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Greykitkat36
New member
Let me rephrase my question so it doesnt sound stupid...
On The Tascam 424 mkIII 4 track cassette recorder? How can you record 5 instruments. My band wants to do this
Track 1- Vocals (Direct)
Track 2- Rythmn Guitar (Direct)
Track 3- Lead Guitar (Direct)
Track 4- Drums (Direct)
Track 5- you cannot record, so how can we get bass on our recording? (He might be added later, and this is a "Live" recording).
On The Tascam 424 mkIII 4 track cassette recorder? How can you record 5 instruments. My band wants to do this
Track 1- Vocals (Direct)
Track 2- Rythmn Guitar (Direct)
Track 3- Lead Guitar (Direct)
Track 4- Drums (Direct)
Track 5- you cannot record, so how can we get bass on our recording? (He might be added later, and this is a "Live" recording).
DigitalSmigital
A slice of analog pie?
Oh, in a live situation! How are you gonna mic the drums? This is the only variable you haven't cleared up, and I think we need to know that. If you don't have an outboard mixer, you are out of luck! Do you have a PA?
Do you know the difference between buss mode and direct mode?
Do you know the difference between buss mode and direct mode?
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Greykitkat36
New member
DigitalSmigital said:
No we do not have a PA. No, I do not have an outboard mixer. We are micing the drums with one mic overhead. I was thinking about putting him the bass in Channel 6, and record track 4 with bass overdubbing the drums.
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Greykitkat36
New member
I think I know the difference between direct and Buss mode. Buss is when you focus one channel on one side of a speaker, while direct records Channel 1 to Track 1 ect.DigitalSmigital said:
DigitalSmigital
A slice of analog pie?
Greykitkat36 said:
Yes. In direct mode, you can't use chanell six for the bass. You can only use inputs 1, 2, 3 and 4. Direct to the corresponding track.
You could bounce tracks (mixdown) one through four to add the bass during the bounce.
Or, you could use buss mode, record drums and bass on one chanell and then continue as you said on 2, 3, and 4.
Or, record the band live using four mics strategically placed around the room. That works, too. But you lose all the benefits of a four-track recorder this way.
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Greykitkat36
New member
DigitalSmigital said:
Yea. Thanks for all your help. I think we are going to do it this way.
Track 1- Vocals (Direct)
Track 2- Lead Guitar (Direct)
Track 3- Rythmn Guitar (Direct)
Track 4- Bass and Drums (Buss R)
This way we can hook up the bass into channel 6, and record it on track 4 with drums right? and then everyone else will have their own channel. But another question: When mixing this setup, will drums and bass be mixed with Track 2, or seperately? Thanks.
DigitalSmigital
A slice of analog pie?
Track 1- Vocals (Direct)
Track 2- Lead Guitar (Direct)
Track 3- Rythmn Guitar (Direct)
Track 4- Bass and Drums (Buss R)
See, you can't use Direct mode and Buss mode at the same time. You answered your own question when you wondered if the bass and drums (track 4) would be mixed with the Lead Guitar (track 2). If you use the diect mode, you only have 4 inputs going to tracks 1-4. That is why you'd need a mixer. (To mix bass and drums into one signal, going into channel 4)
Well, you have to record the drums and bass on track 4 first. You can use any two inputs, one for bass, one for your drum mic. Send both inputs to track four with the "pan" potentiometer all the way to the right. (buss R) Then, after you have those two on tape (track 4) you can record one and two (vocals and lead guitar)in buss mode, and add three after that.
This all sounds so complicated at the beginning. After you do it a few times you'll get it.
Track 2- Lead Guitar (Direct)
Track 3- Rythmn Guitar (Direct)
Track 4- Bass and Drums (Buss R)
See, you can't use Direct mode and Buss mode at the same time. You answered your own question when you wondered if the bass and drums (track 4) would be mixed with the Lead Guitar (track 2). If you use the diect mode, you only have 4 inputs going to tracks 1-4. That is why you'd need a mixer. (To mix bass and drums into one signal, going into channel 4)
Well, you have to record the drums and bass on track 4 first. You can use any two inputs, one for bass, one for your drum mic. Send both inputs to track four with the "pan" potentiometer all the way to the right. (buss R) Then, after you have those two on tape (track 4) you can record one and two (vocals and lead guitar)in buss mode, and add three after that.
