Syncronizing tape and midi .... ?

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gilwe

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How do I sync my Fostex M80 reel-to-reel machine with my PC midi tracks ? Does the Fostex have sync option at all ?
Any good reference for this topic ?

Thanks
 
By M80, I assume you mean what is usually referred to as the "Model 80" or just "80." I don't think there was an M80, though I could be wrong.*

I think those can be made to chase sync, but figuring out how to do this may require an exercise in technological archaeology. The Model 20, I know, has a big multi-pin connector on the back. I'd guess the Model 80 does too. Among the things you'd need to figure out: (i) do you need to install a card or something in the machine to make it chase sync? (ii) where do you get (or how do you make) the cables? and (iii) what sort of synchronizer works? There was a Fostex synchronizer (4050?). Other synchronizers -- for a parallel, rather than a serial, connection, I think -- may also work. I've heard that a Tascam parallel synchronizer (ES50, e.g.) will work with a Fostex deck, if you have the right cables. Lynx made synchronizers that were intended to work with a variety of types of equipment.

Or -- you can make a MIDI device chase pretty much any tape deck, or any audio recorder, for that matter. You just need a MIDI sync box, like a Midiman Syncman or the JL Cooper box. Whether this will work well where the slave is a computer, I can't say. It's easy to make a drum machine or a hardware sequencer chase a tape deck.

*A side point on Fostex reel-to-reel numbering: chronologically, there was the A-series (e.g. A2, A8); then a series with two digits (20, 80) which, incidentally, are also called "A-series" on their manual covers, if nowhere else; then more series, in alphabetical order.
 
Thanks for your comments,
well it is a Model 80 (which is called also M80)

As for the sync, isn't it possible to just record a "click" on one channel on the tape, and than let recording softwares like Logic to midi-sync to it ? Than I won't need all that complicated set...
 
As for the sync, isn't it possible to just record a "click" on one channel on the tape, and than let recording softwares like Logic to midi-sync to it ? Than I won't need all that complicated set...
Click to expand...

No... you need some sort of time code. The cheapest way to do it is to generate FSK (frequency-shift keying) synch with a MIDI-to-FSK conversion box, but it might be hard finding one of those these days.

The more professional, and of course more expensive way, is to use a MIDI-to-SMPTE converter. Higher-end MIDI interfaces can usually do this.

Both methods use the same basic idea -- you generate and record a specially encoded audio signal onto a track of the tape from the MIDI sequencer. (Of course this effectively makes a four-track into a 3-track.)
 
MIDI- SPMTE convertors are pretty cheap. I'd think you would have a harder time even finding an FSK box.

Syncing a DAW to tape is very easy. The hard part is creating a tempo map in the DAW that matches the original recording. If you are starting a project from scratch it's no big deal but if you are adding midi parts after the analog stuff is layed down it gets a bit tricky.
 
Would an anatek pocket synch work with his machine? I have one collecting dust. Used it with an old Tascam 4 track. 1 midi in. 1 midi out, 1 audio in, 1 audio out. I assume this is Fsk.
:cool:
 
In that case if you want it gilwe Ill send it to you for free. Its real small and would be less than 2 bucks to send it. Ill forget about the shipping but you could think about a small donation to HomeRec! :)
Let me know if you want it.
:cool:
 
Thanks very much for that ! I contacted you by email regarding to the shipping, but anyway -

I just found that Nuendo has a VST plugin that generates SMPTE code. Now, suppose I let it run and generate the SMPTE code, recording it onto a tape channel on the Fostex, that I get a SMPTE track on the tape I can syncronize with any SMPTE supporting sequencer, and I actually don't need any FSK or SMPTE generator box do I ?
 
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Got your email gilwe. Sent you one. No problem on shipping.

and I actually don't need any FSK or SMPTE generator box do I ?
Click to expand...

As far as I know you need some type of interface. Ill let one of these other guys tell you for sure. The only time Ive done this is with an old 4 track Tascam.
:cool:
 
OK I think I got it, I should have a sync box to translate the code on the tape into midi data so the sequencer can sync to the tape.
So I guess I will have to use a box.

I wonder if there is any softaware tool that can translate the data on the fly and send it to the sequencer....
 
I wonder if there is any softaware tool that can translate the data on the fly and send
Click to expand...
In your case the software is the sequencer that transmits the data to your tape machine.

Dont forget too send me your address Gilwe.

