Symetrix 528E

[sibleypeck]

I am thinking about purchasing a 528E, and would like some input from those of you who have experience with it (Dolemite, et al).

Let me bore you with some information in order to explain how this unit will be used.

First, I have very little experience with sound engineering and no experience with outboard gear. However, I have spent many hours reading and ruminating about both those things.

I want to learn to create good quality recordings, beginning with simple demos - concentrating first on vocals.

I use an Ovation acoustic/electric, an ElectroVoice RE20, and Cakewalk.

Currently, I write the drums and all other instruments in musical notation, and let Cakewalk and a SoundBlaster PCI 64D card play them for me: a horrific experience, as I am sure most of you are aware.
I plan to upgrade to a Lynx One, but don’t know what to do about the drums and instrument sounds.

Once I learn a little about voice, I will tackle guitar and bass guitar, simply because I can play those instruments. The compressor section in the 528E, lacking attack and release controls, may not serve those instruments well, I fear. Any opinions on this?

Next, I hope to upgrade the drums and instruments sounds.

I have no plans at this time to record sessions, and so, expect to build recordings one track at a time, mixing with the software-generated mixer.

I would very much appreciate your exposing any obvious flaws in this plan, in addition to telling me what you know about the 528E.

 

[Dolemite]

IMO, the 528E is an excellent "channel strip" type unit. It is nice to have everything in one box...and this thing does absolutely everything you'd want for vocals (including de-essing and expansion which are a bit rare) and plenty of other applications. I find that with everything there, I can easily dial up the sound I need without mucking around with cables, level matching, etc. Every separate function of the 528E is about as good as one could imagine for the price, and you can route things through each section separately and in any order which gives you a lot of flexibility in signal processing.

I don't think the lack of attack/release controls is a huge disadvantage for vocals and most instruments. It might be a problem with drums (I only use sampled drums that I process with plugins so I couldn't say) but sjoko says the 528 is great on toms, IIRC.

I'd say it comes down to whether you can get a good deal on it. I got mine for a bit under $200, which seems quite a deal to me. On the other hand, if you end up paying more than $250 or so, you might be better off with a separate preamp/compressor...say a M-Audio DMP3 and an RNC. It also depends on what you're after. For "one track at a time" recording the 528 is hard to beat. If you need stereo mic'ing or analog mix bus compression then the DMP3/RNC combo would clearly be the better option.

 

[sibleypeck]

Why wouldn't the 528E work for analog mix bus compression?

I do not have a mixer. I was planning to use compression and EQ on the tracks (one at a time) that I have either recorded as audio, or converted to audio. I thought I could come out of the sound card's "audio out", into the 528E, and back into the sound card's "audio in". I just assumed I it could be done. Maybe it can't.

 

[Dolemite]

Sure, it can be done...but you'd really want 2 channels since you need the same amount of compression applied to both tracks when working in stereo. You'd also probably want attack and release controls when doing mix bus compression.

The 528 and similar devices are great tracking tools...but when I've got stuff down on digital I prefer to work with plugins. Since you have a consumer soundcard with 16-bit converters and unbalanced I/O (right?), you'll want to avoid running recorded tracks out of the computer even more so. Unless I had a specific reason for doing so, I usually wouldn't be using the 528 as signal processor for recorded tracks, and that's with balanced connections and 24-bit conversion. Still, if the 528 was all I had to work with, I could probably get close to the sound I want most of the time as long as I had good compression and reverb plugins. If I was really concerned about maintaining maximum flexibility with a recorded track, I can imagine recording a vocal completely dry and then running it through the 528 for processing, but without balanced I/O and good converters its just not a great idea.

Plan on investing in a good sound card. Take the money you'd spend on a Lynx and get an M-Audio Delta 44 or 66 and the Symetrix.

