SYNC problem on bounce :[

  • Thread starter Thread starter AllenM
  • Start date Start date
AllenM said:
miroslav the problem is I already bounced the 1st tracks to track 4.

I have this on tape as of right now


1 Bass
2 Strings
3
4 (rhythm g, rhythm g, drums)
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I have a suggestion that I don't think anyone has said yet: Why don't you go ahead and record something else on track 3 and then mix that tape to stereo on your other deck? Heck, you could even mix it all down to one track like you seem adamant about doing, and then you'll have 3 more tracks. As long as track 4 doesn't sound too bad by the end of it, this will save you having to re-record everything.
 
I've been telling him for two threads now that he should bounce/mix to a stereo pair from deck-to-deck....and plan ahead so as NOT to do more than 2-3 bounces. :)

Of course, he's stuck now 'cuz he already erased some of his tracks bouncing his way, and would now have to re-record them...BUT...he will end up re-recording it anyway, 'cuz when it comes time to mix, he will realize why putting so many things on *one* track instead of a stereo pair...DOESN'T WORK! :D

I mean, sure...he'll have something, but he will not have any stereo mixing ability...the ability to spread/pan the instruments.

Oh...and I also said in the another thread that when wanting to do that many tracks...he's better off getting rid of the two 4-tracks and going with an 8 or 16 track and a 2-track mixdown deck, especially if sound guality is going to be of concern.
For cassette, "demo-ish" quality...bounce away. ;)

All that said...it may be good for him to plod along in this manner...as he will learn about some recording/tape realities, which will help move him in the right direction in the long run. :cool:
 
Audiophallic said:
I have a suggestion that I don't think anyone has said yet: Why don't you go ahead and record something else on track 3 and then mix that tape to stereo on your other deck? Heck, you could even mix it all down to one track like you seem adamant about doing, and then you'll have 3 more tracks. As long as track 4 doesn't sound too bad by the end of it, this will save you having to re-record everything.
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!!! yes! Then I would send it to the other deck i have and record vocals on the remaining tracks! And yeah I should look into buying an 8 track. Where the hell would i find one...
 
I see the lightbulb finally went on for you! :)

That's what I've been saying to you over and over...bounce/mix from one deck to the other in stereo! :D
Didn't you get it? :confused:


Oh...

8-track deck = eBay ;)
 
Glad I could help, even though I really don't know anything. More on that later.

I'm curious though: is your final mix going to be mono? That would be pretty cool actually. I've thought about doing that myself so I don't have to worry about panning, etc. right away. BUT: if you're thinking stereo for the final mix, please listen to what Miroslav has been saying. You might get all this stuff done and then find out that you hate how it turned out, because of generation loss and lack of mixing options. In fact, at the end of it, you might find that you want to re-record it all over again.

:spank:

Now, really, I have no actual experience. Hell, I don't even own a tape deck (hope to own one in the next month or so), and though I've worked with ProTools a bit, I don't have too much experience with recording. The only advice I can give is what I've read other people post before me. Though we've been members for the same amount of time, starting back in late September/early October when I started browsing, the first thing I did was to read almost every post on the first 100 pages of the forum. I learned a hell of a lot just by doing that, and hopefully I won't be asking as many stupid noob questions as I would otherwise. What I've been suggesting is just stuff I read other people saying. I figure it's better to learn from other people's mistakes and so save myself a lot of grief.

So, just to recap, I think it's cool that you hear what I say, but I would prefer you listen to people like Miroslav, and you know, in a few weeks, you might wish you had listened to him when you first started asking this question a week (or two?) ago. I don't want to say "I told you so," it's just food for thought.
 
miroslav said:
Start over. :)

Your real problem is that you have both guitars and drums all on one track.
That's going to be a bitch to mix...because where ever you place one, the other two will follow. You have no L/R separation.

You should be bouncing to a stereo pair...like I showed you....and then keep mixing/adding to the stereo pair with each bounce.
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This might be the best advice in this thread so far. However, whatever you choose now, you're going to be compromising something, whether it's re-recording time, sound quality, mixing trouble, or a monaural final product.
 
I am going to do what miroslav has been telling me on my next song. I started recording Leaving Tomorrow about a weeks ago on one machine. I didnt think I would need to bounce between decks, I just thought I could do it within the same machine. So I bounced the 1st 3 tracks correctly to the 4th track. But when I recorded over tracks 1 and 2 and tried to bounce to 3, I found out I could only do it with SYNC enabled so basically when I played the tracks together It sounded like i was listening off the SYNC mode. So what I need to do to finish Leaving Tomorrow would be:

Bounce from deck B

1 Bass
2 Strings
3 Tambourine
4 Rhythm (R.Guitar,R.guitar2,Drums)

to deck A

1 (rec vocals)
2 (rec Backup vocals)
3 Bass, Strings
4 Rhythm, Tambourine

what do you think?
This will be in mono Btw
 
If you are really going to mixdown to mono...than my stereo pair approach is not needed...however, I do think bouncing will present a totally different challenge for mono...maybe even harder.
You have to NAIL the levels perfectly for every bounce.

I actually think bouncing is a touch easier when mixing for stereo even though you also have panning to consider...because with stereo panning, you can get away with "close enough" levels, and still have a decent mix.
With mono...like I said...you have to nail it from the first track and first bounce...down to the last. You have no room for error, and you can't really try as many "alternate" approaches as you could with stereo bounces...IMO.