Heres some more Info.
http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/1995_articles/mar95/philipreests1.html

If you don't need SMPTE's flexibility, or your sequencer doesn't respond to MTC, then the TS1 can convert MIDI clock (not the same as MTC) to Smart FSK (Frequency Shift Keying). FSK simply turns the 0s and 1s of computer data (which is what MIDI basically is, after all) into an audio signal made up of two frequencies.
Smart FSK adds MIDI Song Position Pointers, which are signposts to the individual bars in a sequence, embedded in the code. Using SPP, a compatible sequencer can start at any point in a sequence and remain perfectly synchronised to tape -- it 'chases' the tape, so you don't have to play the tape from the beginning of a track every time. The one downside of FSK is that, unlike SMPTE, a sequence's tempo is set while the code is recorded. Smart FSK, while available on a wide range of synchronisers from other manufacturers, isn't standardised -- FSK recorded by one machine will not necessarily be readable by another. According to the manual, the TS1 has been designed to be tolerant of as many FSK codes as possible. Lock up isn't promised in all cases, but it may be worth a try. For the record, code generated by my JL Cooper PPS2 wasn't compatible.

http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req1000/sync2.htm
By itself FSK is only a tempo-relative sync signal, and gives no indication of location. Therefore, it can only be used in conjunction with Midi Clock signals. When hooked to Midi Clocks through a converter box, FSK responds by alternating a tone from 1.5KHz to 2.5KHz for every clock pulse. The converter, based on a specific Midi Clock tempo from the sequencer, will generate this tone, which will then get recorded onto tape. Then during playback, the FSK signal gets converted back to Midi Clocks to keep the sequencer in tempo. . However, since the converter will only respond to the frequencies of 1.5KHz and 2.5KHz, the tape speed cannot change during playback once the FSK signal is recorded, since changes in speed will change the pitches.
After initially recording FSK, make sure to leave enough signal before starting to record tracks of your song, because the tape machine may take a few seconds to ramp up to speed. Also, as with SMPTE time code, don’t record your FSK levels too hot because they can bleed into other tracks.

Smart FSK is almost identical to regular FSK, except that it can indicate a specific position in the song based on 16th notes. Therefore, Smart FSK can be used with Midi Sync. It is still recorded and played back in the same fashion as FSK, except that you must tell the converter to create Smart FSK instead of just FSK. The tape machine is the master and the sequencer is the slave. However, since the converter will only respond to the frequencies of 1.5KHz and 2.5KHz, the tape speed cannot change during playback once the FSK signal is recorded, since changes in speed will change the pitches.
 
Hi gilwe,...

Fostex made an entire line of timecode generator/readers that were plug compatible with the M80 and similar vintage decks.

Mainly, there's the model 4030 syncronizer, plus accessories like the 4050 autolocator, as well as several others, on the '4000' line, and some beginning with "8700". With the 4030, you'd be able to sync two reel-to-reels, or a reel-to-reel and other devices, [including the 'puter, I assume]. I can't give too many details by memory, but I believe the 4030's timecode is SMPTE "FSK". I better not try to quote too many specs before looking up the manual. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. [I only skimmed over some of the lengthier posts above].

Sorry to say, but I've had the M80/4030/4050 equipment, and have never ventured or had the time to set it up and use it properly. I've skimmed the 4030 manual, quite some time ago. What I know about sync is minimal at best, but I've successfully synced a Tascam 564 and Fostex FD-4 using MTC.

Also, I know of a "JLCooper" MTC converter that's supposed to work in a reel-to-computer sync. I think it's Smpte-to-MTC.

Anyway, you've almost worked it out entirely on your own. If your 'puter generates SMPTE timecode, you'll need a SMPTE/MTC converter as interface between the reel and the 'puter.

Sorry for the lengthy post, thanx & good luck.
 
what's up reel person !

Thanks for the link duck.

Well, it seem that the SMPTE-to-MTC converter is what I will need as most recrosing software are designed to generate and sync with SMPTE code ... Nuendo for example can take two type of "sources" for SMPTE in. Midi (which I guess should be MTC if I got you right Reel Person) and "9 pin connecotr" which I don't really know what it is. What I'm trying to find now is a software that takes an SMPTE audio signal from the soundcard line-in, and converts it to MTC on the fly so the sequencer can sync to it. To make the connection between the MTC out and the sequencer MTC in I guess I will need to use something like MIDI-Yoke.
 
I've yet to come across a software SMPTE to Midi convertor but I don't see why they couldn't do it. The only problem may be with latency but that would only be an issue on starts. Let us know if you find anything.
 
I found that SAW Plus has a built in SMPTE-to-MTC converter,
but what I need is a VST ...
 
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