 

[sibleypeck]

Dolemite,
I never thought about two channels (stereo). Wow. And it’s SO obvious. If the 528E can’t double as a mix bus signal processor, I may have to re-think the plan. Are you suggesting I might use the 528E for tracking only – and some other unit for mixing?
Here’s a thought: (ignoring, for the moment, the issue of consumer sound card “quality”). Could a recorded audio signal be processed with the 528E by panning dead-center, using stereo-to-mono, and mono to stereo cables to route the signal to the 528E and back (to an un-used track), then setting the pan on the new track?

I want to avoid investing in plug-ins because I may switch to Digi 001 and a Mac (if it turns out that I have a talent for production). For the time being, I am trying to limit purchases to gear that isn’t OS-specific.

I have another, more basic question. The SB card incorporates A/D and D/A conversion, MIDI I/O, and sound synthesis into one unit that also contains a mic pre - correct? The Lynx One would replace the first two functions. The Symetrix would replace the last one. What replaces the section that generates the instrument sounds – a Sound Module?

 

[Dolemite]

Well, the 528 will work for stereo signals on everything but dynamics processing (compression/expansion). All you need to do is process left and right channels one at a time. Everything should line up as long as latency is constant.

You're right, most prosumer sound cards lack MIDI synthesis capability and a MIDI interface. That's why a lot of people have both a regular sound card like an SB Live and a prosumer card. It works suprisingly well once you get things setup right.

 

[chessrock]

Hey Sibley,

I don't mean to bust your chops on this, but have you ever heard of a term called "analysis paralysis?"

I read an article by Ross Perot several years ago for a college thesis. The article was written when he was the chief for EDS, and they had just been bought out by General Motors. This is (close to) what he was quoted as saying (not exact, but close):

"Where I come from (EDS), if you see a snake you kill it. At General Motors, first you'll have a meeting. Then you'll form a snake committee. Then you'll hire an outside consultant who knows a lot about snakes . . . "

Analysis paralysis, Sibley. I know all about it, because I am a fellow recovering sufferer somewhere between the 10th / 11th step of the program.

 

[Dolemite]

I don't mean to bust your chops on this, but have you ever heard of a term called "analysis paralysis?"

Dude, I don't think he's doing that. He just doesn't quite know what he needs to get going and he's asking the right questions to find out. He's definitely nowhere near your mic preamp fanatacism.

Anyway, one more thought I had...you've got the RE20 which is a great mic and an expensive mic. Unless you've found it to be a great match for your voice and your other sources, I would consider selling it and scraping up a bit more cash to finance the purchase of a nice sound card, a mic - maybe something like a Marshall V67, and a decent preamp like a Tube MP or an Audio Buddy. You could easily do that for around $400. Add N-Track for $50 and use its own plugins and get some free plugins (somebody has a list of links, Gidge?) and you're set. That would give you the chance to see if you have the desire to learn how to do all of this with minimal investment/risk.

Or if you're considering the Pro Tools route, try out Pro Tools Free...it comes with a couple plugins. I'd try that out now with your current sound card and see what you think. I think you'd be surprised to see what you can do even with your current setup.

 

[chessrock]

He's definitely nowhere near your mic preamp fanatacism.

A genuine interest and curiosity in to the pro audio industry is not fanaticism. Overanalyzing what should be a simple purchase decision isn't either. It's just a little excessive. My girlfriend spends 2 hours to buy a new pair of shoes, for instance. That's sort of like analysis paralysis. I suppose it's no worse than my spending all day watching the NFL draft.

My rants about mic pres have nothing to do with a purchase decision. I'm merely trying to get a closer look at an industry I find very interesting (I may even consider a business venture). It's a little weird, mind you. But no weirder than the fact that I still root for the Detroit Lions, even though they continue to suck every year. Now that you could call fanatical.

Or would that be masochistic?

 

[sibleypeck]

chessrock,

I have given a lot of thought to what you said about analysis paralysis, and would like to respond in detail. But first I wish to thank Dolemite for coming to my defense. Both of you are right.

A very great number of people, as you may know, are neurotic. Over-analyzing things is merely symptomatic of unhealthy human growth.

