracks recorded on the 388 to chase-sync to the DAW clock.

I haven't gotten the 388/SMPTE sync cable made yet so I don't know if any of this will work. Still need to test.

Can I ask: do you think this workflow would work? Also, when does the syncing go crazy? When you move the DAW timeline and hit play too far forward or back? How far is too far? Are there any tricks to getting the most usable response?

Thanks again for all your help!!
 
So, your post hurts my brain a little.

Why are you dumping a mono mix back to the 388? Normally what would happen if you’re doing the whole track and dump, track and dump thing is you fill your tracks, dump them over to the DAW, then setup a cue mix straight from the DAW and the talent monitors that while filling the next batch of tracks on the tape machine...rinse and repeat. By doing it the way you are outlining, you are (I think...this is where the brain starts to hurt), introducing compound opportunities for mechanical drift error. If the tape machine is synchronized to the DAW, like, you record your timecode on a DAW track and a tape track at the same time, then the tape machine is always going to lock to that same reference...the audio on the tape will always be in sync with the audio in the DAW as you transfer tracks over.

And I think you can probably get by with the ES-50, it’s just going to be somewhat inconvenient because you will always have to find some way to maintain timecode signal from the 388 to the ES-50. If the ES-50 handles and communicates with the 388 the same way it did with my 58, you’ll have the same issue. As soon as you jump the timeline in the DAW even a small amount, the ES-50 goes “oop the master machine is in fast-wind!”, and then it is looking for tach pulses from the master, but the DAW can’t provide those signals. So it tells the slave machine to just go hunting. I can’t recall how deep I got into experimenting. You probably saw this video already, but maybe this will help you fill in the blanks on the situation and maybe even how you would handle it:

YouTube

I think I would setup a locate points in the DAW as needed, definitely at the beginning of the song, and at punch points if necessary, and then always setup the same points on the ES-51 so I could at least manually jump the slave transport to those timeline points, but what I don’t know is, since I didn’t get to the point of using the ES-50/51 as an autolocator, I don’t know if it’s still going to make the slave transport go into a runaway state since it’s in a sync relationship...like you can use the ES-50/51 as an autolocator for a single tape machine, but I think that’s for the machine that is the master machine. I don’t know if that works for the slave machine. And the 388 doesn’t have a library wind function or scrubbing ability, so you’re going to have to experiment with how you help the ES-50 stay in touch with the timecode when it’s putting the tape machine into fast wind. And that’s likely to inflict increased wear and tear on the unobtanium headstack of your 388. Ultimately if, in your workflow, you are always going back to the beginning of the song, you likely can record your tracks, when you get to the stopping point hit STOP on the DAW and the 388 will stop, you RTZ the DAW to the beginning of your song, and you have the beginning of the song as 00:00 on the 388 so you can RTZ that, and then the position of the timecode on the 388 and on the DAW will hopefully be close enough so that when you press PLAY on the DAW the 388 doesn’t runaway.

I think the TimeLine Micro Lynx must work in this situation where the ES-50 does not, because maybe it monitors tach pulses on the slave machine to locate the slave machine rather than listening for tach pulses from the master. That’s just an hypothesis. I’d have to do some reading to get an idea if I’m right. All I know is it works. I think you’ve seen the video of the BR-20 I had chase-locking to Cubase...I stopped the transports, clicked way ahead on the Cubase timeline and pressed PLAY and the Micro Lynx put the BR-20 into FFWD and raced it ahead as quickly as it could, and then it knew via tach pulse it was getting close, slowed the transport down, and then when it knew it was even closer it slowed the transport down even further and dropped the lifters to monitor timecode, sweep-sweep-sweep and then quickly into PLAY mode and was locked and resolved to the DAW within a couple seconds. *boom*. And all this occurred while Cubase was rolling. The ES-50 is not capable of providing that control. Again, not bashing the ES-50. It is a nice piece of hardware. But when it was designed and built there was no concept of a master machine with no tach pulse...the sync world that synchronizer was made in was full of tape machines...MIDI was just rising up and finding its place I believe. The Micro Lynx incorporates MIDI. That’s why it accommodates a DAW as a member of the sync array. You don’t even stripe a track in the DAW with timecode, but rather output MTC via a MIDI interface, and connect a MIDI cable to the Micro Lynx system unit.
 
I have nothing to add in your quest for a solution.. but I do love your videos.

In the video you pan up a rack on the right hand side and I can see what looks like a pair of Tascam PE-40s. and then three U of..something. What else lives in that rack?
 
sr71rules said:
I have nothing to add in your quest for a solution.. but I do love your videos.

In the video you pan up a rack on the right hand side and I can see what looks like a pair of Tascam PE-40s. and then three U of..something. What else lives in that rack?
Click to expand...

