TASCAM 414 Mk. II, Porta 02, Ramble, Questions, First Post!

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rockgardenlove

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Hey guys! First post! Glad to be here. :D

I'll start of by saying what I'm trying to do here:
Right now I have Presonus Firebox that I use to record straight into my Apple Powerbook. I'm happy for the most part, it's just that when compared to all my favorite recordings (60's music mostly) the overall feel of the sound is way different. It's too sterile. I'm hoping analog can fix that problem. In the end I'll probably use a hybrid analog/digital setup, recording onto tape, and then importing each track to a digital format individually and remixing everything digitally, then exporting again and doing a final master on the tape. I'll probably use it to produce full songs too, without using digital at all. I also want to use a 4 track for song snippets to record ideas, as it's a pain to get the computer all set up (on top of that I'm getting seriously slow on HD space, and I'm too lazy to plug in my external drive most of the time). I also hope to use tape for pitch shifting and reverse effects.

With that said, I started out by doing searches for a suitable 4 track. The only one I really ran into was the Porta02. I saw a good price on eBay and snapped one up for 80 bucks. A bit impulsive, but I can't stand it when you pass something up and then you end up hating yourself afterwards because it was a great deal you missed. So I'll have one of those showing up in the mail in a day or two regardless of what I decide to do regarding the 414.

Here's what I'm liking about the 414:
Speed control-I really need one of these. I can hack one into the Porta02 with my nifty soldering skillz ( :p ) but having it built in would be nice.

More simultaneous inputs-this is good for obvious reasons. I can stick my drum mic mixer into the stereo channel and still have 4 left. Full band in one go, sweet.

Effects Send/Return-will be nice for using my analog guitar stomp boxes/other effects on tracks. I build my own effects units so I think it'll be great fun to stuff things into the effects loop. Spring reverb anyone? Yum. :cool:

General increased versatility-self explanatory.

Cons/good things about the Porta02 (I like lists at times, sorry):
Disposal of Porta02 I Have Now-if I buy the 414 I'll need to get rid of the Porta02 (sell it or give it to a friend, not a huge deal.

Simplicity-reading the 414 manual confused the hell outta me. It can't be too hard to understand the 414 with some experimentation, but somehow the simplicity of the Porta02 really appeals to me.

More Money-but I can live with it.

And now, and in color, some questions:

Pitch Shift?-how much pitch shift can I get from the 414? I've heard it's almost 3 semitones. This sounds a bit awkward, having your recording be a bit sharp or flat...
Tape Flipping-I've heard that if you record onto track one per say, and then flip the tape over, you can playback that sound on track four, but reversed. This true? If so, does this sound possible/correct? Here we go:

1.) Have backing on tracks 1,2, and 3.
2.) Flip tape.
3.) Play back.
4.) Play back backing (now in reverse) on tracks 4, 3, and 2.
5.) Record onto track 1.
6.) Flip tape back over.
7.) Be left with your recorded section backwards on track 4, and your backing forwards on tracks 1, 2, and 3.
Sound like a plausible technique?
​
Why Can't I Find a New 414 From Large Music Retailers?-the reason I grabbed the Porta02 so fast was because I didn't see that the 414 even existed.
Mixing Down-could you mix down by taking the output of say tracks 1, 2, and 3 and then recording them down onto track 4? In short, can you read on certain tracks and write on others at the same time?
Regarding the Stereo Track Deal-does this utilize two of the four tracks? As in, if you recorded with the stereo input, would this use tracks 1 and 2 both? Or would it somehow put both the left and the right chanels onto one track? Confused after reading the manual.
Noise Reduction-how good is the noise reduction? Is the the same as the 424? I've heard conflicting reports.





:eek:
That post is a monster. But it's good to be here, and I hope you guys can give me a hand. Does the 414 sound like a worthwhile investment for me to make, regarding my needs? And of course those questions.

Thanks everybody!
 
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Welcome, and a few comments.

The Porta 02 is simpler than the 414mkII, so they both have their place and their strengths.