According to Karen Horney, in Neurosis And Human Growth, "The neurotic process is a special form of human development . . . not only different in quality from healthy human growth but, to a greater extent than we realize, antithetical to it in many ways. Under favorable conditions, man’s energies are put into the realization of his own potentialities. Such a development is far from uniform. According to his particular temperament, faculties, propensities, and the conditions of his earlier and later life, he may become softer or harder, more cautious or more trusting, more or less self-reliant, more contemplative or more outgoing; and he may develop his special gifts. But wherever his course takes him, it will be his given potentialities which he develops.
Under inner stress, however, a person may become alienated from his real self. He will then shift the major part of his energies to the task of molding himself, by a rigid system of inner dictates, into a being of absolute perfection. For nothing short of godlike perfection can fulfill his idealized image of himself and satisfy his pride in the exalted attributes which (so he feels) he has, should have, or could have."

Neurotic tendencies are complex, unconscious “solutions” to life, based in pride, self-hate or self-contempt, and self-alienation. The apparent advantages satisfy the “false self” ruled by the appeal of mastery, appeal of love, appeal of freedom, or some morbid dependency.

Perhaps as a result of my own neurotic personalty, I set a few ground rules when I got interested in home recording. One was, to use only pro-level gear. Another was, not to buy on credit. I want to develop a self-sustaining enterprise, rather than indulge in an expensive hobby, and these conditions provide a buffer to temptation as well as an opportunity to learn about equipment and processes.

Analysis is paralytic when it is used as a means to avoid making a decision or taking action. What I am laboring under is insufficient funds paralysis. But I don’t think that is necessarily a bad thing – it’s just the way it is.

I like the sound Erland gets on the Boss. I like the sound voxvendor gets on the Digi 001. The Cakewalk/channel strip option seems like a way to avoid expenditures on equipment one will later outgrow. But I haven’t found someone who has taken that route, so I am undecided about which way to go.

A few months from now I will have put aside a thousand dollars for equipment. At that time it will be very difficult not to spend it. In the meantime, as Dolemite says, I don’t quite know what I need.

 

[crawdad]

But no weirder than the fact that I still root for the Detroit Lions, even though they continue to suck every year. Now that you could call fanatical.

Or would that be masochistic?

HA! And I thought I was the only masochist here. Chessrock, I feel your pain--trust me!

Sibleypeck--The downside of waiting for the right gear is that you never get anything done. However, if you buy something like the Symmetrix and later find something better, you can probably get much of your investment back--and in the meantime be using what you have. Better still, buy used to begin with.

Another thought. If the lack of compressor features is steering you away, you could add an external compressor later. I bought a Behringer VX2000 a while back (please, spare me the obligatory B bashing, folks). To my surprise, I found it a great little pre with a ton of features for sculpting the sound. It didn't have everything, so I patched in an ART Levelar which I had lying around. That combo is fantastic. My Meek MQ3, which is as expensive as both those pieces, gets much less use. In fact, I think I'm going to sell it.

The problem with studios in general is that they aren't great investments. Things get old, theres always the latest and greatest new thing to buy, and the state of the art becomes the thing of the past very quickly. Once we start down the studio road, there is no end. Yet, if you think the whole thing through, you can figure out exactly what you need to get the job done--then draw the line there and get to work.

I loved Dolemites suggestions. There is a workable package with minimal investment, which incorporates the gear you already own. Ultimately, each persons studio becomes a reflection of his/her needs, and is thus unique. Rather than invest in Pro Tools, I put a Digital Performer platform together for 1/10th the price. For my needs, it does everything PT does. I've never been happier. I guess the problem is that there are SO MANY ways to go these days, it takes asking a lot of questions and doing research to find the best solution. You are asking the right questions! I'm sure you'll get plenty of good info here.

 

[chessrock]

When evaluating potential players before the NFL draft, it's pretty typical for teams to bring the obligatory stop watches, tape measures, and even personality tests to the NFL combines.