I had to look...that video is from over 12 years ago I think...its funny...almost nearly everything in that video I no longer have. But the units above the PE-40s are three ART TCS dual compressors..."TCS" for Twin Compressor System:

ART TCS

Its a budget unit...I haven't actually used them a lot, but that's mainly due to not using a lot of my stuff a lot...life takes priority...anyway, they're pretty neat for what they are...I don't find a lot about them good or bad, and I don't see them for sale very much...not sure if that's because they weren't around that long or if people actually hold onto them? But they are pretty versatile. I think what I actually liked mine for the most was as a bass DI and inline dynamics processor. And I seem to recall getting the schematics from ART at one point and after looking at them think "hm...this is actually pretty neat." I've found ART has made some stuff over the years with some surprising inclusions in the design for the money. I have an old Tube MP OPL single channel mic/instrument preamp that has been one of the handiest little pieces of gear I have...a real problem-solver and sounds nice too. I guess there are mods out there for them.

Anyway, I still actually have those three TCS units around here somewhere...I think I intended on selling a couple off at some point since I haven't found the need to have that many and have two Ashly CL52E compressors that work better for my application. But that's what those are in the rack. And then above that in the top of the rack I *think* is an old BBE 462...that was my FIRST piece of rack-mount gear. I also don't use that very much, but it is in mint condition, and I've used it for certain things here and there over the years...they aren't worth much...I opened it up once and its nicely built, was made before surface-mount construction took over, and has proprietary chips in it...so it stays...
 
ES-50 Slave IF cable

I have an es-50 without cables, and I'd like to sync my Tascam tsr-8 to Daw. I've watched your video, and read the threads, and I've read the manuals and I've come to the conclusion that es-50 didn't work with you 58 because for the es-50 to do code only, it needs to be able to read timecode in fast wind motions. Your machine retracts the tape, which is probably better for the heads, however, tsr8 always puts out signal on track 8 in fast wind motion (when sync lock button is pushed, also turns off defeats dbx).

The accessory 1 37 pin dsub on the back of tsr8 is the same and br 20. Do you have a digram to make the slave if cable for this connection? I've been coming up pretty short in trying to find this cable diagram. I don't even want to list the avenues I've tried.

Best,
T







sweetbeats said:
[MENTION=203762]Ninopelo29[/MENTION] I’ll pull up the cable schematics...will post here when I find them and also PM you with a DropBox link.

Whether or not you’ll be able to hear the sample correction when the DAW is slaved is certainly debatable. I doubt I’d be able to hear it. I just really don’t like the idea of the digital audio being messed with, especially when you have a nice clock.
Click to expand...
 
Tascammyaf said:
...I've watched your video, and read the threads, and I've read the manuals and I've come to the conclusion that es-50 didn't work with you 58 because for the es-50 to do code only, it needs to be able to read timecode in fast wind motions...
Click to expand...

Hi there.

So, I’m not sure specifically how you reached your conclusion, but I believe it is incorrect. In fast-wind mode, or when anything happens with the master machine the ES-50 *perceives* as fast-wind mode, it is not still looking for timecode. It switches to utilizing tach pulses off the tach roller of the master machine. So that’s the problem if you are using the ES-50 to slave a tape machine to a DAW. The DAW does not produce tach pulse signal when you change timeline position. It’s not a matter of the ES-50 needing to read the timecode from the slave machine in modes other than PLAY.
 
Thanks fir getting back,
It states several times in the manuals that it can do code only sync. In the case of a code only master, pressing stop on the daw shouldn’t make the Go hunting. It’s setting a specific location that your machine can’t locate because the manual also states that to do code only your machine has to be able to read in fast wind. I’m sure you manually calibrated with the es-51, but fir the es-50’s auto cal, in code only it’s your 58 that couldn’t do it, not the daw. In any case; I saw your diagrams fir slave I/f interfaced with Tascam 48’s 38 pin. The 38 pin is almost identical to the accessory 1 37 pin dsub, so I see how to convert that part. What I don’t know is if there are specific wires to snip on the es-50 side (or not) because your schematic was a 38 pin. I have a tsr8 tsr uses accessory 1 port like br-20. Do you have any info?
Best,
T






sweetbeats said:
Hi there.

So, I’m not sure specifically how you reached your conclusion, but I believe it is incorrect. In fast-wind mode, or when anything happens with the master machine the ES-50 *perceives* as fast-wind mode, it is not still looking for timecode. It switches to utilizing tach pulses off the tach roller of the master machine. So that’s the problem if you are using the ES-50 to slave a tape machine to a DAW. The DAW does not produce tach pulse signal when you change timeline position. It’s not a matter of the ES-50 needing to read the timecode from the slave machine in modes other than PLAY.
Click to expand...
 
I don't. I only have for the 38-pin ELCO. You would have to contact Tascam and see if they have that documentation. There's nothing in the TSR-8 manual for ACCESSORY 1 connections? It may be a tough thing to find because the ES-50 was out of production before the TSR-8 was in production, and the MTS-1000 was the Tascam synchronizer of choice for the TSR-8 as far as Tascam was concerned...I don't think they were anticipating people using the ES-50 with the TSR-8...the ES-50 was, for all intents and purposes, "obsolete" by the time the TSR-8 was on the market.