The Porta 02 is fine for a scratch pad recorder, but is a little too simple and noisy for high end productions.

The 414mkII will give you overally better sound quality, better features & capabilities that you may apply toward making better productions. The 414mkII is more complex, but it's really simple too. It will only take a little while to get the hang of it.

The 8 inputs and 4-simul recording capability of the 414mkII is a handy set of features when the scope of your recordings increases, (recording a band). The Porta 02 only has 2 inputs and 2-simul record, which is better for solo work.

You seriously don't want to "hack" a speed control into the Porta 02. The 414mkII's speed control gives +/-10% pitch shift.

Your backward tracking scenario will work, as described.

There is "track bouncing" capability with the 414mkII via it's mixer, but the mixer section of the Porta 02 is too simple to accommodate track bouncing, except to use an external patch cable, which would work. However, as the Porta 02 has no noise reduction, track bouncing would make noise prohibitive.

If you're using a stereo input, you'd need to record on 2 tracks to preserve the stereo image, otherwise you may choose to mix it down (mono) to one track. This is a 4-track we're talking about. There are only 4 tracks. Depending on your productions, tracking a stereo input to stereo set of tracks may or may not make sense, but true stereo would require using 2 tracks.

The noise reduction on the 414mkII is dbx, the same as the 424mkIII. It works pretty well.

The 414mkII is still available brand new through this retailer:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tascam-414mkII-Portastudio?sku=240781
... but I could not find any other convenient retailers that had it listed. I'd say if the 414mkII is still available at this one site, it's on a 'use til gone' last blowout of supplies.

Ebay has some decent deals on acceptably good equipment, sometimes. The 414mkII and 424mkIII seem to be leading good deals lately.

The 414mkII would be better than the Porta 02 for your production purposes because of the higher capability and better sound quality, but the Porta 02 is nice to have around just for fun. The Porta 02 is a bit simpler and easier to use, but they're both relatively simple. The recording and mixing principals are the same on the two units, but the 414 gives you more flexibility.

The 424mkIII would be the most high end newer Tascam Portastudio you may find on Ebay, if you want to take it to the next level beyond the 414mkII.
 
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Hey, thanks very much!
I know it's +/- 10% speed, but how does that translate into semitones? As said before, I've heard almost 3, so it'd be a bit flat or a bit sharp, depending which way you send it. I'd just like some sort of verification, so if anybody knows, that'd be great. :) I really like the sound of a tape sped up to get to a new key, like on so many Beatles songs. Judging from your signature you should be familiar with this.

The track bouncing feature sounds excellent. Thanks.

Stereo issue is all cleared up now too, that seemed logical to me, the description in the manual just confused me. So if you use the stereo inputs, it would split each channel to each of the four tracks. Got it. :)

I'm not seeing any real advantages for me so far with the 424, so I think I'll spring for the 414. Funny how I couldn't find the 414 on MF, that was the first place I looked. I just didn't use the exact syntax I guess. Looks good.

(Just looking at the MF page, it says +/- 12% speed control, contradicts the manual, weird.)

I'll probably go eBay hunting.

I have another general technique question too if that's alright:
Can you mix down to multiple places at once, at different volumes? Say I have track 3 panned hard left, and track 4 hard right (stereo drums maybe). Can I mix the audio (say a guitar track) in track 1 onto tracks 3 and 4, along with 3 and 4. So I'd have track 3 with my drums, panned left, with some of the guitar on that side. On track 4 (panned right), I'd have the other half of my drums, with some of the guitar too, but louder than the guitar on track 3. So overall I'd have my drums split between 3 and 4, and more guitar on track for than 3, so the guitar would be effectively panned right?
I bet that's terribly confusing.

Two last things for now:
How are you supposed to monitor the level of the stereo inputs. Can you? Or is it that you route the stereo inputs on tracks 5-6 and 7-8 to tracks 1-4 and then view the indicator lights there?

Is there really no indicator light strip to show how high the master is going? This seems nuts to me. :confused:

And this is the third of the two things, how do these things sound overdriven? Harsh and fizzy, crackly, what? :D


Thanks very much!!!
 