This all sounds so complicated at the beginning. After you do it a few times you'll get it.
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Greykitkat36
New member
what happens if you do use direct and Buss at the same time?
Also, the only reason we went direct was so that I could mix everyone seperatley, because Iam not really sure how to mix when recording with Buss Mode.
Also, the only reason we went direct was so that I could mix everyone seperatley, because Iam not really sure how to mix when recording with Buss Mode.
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Greykitkat36
New member
So, this would be ok?
Track 1- Vocals (Buss L)
Track 2- Rythmn Guitar (Buss R)
Track 3- Lead Guitar (Buss L)
Track 4- Drums and Bass (Buss R)
And so Vocals would be in Input 1, Rythmn- input 2, Lead- input 3, and Drums input 4, bass input 6.
But, how will divide among channels? Will vocals be recorded in the center or Left side of the speaker? Will drums be in the right side or in the center? because ultimatley we want this.
Left - Lead Guitar
Left-center- Bass
Center- Vocals, Drums
Right- Rythmn Guitar
Track 1- Vocals (Buss L)
Track 2- Rythmn Guitar (Buss R)
Track 3- Lead Guitar (Buss L)
Track 4- Drums and Bass (Buss R)
And so Vocals would be in Input 1, Rythmn- input 2, Lead- input 3, and Drums input 4, bass input 6.
But, how will divide among channels? Will vocals be recorded in the center or Left side of the speaker? Will drums be in the right side or in the center? because ultimatley we want this.
Left - Lead Guitar
Left-center- Bass
Center- Vocals, Drums
Right- Rythmn Guitar
DigitalSmigital
A slice of analog pie?
Well, it's good to know where the drums will be in the stereo field before you start recording. But to get them there takes some planning. You will only use one mic on the drums, you said, so I'd hope you're aiming to put them in the center.
In buss mode, you can't route your signals to four different tracks. Only in direct mode can you do that trick.
But the drawback with direct mode is, you can't use all of your inputs.
You have 5 inputs at once. That rules out direct mode. Or, so it would seem. But, what if you did this:
Use direct mode to record:
Track 1: Drums
Track 2: Bass
Track 3: Rhythm Guitar
Track 4: Blank, nada, silence
After recording, switch to buss mode. Add vocals and lead guitar on track four. Stir well, bake at 350.
In buss mode, you can't route your signals to four different tracks. Only in direct mode can you do that trick.
But the drawback with direct mode is, you can't use all of your inputs.
You have 5 inputs at once. That rules out direct mode. Or, so it would seem. But, what if you did this:
Use direct mode to record:
Track 1: Drums
Track 2: Bass
Track 3: Rhythm Guitar
Track 4: Blank, nada, silence
After recording, switch to buss mode. Add vocals and lead guitar on track four. Stir well, bake at 350.
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Greykitkat36
New member
DigitalSmigital said:
LoL. But, out of curisosity, if you just used buss mode for all 4 tracks:
Track 1- Vocals (Buss L)
Track 2- Rythmn Guitar (Buss R)
Track 3- Lead Guitar (Buss L)
Track 4- Drums and Bass (Buss R)
How will that mix into a stereo field?
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Greykitkat36
New member
anyone??
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radiorickm
New member
well, i read all that...and now i am confused..
so back to the basics. some definitions first.
DIRECT: means that whatever is plugged into ch 1 gets recorded onto track 1. could be a single vocal mike, or the sum of a 56 channel mixer board...no difference, it'a all on channel 1. same for direct 2, 3, and 4.
cant plug in 6 cords to a 4 hole outlet. you would have to premix to get more in, using the external mixer. but...4 tracks is 4 tracks.
BUSS: means that the input of the mixer (all 8 channels) is summed to that one bus. (or two if you do stereo)
now, some one tell me where i'm wrong, but theoretically, you could activate track 1 into (buss L) mode, and dump all 8 sources on that one track.