And I understand what you are saying about the code only master...but you may still run into the same thing I did...I recall I arrived at the conclusion to run the ES-50 in code-only master mode, but it *still* wants to complete the "SETUP" procedure with two analog tape recorders connected. I guess you would, if you could find a way to build the interface cable, see if you can just bypass the SETUP procedure, put it in code-only master mode and happily sync away. I really have no idea if this would work, and I wish I could help on the cabling issue, but years ago I obtained all the cable diagrams I could from Tascam, and it was just the SLAVE I/F and MASTER I/F cables from the cinch sockets on the ES-50 to 38-pin ELCO at the other end. I think if you can correlate pin-to-pin between the SLAVE I/F diagram to the pinout on the 37-pin DSUB, it may still work as diagrammed on the SLAVE I/F cable schematic, but, again, I really don't know.

[EDIT]

I'm kind of boggled at all of the activity regarding the ES-50 lately...like, there have been the posts here, and also a number of comments and other contacts through my video on YouTube...maybe its just because I actually put the video up on YouTube relatively recently even though the video was captured and I was messing with the ES-50 over a decade ago...like, it seems like there is a rash of people suddenly with ES-50s trying to make them work...maybe people are just finding them on the cheap and thinking they will work? All I know is it was a disappointing reality to me that, for all the quality there is in an ES-50/51 setup, it was not designed in a world where DAWs existed, and the bottom line is if you want to use it in that way I believe you will be routinely incorporating work-arounds in your work flow, which would drive me nuts...and when I sold the ES-50/51 setup and got the TimeLine Micro Lynx I was 100% like "Ahhhh THIS is what I needed!"
 
Thanks for posting that diagram back when you did, and thanks for getting back.
Microlynx looks pretty awesome. Tsr-8 was definitely made to work with the es-50 via its parallel accessory 1 port. It explicitly states so in tsr8's manual. I also have the listing of the 37 pins from said manual. Its ALSO made to work with ats-500 and Mts-1000 via serial accessory 2. I spoke to tascam and... things have changed perhaps since last you've spoken with them. I wouldn't expect much from them. Thats how I obtained the user and service manuals for es-50 though. Anywho..the 38 and the 37 pin are 99% percent the same thing and I've converted from your graphic. There are some side notes about snipping wires that perhaps I will just have to experiment with. In that video you also had a es-51 which means you could manually calibrate instead of auto. The real reason it failed though is because in code only, the es-50 needs to see timecode in fast winding times. Code always disappears when (in music applications) when master is stopped. If I recall, pressing stop didn't make your machine go wild hunting, its that it didn't know where its own self was while fast winding to a place you clicked.
Anyways, thanks for the help.

Best,
T






sweetbeats said:
I don't. I only have for the 38-pin ELCO. You would have to contact Tascam and see if they have that documentation. There's nothing in the TSR-8 manual for ACCESSORY 1 connections? It may be a tough thing to find because the ES-50 was out of production before the TSR-8 was in production, and the MTS-1000 was the Tascam synchronizer of choice for the TSR-8 as far as Tascam was concerned...I don't think they were anticipating people using the ES-50 with the TSR-8...the ES-50 was, for all intents and purposes, "obsolete" by the time the TSR-8 was on the market.

And I understand what you are saying about the code only master...but you may still run into the same thing I did...I recall I arrived at the conclusion to run the ES-50 in code-only master mode, but it *still* wants to complete the "SETUP" procedure with two analog tape recorders connected. I guess you would, if you could find a way to build the interface cable, see if you can just bypass the SETUP procedure, put it in code-only master mode and happily sync away. I really have no idea if this would work, and I wish I could help on the cabling issue, but years ago I obtained all the cable diagrams I could from Tascam, and it was just the SLAVE I/F and MASTER I/F cables from the cinch sockets on the ES-50 to 38-pin ELCO at the other end. I think if you can correlate pin-to-pin between the SLAVE I/F diagram to the pinout on the 37-pin DSUB, it may still work as diagrammed on the SLAVE I/F cable schematic, but, again, I really don't know.

[EDIT]

I'm kind of boggled at all of the activity regarding the ES-50 lately...like, there have been the posts here, and also a number of comments and other contacts through my video on YouTube...maybe its just because I actually put the video up on YouTube relatively recently even though the video was captured and I was messing with the ES-50 over a decade ago...like, it seems like there is a rash of people suddenly with ES-50s trying to make them work...maybe people are just finding them on the cheap and thinking they will work? All I know is it was a disappointing reality to me that, for all the quality there is in an ES-50/51 setup, it was not designed in a world where DAWs existed, and the bottom line is if you want to use it in that way I believe you will be routinely incorporating work-arounds in your work flow, which would drive me nuts...and when I sold the ES-50/51 setup and got the TimeLine Micro Lynx I was 100% like "Ahhhh THIS is what I needed!"
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top