But did you know that some teams even Psychiatrists and even Priests to evaluate potential draftees?

And a lot of "can't-miss" players still don't make it even after all of that. So you have to wonder: "What's the point?" It's always going to be a gamble no matter how you approach it.

 

[sibleypeck]

chessrock,
That's probably why teams evaluate potential draftees BEFORE they hire them.
I prefer to let the manufacturer gamble, with HIS money, that I will become interested in his product and decide I need IT more than someone else's.


Crawdad,
That’s the second time someone has highly praised the results of patching in an Art Levelar. I need to know more about that.

I lack a clear understanding of the DIFFERENCE between “compression” and “limiting”, as well as the difference between applying them to “tracking” or applying them to “mixing”. Can you clarify that for me?

I will definitely want to be able to use compression during mixing as well as tracking. I don’t know whether the Symetrix can be used for both. Would one need a Levelar or RNC for mixing?


Dolemite,
Your soundcard/mic/preamp/N-Track approach sounds like good advice. I must admit, though, I don’t know anything about N-Track. Is it like Fruity Loops?

Soundcard: I like the Lynx One. I think it would be better than the CardDeluxe, for my particular application, because it has MIDI ports and I may want to incorporate a MIDI controller at some point if I end up using MIDI instrument sounds.
Would you expect the Lynx's XLR connectors to present a problem when connecting gear that has ¼” ins or outs ?

Mic: Of the four mikes I have used (Beyer M50, U87, 421D, RE20), I prefer the RE20 for my voice. So I will hang onto it.

Preamp: The 528E should satisfy the preamp component of your suggestion, plus provide satisfactory EQ control, as well as compression during tracking.

Instrument Sounds: N-Track (or Fruity Loops?) should supply better instruments sounds than what I now have.

The only other thing I may need is a D.I. box, because I will probably record acoustic guitar direct only - or direct on one track and miked on another.

Any other suggestions or advice?

 

[crawdad]

Compression vs Limiting can be confusing, but here is my laymans take on the differences between them. First, imagine that you have a signal, like a vocal performance, that you want to record cleanly to tape, but the singer has a few notes that just pin the meters into the red. If you put a limiter on his voice, it will do nothing until he drives the signal into overload. The limiter just keeps those peaks tamed. Similarly, if you have a mix which is 7db shy of reaching 0db, you can run the mix into the limiter, bring the input level up, and it still works to stop just the transients and peaks from going above 0db.

While similar in function, compressors are most often used to squash the whole incoming signal, thus evening it out. Depending on the ratio used, attack and release, it can allow a degree of dynamics or make the entire track almost equal in volume. With a compressor, you squash the incoming signal and then compensate at the end by usually bringing the level back up.

Both limit and compress. Its just a question of how they are used. You can take a compressor, set it to a 16:1 ratio and adjust the threshold so just the very hottest input engages the compressor. It becomes a peak limiter in that application.

Thats about the extent of my knowledge. Maybe some others can add to it.

 

[chessrock]

Hey, Crawdad, maybe I should tell him about my "dog on the leash" theory of compression.

Sibley, I apologize for my comments. I was just giving you a hard time. I'm impressed that you mentioned the Lynx One. Looks like you've been doing your research.

There's a good review in the latest issue of Sound-on-Sound for the Lynx 2. You usually don't see them gushing over things so much in their reviews, so that says something there. But the reviewer was literally gushing. Said it compared favorably to the quality of top-o-the-line outboard converters like the Apoge.

 

[crawdad]

Hey, Crawdad, maybe I should tell him about my "dog on the leash" theory of compression.

I loved your analogy there, Chess--he needs to hear it!

Sibleypeck--if you have a preamp, you can run that Ovation right into it--might have to use the pad or watch your level, but you don't HAVE to have a direct box. I have never owned a direct box, yet I record direct acoustic guitar and bass all the time with a normal preamp.