I'll throw my .02 in just for fun. Dave's the man when it comes to this stuff though. My experience is limited to the 424mkii and a tiny bit on the 414.

I have another general technique question too if that's alright:
Can you mix down to multiple places at once, at different volumes? Say I have track 3 panned hard left, and track 4 hard right (stereo drums maybe). Can I mix the audio (say a guitar track) in track 1 onto tracks 3 and 4, along with 3 and 4. So I'd have track 3 with my drums, panned left, with some of the guitar on that side. On track 4 (panned right), I'd have the other half of my drums, with some of the guitar too, but louder than the guitar on track 3. So overall I'd have my drums split between 3 and 4, and more guitar on track for than 3, so the guitar would be effectively panned right?
I bet that's terribly confusing.
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely sure what you are describing is quite possible (if I understand you correctly). Partly because if something is already on tracks 3 and 4, you can't "add to it." You can either tape over it, or leave it. What you could do however, is sum track 1 (git) and 3 (L Drums) however you like to track 2. Then, track 3 becomes fair game and you could similarly sum tracks 1 and 4 to track 3 (in a second playback/bounce). You get the same result with your final stereo pair being on tracks 2 and 3 instead of 3 and 4. Does that make sense?

One thing that I really like to do re/bouncing is to use two machines. (so maybe think twice about selling the Porta02). Anyway, I'll fill up 4 tracks on a tape, then I'll mix them down to my liking (in stereo) and then send the stereo outs to the 2nd machine, putting the stereo tracks on tracks 1 and 2. This then gives me 2 more tracks to add, and I never have to sacrifice stereo serperation. [Of course, with the 2 machines in question, there's the prob with no DBX on the porta02, as Dave mentioned, so it may be very hissy.]

By contrast, by doing an internal bounce (the traditional way) you fill up tracks 1, 2, and 3, then bounce them to track 4. However, this means that all 3 instruments have to be panned to the same location as they are fused together eternally. (of course, to add even MORE tracks, you can do a combo of internal and "external" bounces. You just REALLY need to plan your track population well in advance)

Just some things to think about. I guess if you are really geeked about cassette tape, Get a 414 (for the DBX if nothing else), and give some serious thought to picking up a 2nd one (or a 424 - the EQ is much more flexible).

Hey, thanks very much!
I know it's +/- 10% speed, but how does that translate into semitones? As said before, I've heard almost 3, so it'd be a bit flat or a bit sharp, depending which way you send it.
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Never measured it, but I'd guess thats pretty close to accurate. You can go from satan to chipmunk with the twist of a knob.
I'm not seeing any real advantages for me so far with the 424, so I think I'll spring for the 414
Click to expand...
Advantages that I see right off the bat- much better track EQ, particularly the sweepable mids. Better/more flexible I/O/Routing options. Better display/clock. automated punch in/out. And sometihng I've come to use recently - direct tape outs for each track. I've been able to take a 4 track tape, and run all 4 tracks into the computer to mix there. Although you may be able to effectively accomplish the same thing on the 414 with creative use of the FX Sends and direct outs. There are undoubtedly other advantages, but these are what come to mind currently.

I hope that helps a little bit anyway.
 
Hmm, for the mixing down, what I mean is that you'd mix down track 3 (drums left) and track one (guitar) together to track 3. Then you'd do the same thing with track one and track 4, except when you mix down you'd mix down with louder guitar. If track 4 is panned far right, and track 3 far left, you'd have split drums, and more guitar on the right side, no?
Or does this still not make sense?

I may just go with the 424III now that I see that I can probably nab one for not more than 200 eBay.
 
rockgardenlove said:
Hmm, for the mixing down, what I mean is that you'd mix down track 3 (drums left) and track one (guitar) together to track 3. Then you'd do the same thing with track one and track 4, except when you mix down you'd mix down with louder guitar. If track 4 is panned far right, and track 3 far left, you'd have split drums, and more guitar on the right side, no?
Or does this still not make sense?