(ok...5/6 and 7/8 are hard panned, so you may miss the even sides....but still)
now then. play back and record are two different things. totally
When we play it back, we switch the thing up top and listen to tape source insted of mike source. it plays back what ever is recorded, back thru the (4 channels) of the mixer. if ch 1 was recorded buss, with the 8 sounds on it, they will be track 1. we can pan them as a group, add eq as a group or whatever.
track 2 recorded direct, a mike, same thing. we can pan it, eq it whatever.
so here's my theory.
the bass drums, and bass guitar are usually panned center anyway. they will be happy on a mono channel, or center panned together.
record them togehter on track 4 bussed just as you plan. (you may want to put them into the 4 reg inputs instead of 5/6 and 7/8, but you could play with them and get them to work too.)now you cam mix at least 6 inputs (your drum mikes and the bass) into the one channel
record the others direct.
i dont see why direct and buss can't be used together.
i really think it will work..
i dont have my 424 with me, but i will go home and try it tonite. good luck
when in doubt....try it
so back to the basics. some definitions first.
DIRECT: means that whatever is plugged into ch 1 gets recorded onto track 1. could be a single vocal mike, or the sum of a 56 channel mixer board...no difference, it'a all on channel 1. same for direct 2, 3, and 4.
cant plug in 6 cords to a 4 hole outlet. you would have to premix to get more in, using the external mixer. but...4 tracks is 4 tracks.
BUSS: means that the input of the mixer (all 8 channels) is summed to that one bus. (or two if you do stereo)
now, some one tell me where i'm wrong, but theoretically, you could activate track 1 into (buss L) mode, and dump all 8 sources on that one track.
(ok...5/6 and 7/8 are hard panned, so you may miss the even sides....but still)
now then. play back and record are two different things. totally
When we play it back, we switch the thing up top and listen to tape source insted of mike source. it plays back what ever is recorded, back thru the (4 channels) of the mixer. if ch 1 was recorded buss, with the 8 sounds on it, they will be track 1. we can pan them as a group, add eq as a group or whatever.
track 2 recorded direct, a mike, same thing. we can pan it, eq it whatever.
so here's my theory.
the bass drums, and bass guitar are usually panned center anyway. they will be happy on a mono channel, or center panned together.
record them togehter on track 4 bussed just as you plan. (you may want to put them into the 4 reg inputs instead of 5/6 and 7/8, but you could play with them and get them to work too.)now you cam mix at least 6 inputs (your drum mikes and the bass) into the one channel
record the others direct.
i dont see why direct and buss can't be used together.
i really think it will work..
i dont have my 424 with me, but i will go home and try it tonite. good luck
when in doubt....try it
R
radiorickm
New member
ps... i guess i should have put in that .... recording live ONE TIME, you would have to use a mixer, preferably one with 4 sub groups, and dump into the 4 tracks.
but to record it in several takes. the idea should work
got carried away....thanks
but to record it in several takes. the idea should work
got carried away....thanks
H
hd1903
New member
same situation
i'm in the same situation. we were going to do drums first. i'm just learning and in the middle of trying things. i come up with a few different approaches. anyone please feel free correct or explain anything that i may confuse or misunderstand, or do incorrectly/ differently than you.
one way is to do the drums on 4 tracks, snare 1, bass 2, rack toms 3, floor tom 4. i would like to use the other inputs for hi hat, cymbals /over heads, or room mic. i would like to do that with aprox 2-3 mics. (we have a 6 channel pa head) then we mix the 4 to a tape deck, pan to the center, adjust lows-mids and highs and levels. shoot it from there back in onto the 4th track, then we have 3 tracks for bass,vox and guitar. but i don't like the fact of sending the drums to another tape, do i lose alot of quality? should i use a vcr for that instead? should i not go out to another tape/vcr and just use 3 tracks and bounce them to track 4. which cuts quality more? bouncing to 4 or going to vcr or tape deck and back into 4?
will i lose quality going thru a 6 channel pa head, compared to a mic direct in the mk3.