I would get an 8 or 16 track deck...your life will be so much easier, and you can focus on just getting good takes instead of trying to guesstimate levels and panning up front...though it IS a good learning process!

Also…maybe you should start with a sparse track count and work it to a finished product before you try doing large track counts with multiple bounces.
 
miroslav said:
I actually think bouncing is a touch easier when mixing for stereo even though you also have panning to consider...because with stereo panning, you can get away with "close enough" levels, and still have a decent mix.
With mono...like I said...you have to nail it from the first track and first bounce...down to the last. You have no room for error, and you can't really try as many "alternate" approaches as you could with stereo bounces...IMO.
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Can you elaborate on this?
 
With mono...everything being "stacked" in the same space....even a tiny level or EQ adjustment can make or break how it fits in the "stacked" space.
Stereo allows you to "spread" stuff out, so you don't have that criticality of everything in one spot...though you still need to preplan where you are going to put things and how loud they should be if you are doing bouncing...but doing that for mono will require the balancing act of a tightrope walker and some serious foresight of how it should sound when it's all mixed.

I recall reading about the "Wall of Sound" mono sessions with the infamous Phil Specter (love his mono music, even if he is mentally deranged :) )...and how he would spend hours with everyone in the studio, playing at the same time...and he would move people over a foot or two, or adjust someone's level a pinch here and there.
A crowded mono mix is a very delicate operation…though with doing it live with all the musicians in the room, the worst that can happen is you do another take. With one guy doing al the tracking and having to bounce…there isn’t that safety net.
 
I wish spector could produce my record...
Why did he have to murder some bitch. :spank:
 
hey man, read the post i made for you on the other thread carefully. you really must plan ahead and have a basic idea of what the final end product will be BEFORE you start recording or you will make some serious compromises and your sound quality will suffer.

keep this in mind - you can really only do ONE real internal bounce on the 3340 before you start seriously losing sound quality, as you have now found. there
are many ways around this, but the 3340 is the least user friendly tape deck for bouncing. the 40-4 and 80-8, which came out later in the '70s, corrected the problem by giving you close to full frequency response in SYNC mode, and it was WAY easier to operate.

here is some basic info you NEED to know: you have 3 heads on your deck, in order - ERASE, RECORD, PLAY. the tape passes by each head in that order. if you record something, it will play it back a millisecond later. this is called tape delay. when you bounce, you are literally recording FROM the play head to the record head, so there will be a delay. if you bounce in SYNC mode, the RECORD HEAD is playing back the music AND recording it at the same time, so there is no delay. the problem is the record head sounds shitty when playing back, it was designed to be used as a GUIDE for you to listen to while overdubbing, not for fidelity. you can bounce in this manner if you do so strategically, like if you are doubling something or it is not very important to be full fidelity (i suggested using it for background vocals on the previous thread).

you would not have these problems with the later 4-track decks, namely the 40-4 or tascam 22-4. the 3340 can be VERY frustrating, i used to have one and moved on to the 80-8 REAL quick after going through exactly what you are right now. keep in mind your deck was designed as a quadrophonic tape deck. they made a simple mod so that your record head could play back in sync so you can overdub.

also, record to 1, 2, 4 and bounce to 3 ... trust me on this. there are a few reasons its better this way.

take advantage of having 2 decks ... use them, fidelity will be MUCH better overall.

plan it out man, you will avoid head scratching and frustration.
 
also, if youre going for a 60s sound, keep in mind they almost NEVER bounced internally, they used 2 decks back & forth.
 
also, you can get a great sound bouncing if you do it strategically. follow this link, click on the song "one-way woman" (track 15). i recorded this basic track on a 3340, the guitar/bass/drums were all bounced internally on the 3340 to one mono track, some of the backing vocals were bounced in SYNC mode. then the thing was transferred to another machine for more overdubs.

http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Hero-Vs...sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1268590731&sr=8-1
 
lonewhitefly said:
also, you can get a great sound bouncing if you do it strategically. follow this link, click on the song "one-way woman" (track 15). i recorded this basic track on a 3340, the guitar/bass/drums were all bounced internally on the 3340 to one mono track, some of the backing vocals were bounced in SYNC mode. then the thing was transferred to another machine for more overdubs.
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Offtopic, but where on earth did you get the dialogue from on "A new wizard, a new star"?
 
jpmorris said:
Offtopic, but where on earth did you get the dialogue from on "A new wizard, a new star"?
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hey man! that was a real conversation between a couple of friends that was recorded on microcassette.
 
lonewhitefly said:
hey man! that was a real conversation recorded on microcassette between a couple of friends.
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Cool. That would certainly explain the lofi sound to it... I always imagined it was a clip from a film or something and have been driving myself nuts trying to find out where it came from.

"They're not going to let you have free energy."
 
jpmorris said:
Cool. That would certainly explain the lofi sound to it... I always imagined it was a clip from a film or something and have been driving myself nuts trying to find out where it came from.

"They're not going to let you have free energy."
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ha yeh its a cool sounding thing, my friend was carrying around this tape recorder and played it for me, i was real into and said i've gotta use it. the full tape goes on for a really long time but those were the best bits
 
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