I may just go with the 424III now that I see that I can probably nab one for not more than 200 eBay.
Click to expand...
Are you talking about doing this with tracks that are already recorded to the tape? if so, my previous reply still stands.

If, however, you are refering to doing this as you record drums and guitar together live, then, yes, you can definitely do it as you describe. One of the confusions often with these machines is the difference between "channels" and "tracks." Think of the machine as a stand-alone mixer (with 6 or 8 channels (depending on the model)), and a 4 track recorder (with 4 and only 4 physical tracks of tape). You can plug various instruments/mics into various CHANNELS, and mix them together all sorts of different ways. The mixed signals can then be sent to any or all of the 4 TRACKS. The Buss L and Buss R recording makes this possible.* Any input channel panned L can go to tracks 1 and/or 3, and any channel panned R can go to Tracks 2 and/or 4.

So if you arm tracks 3 and 4 (Buss L and R Respectively), and your incoming guitar channel is ctr'd it will be recorded evenly on tracks 3 and 4. Pan the channnel a bit R, and the guitar on track 4 will become a bit louder than on track 3. Pan the Channel Hard R, and you will get no Guitar at all in track 4.

*The other recording mode, DIRECT, forces Channel 1 to record only to track 1, Channel 2 to Track 2, etc., so it is much more limiting.
 
I'm kind of talking about remixing certain tracks of the tape together though. So I'd be using the mixer portion to take the outputs of tracks and sum them into one. This is just regular old bouncing, right?

I just need to know if you could send one track to the mixer to be mixed with two other tracks...so you'd end up with the audio in track 1 mixed with the audio from track 3 together, AND the audio from track 1 mixed with track 4 on another track...

In other news, I just nabbed a 424Mk.III off eBay for 200 bucks. Should be fun.

Thanks guys!
 
Yeah, the 424mkIII is a great unit.

When recording, you'd have 8 inputs available to route to either 1 or 2 tracks (L/R) simultaneously in BUSS L/R -mode recording, which is 2-tracks simul recording mode using the Stereo L/R buss (Main Mix buss). Tracks 1 & 3 would be "Left" buss tracks, and tracks 3 & 4 would be "Right" buss tracks.

When recording in DIRECT mode, REC-FUNCT switch automatically routes the Input Channels [1-4] to Tape Tracks [1-4], respectively.

When Mixing Down, you're summing the 4 tape tracks to a Stereo L/R format on the Main Mix (Stereo) Buss, which is the same signal path you use to do BUSS L/R -mode recording, only instead of signal going TO tape, you're routing signals FROM tape to the outside world on the Stereo L/R (Main) buss.

The 424mkIII is a leading Ebay deal lately. I've gotten a couple of them that work fine for $99 & $115, respectively. Some of the most leading Ebay deals I've gotten on the 414mkII would be in the $65-$85 range. The lowest I've gotten a Porta 02 (& 02mkII) would be about in the $40 range. Price and condition vary daily on Ebay, so buyer beware. I've gotten a few Tascams off Ebay that had or developed problems, but overall I've done pretty well with Ebay-gear-for-cheap. :eek: ;)

The 414mkII is nice, but the 424mkIII is significantly better in features. The sound should be roughly the same for the two units, except the 424mkIII might give you a slightly better edge in making better productions, with a better mixer & better EQ. :eek: ;)
 
Alright, good to know about the "direct function." I was just reading the manual and it seemed impossible to route a different mic to each of the 4 channels. Great!
 
424 Mkiii

This was my first entry into recording, and I found it really good. I bought it for $200 Canadian. I don't regret buying it at all, and the mixer is very flexible when it comes to bussing, with options to use stereo tracks as effect send/return.

Some of my friends use this to record all their live shows, then with the tape outs bounce them to digital, and pre-master them.

This is a great machine!
 
I have a Tascam 424 Mkiii. My problem is with track 2 when recording the levels look good and monitoring the recording on that track sounds great, everything looks and sounds good. When I play the track back I can barely hear it and the levels are gone. I have cleaned demagnetized checked cords mics and it hasn't helped. Please Advise and thank you
 
...