basicly , whats the best way to record a full band, and have the best quality the mk3 can do?
and how good is the mk3 anyway, with some practice, could i pull off a great sounding demo cd. and whats the best/right way to put it on cd. i would hate to pay anyone again to make a good sounding demo. if we were going to sell an album we would go to a studio. but unless my ears mistake me, with cheap mics, drums not tuned perfectly, and a quick take,but my drums sounded like canons! 4 mics direct in and the best mic was a sm58 on the snare. with all 57's or 8's and drums tuned, new mic cords(xlr or quater?) -i feel confident, my band don't. what do you think? they want a friend that has a pc setup to record us, he's not a pro and the gear i'm sure is not big $. i know what good drums sound like and think the mk3 has enough potential to sound just as good as the average pc setup and user,from what i heard so far. maybe it's the analog? what do you think.
i'm also curious and confused about sending the raw tracks to pc. one at a time? all at once, mixed? any sync problems. i don't have a good sound card, and got one of those rca to one mini jack for pc. was gona shoot to my pc to just burn cd's?
sorry for the rant and so many questions. it would be great to see someone motivated enough to explain in detail all of this. lol
thanks for any input.
i'm in the same situation. we were going to do drums first. i'm just learning and in the middle of trying things. i come up with a few different approaches. anyone please feel free correct or explain anything that i may confuse or misunderstand, or do incorrectly/ differently than you.
one way is to do the drums on 4 tracks, snare 1, bass 2, rack toms 3, floor tom 4. i would like to use the other inputs for hi hat, cymbals /over heads, or room mic. i would like to do that with aprox 2-3 mics. (we have a 6 channel pa head) then we mix the 4 to a tape deck, pan to the center, adjust lows-mids and highs and levels. shoot it from there back in onto the 4th track, then we have 3 tracks for bass,vox and guitar. but i don't like the fact of sending the drums to another tape, do i lose alot of quality? should i use a vcr for that instead? should i not go out to another tape/vcr and just use 3 tracks and bounce them to track 4. which cuts quality more? bouncing to 4 or going to vcr or tape deck and back into 4?
will i lose quality going thru a 6 channel pa head, compared to a mic direct in the mk3.
basicly , whats the best way to record a full band, and have the best quality the mk3 can do?
and how good is the mk3 anyway, with some practice, could i pull off a great sounding demo cd. and whats the best/right way to put it on cd. i would hate to pay anyone again to make a good sounding demo. if we were going to sell an album we would go to a studio. but unless my ears mistake me, with cheap mics, drums not tuned perfectly, and a quick take,but my drums sounded like canons! 4 mics direct in and the best mic was a sm58 on the snare. with all 57's or 8's and drums tuned, new mic cords(xlr or quater?) -i feel confident, my band don't. what do you think? they want a friend that has a pc setup to record us, he's not a pro and the gear i'm sure is not big $. i know what good drums sound like and think the mk3 has enough potential to sound just as good as the average pc setup and user,from what i heard so far. maybe it's the analog? what do you think.
i'm also curious and confused about sending the raw tracks to pc. one at a time? all at once, mixed? any sync problems. i don't have a good sound card, and got one of those rca to one mini jack for pc. was gona shoot to my pc to just burn cd's?
sorry for the rant and so many questions. it would be great to see someone motivated enough to explain in detail all of this. lol
thanks for any input.
Mark7
Well-known member
And, LOOK!
A Tascam 464, currently standing at $75 with just over a day to go
And
A Tascam 246
I don't care how poor you are. Borrow the money from your parents and then pawn the 424.
A Tascam 464, currently standing at $75 with just over a day to go
And
A Tascam 246
I don't care how poor you are. Borrow the money from your parents and then pawn the 424.
DigitalSmigital
A slice of analog pie?
Re: same situation
You can get a great sound on your Porta for a demo quality recording. I have a cheapie drum kit complete with squeeky throne and outta tune heads; my 464 documents these facts wonderfully!
Sorry I don't have time to address as many issues as you have raised in your rant. But I can say this; get a compresser for your signal going to tape. You want a strong, even signal for a great sound, and it's difficult to do without.