 

[sibleypeck]

crawdad,
Thanks for the explanation on compression/limiting.
As for the direct box, the 528E doesn’t have ¼” inputs, so I just assumed a direct box would be necessary to match impedance.
And its compression ratio control tops out at 10:1. Does this mean it may not be suitable for limiting?


chessrock,
It was very kind of you to apologize. I WAS stung by your other comments - perhaps they hit a little too close to the mark.
Now, what is your “dog on the leash” analogy?

 

[chessrock]

Hey Sibley, my comments were meant as much for myself than anyone. I tend to overanalyze things to the point that I confuse even myself.

The dog is like the audio signal. It wants to run off and do it's own thing. Chase squirrels, smell poo, etc. Sometimes it will jerk suddenly, like when it sees a cat or rabbit, and other times it will just gradually try to make you walk/run faster because your two legs are too slow for him. This is what makes him unique, and gives him the qualities of a dog. On the other hand, you the owner want him to express himself, but you also want to maintain some control over him.

Imagine that you are walking Fido towards a brick wall that is several feet in front of you.

The leash is your compressor. It keeps your dog under controll, moreless. Depending on it's slack and the elasticity of it's fiber, it puts you in the driver's seat of how much leaway your dog has to roam (how loud your audio signal will get).

Now you have control over this by what kind of leash you use. You can put your dog on a really short leash made of inelastic fiber, which will basically give him no breathing room to "be a dog" and to express himself. Or you can put him on a longer leash with more elastic fiber. This will give him more breathing room, but you have to be on your toes, because you're sacrificing some control over him.

Attack/Release:

The elasticity of the leashe's fiber is like the attack control on the compressor. A shorter attack time on an audio signal means you aren't giving the signal "very much slack" so to speak. Audio signals will be under tighter control, and won't be as dynamic. As soon as they try to get too loud, the compressor (or the leash) will keep it in tighter check.

A longer attack time is like using a more elastic material on the leash. You still maintain control as long as your dog doesn't stretch the leash's material beyond it's breaking point -- something that happens to my old socks and underwear a lot -- But he still has a little more freedom for sudden jerks, like if he sees a squirrel, he can at least start to chase it for a few seconds before the elastic starts to "snap back" and gain control over him. In audio terms, this would make for a punchier sound (longer attack time).

Ratio:

The ratio of the leash (compressor) would be how much "snap back" the leash has once it exceeds it's elasticity. Let's suppose there is 8 feet of slack available before the leash's elastic starts kiciking in and pulling him back. 8 feet is now your "threshold." Now let's suppose he jerks away from you suddenly to the distance of 12 feet. That's 4 feet beyond your threshold.

The ratio will determine how much beyond this threshold he gets. A 2:1 ratio on the leash/compressor would pull him back to 10 feet in front of you. Divide the distance he runs beyond the threshold (4 feet) by 2, and you get two feet beyond the threshold, or 10 feet. A 4:1 threshold would ensure that he only gets 1 foot beyond the threshold (4 divided by 4), so he would only get as far as 9 feet in front of you.

Limiter:

Now getting back to the brick wall that you are walking towards: This is like the limiter. It's your last barier of protection, really. Let's suppose your dog sees a squirel run by, and he jerks suddenly away from you to chase after it. Perhaps he jerks so fast that the leash slips out of your hand, or maybe even snaps it. The brick wall ahead of you insures that he won't get beyond that point. At the last second, the squirrel may swerve to the left or to the right, but the wall is there, and the dog won't be able to get past it. Maybe it will even hurt his head (hard clipping) if he runs in to it hard enough. Perhaps it will have a cushion placed on it to soften the blow (soft clipping). But the brick wall is there as your last line of defense to make sure he doesn't get away from you.

And in the audio world, you can set the elasticity of the leash (attack time), as well as it's recovery time (release). You can set the exact point at which the leash will become firm, tighten and start pulling him back (threshold), and when all else fails, there is a brick wall in front of you (limiter) . . . and you can even decide how far ahead of you to place the brick wall (the limiter's threshold).