I'll venture a somewhat educated guess that it's a service issue of internal calibration. As a typical user there may not be much you can do. If you're a full on techy type with a slew of test tools and a standard alignment tape, then it's within the DIY realm.

There's a smaller chance that there may have been a component failure in the signal chain,... another service issue,... but don't sweat over this, as it's way more likely a calibration issue.

However, as a layman,... if you're half way technically adept, you may want to split the MK3 apart then remove/reseat all the internal connectors. Sometimes a tarnished or dirty connection can cause signal loss, but reseating connectors is like a first pass at troubleshooting.

... All this only after making absolutely sure the head is spotlessly clean. Sometimes a little firm but gentle scrubbing action may be necessary to remove a stubborn particle of oxide.

... Also, if you have another cassette deck of any sort,... take the MK3 "master" 4track tape out and verify the signal printed on tape by playing it back in another deck.

... & if by chance you have a known good home tape or commercial prerecorded tape, pop it into the MK3 and see what it does.

... Not to mention,... try flipping the MK3 master tape upside down and play it backwards, see if the anomaly stays on the same track or changes to another track.

... This swapping around of the tape (or tapes) in the MK3 and other decks will help verify the true nature of the problem. Is it a write problem, a read problem, is it printing to tape normally, etc.

Just some tips FYI. There may be other users with more helpful comments.

Good luck!
:spank::eek:;)
 
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Hello this is my first post too. I'm in the same boat as the OP, using a Porta 414 in combination with a digital/computer set up.

Anyway I have more or less the same question about combining different instruments via the mixer, but for a specific example... I have a stereo signal going into the stereo input (5-6) and two separate mono instruments plugged into inputs 3 and 4. I would like the instrument of input-4 to be dead-center in the stereo field and the instrument of input-3 to be slightly to the right (about 2 o'clock). I'd like to record them all simultaneously (no overdubbing). What are the "record function" settings I need and what are the Pan knob settings I need to make this happen?

I've tried various configurations but the best I've managed sounds like basically a Mono recording, where it sounds like the stereo channels from the stereo input (5-6) overlapped/bled through or only one of the channels was actually committed to tape (e.g. autopanned high hats just sounded like they were getting louder and quieter rather than moving left to right, as one would expect from only hearing the left or right channel). Thanks for any help.
 
analog world said:
I have a Tascam 424 Mkiii. My problem is with track 2 when recording the levels look good and monitoring the recording on that track sounds great, everything looks and sounds good. When I play the track back I can barely hear it and the levels are gone. I have cleaned demagnetized checked cords mics and it hasn't helped. Please Advise and thank you
Click to expand...

I think maybe my question is relevant to your question as well. I've had similar experiences. It might be due to how the portastudio routes signals to the left/right buses, so your audio on track 2 is being played back when monitoring but when its trying to be set to tape there's some conflict with the rec function and pan settings.

Maybe I am just used to digital systems or maybe I am stupid but everywhere I look people are saying how easy it is to use 4-track recorders and my experience has been very confusing... it's fun and challenging, but I can't figure out the internal routing of channels and left/right buses to tracks for anything more complicated than like one instrument being recorded at a time.
 
...

When Rec-Function for tracks 1-4 are set to Buss L/R,
mixer Pan-Left feeds tape tracks 1 & 3,
and mixer Pan-Right feeds tape tracks 2 & 4.
(Pan-Center feeds Buss-L & Buss-R equally).
:spank::eek:;)
 
Thanks, that's what I suspected but I found the manual kind of confusing on this point... Or maybe just that the problems I've been hearing with my recordings conflict with that description and that has been confusing me. I'm not sure why I have been having these problems with stereo imaging since that's more or less how I've been proceeding. Maybe the issue is with how I'm monitoring the mix. Well anyway thanks, I might be overthinking this.
 
Rrgh I'm still having issues, maybe this is actually larger than my misunderstanding the bus routing, I really hope there's not some sort of internal problem... I'm going to make a new thread.
 
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