You have raised some good questions that we all need an answer to.
hd1903 said:
You can get a great sound on your Porta for a demo quality recording. I have a cheapie drum kit complete with squeeky throne and outta tune heads; my 464 documents these facts wonderfully!
Sorry I don't have time to address as many issues as you have raised in your rant. But I can say this; get a compresser for your signal going to tape. You want a strong, even signal for a great sound, and it's difficult to do without.
You have raised some good questions that we all need an answer to.
R
radiorickm
New member
well....
i am not going to tell you to sell everthing and start over. Instead, im going to tell you to learn to use the equipment that you have, to it's full extent. then, if you cant do what you want, buy what you need to do it. Most everything you learn on the way will still apply.
that being said.......
here is my plan of attack.
mike 1 kick drum into ch 1
mike 2 snare drum into ch 2
mike 3 rack toms into ch 3
mike 4 floor toms into ch 4
mike 5 overhead symbols into ch 5
mike 6 overhead symbold into ch 7
acitivate track 1 into buss mode.
mix it good. cuz you cant go back.
now, record the drums onto track 1 of the recorder. 1st gen recording. no ouboard.
now. make trk 1 safe and put 2 into buss mode. change ch 1 source from mic to tape.
bass guitar into ch1
rythm guitar into ch 2
aux percussion into ch 3 tambourine or ??
use 4 if you ned to
mix it reecord it.
make 2 safe, change the source, and buss trk 3
lead guitars into ch 1
back up vocals into ch 2,3 & 4
mix them, record them
make 3 safe, change the source, put 4 into buss
lead vocal into ch 1
processed...eq compress, reverb ????
safe 4., change 4 source to tape
now.
everthing is 1 gen tape. you have an amount of control of the output with everthing sub grouped. The idea is you only have to match the subgroup to itself, and not the main mix. So if the drums are overall to loud, drop fader 1 a little. Need more b.u vocal, raise fader 3 a little.
it's a good compromise to get a decent quality recording.
just my theory. anyway learn to use what you have well. or at least a starting point and something to try
cant go supersonic in a cessna. you dont do basic flight training in a F-16.
learn to use what you have in the basic, then build skills and add equipment as needed and justified...
maybe 20% equipment...80% skill and experience???????
my $.02
i am not going to tell you to sell everthing and start over. Instead, im going to tell you to learn to use the equipment that you have, to it's full extent. then, if you cant do what you want, buy what you need to do it. Most everything you learn on the way will still apply.
that being said.......
here is my plan of attack.
mike 1 kick drum into ch 1
mike 2 snare drum into ch 2
mike 3 rack toms into ch 3
mike 4 floor toms into ch 4
mike 5 overhead symbols into ch 5
mike 6 overhead symbold into ch 7
acitivate track 1 into buss mode.
mix it good. cuz you cant go back.
now, record the drums onto track 1 of the recorder. 1st gen recording. no ouboard.
now. make trk 1 safe and put 2 into buss mode. change ch 1 source from mic to tape.
bass guitar into ch1
rythm guitar into ch 2
aux percussion into ch 3 tambourine or ??
use 4 if you ned to
mix it reecord it.
make 2 safe, change the source, and buss trk 3
lead guitars into ch 1
back up vocals into ch 2,3 & 4
mix them, record them
make 3 safe, change the source, put 4 into buss
lead vocal into ch 1
processed...eq compress, reverb ????
safe 4., change 4 source to tape
now.
everthing is 1 gen tape. you have an amount of control of the output with everthing sub grouped. The idea is you only have to match the subgroup to itself, and not the main mix. So if the drums are overall to loud, drop fader 1 a little. Need more b.u vocal, raise fader 3 a little.
it's a good compromise to get a decent quality recording.
just my theory. anyway learn to use what you have well. or at least a starting point and something to try
cant go supersonic in a cessna. you dont do basic flight training in a F-16.
learn to use what you have in the basic, then build skills and add equipment as needed and justified...
maybe 20% equipment...80% skill and experience???????
my $.02