Switching from Guitar to Bass?

W

wishtheend

New member
So I took the plunge into the bass world, and from being a guitarist prior, I feel like there are some aspects of bass that I'm clueless about. Hopefully you bass players can give me some answers or tips to make the trasition easier. I played guitar in a screamo/metal band for about 4 years, and I've played piano pretty much all my life. So I have a good understanding of all music theory, keeping time, and all that stuff. I just realized my dexterity really just wasn't capable of doing that kind of music I want to make (melodic-thrash/death).

1) I play with a pick and I find that I have a really hard time doing the really quick rhythmatic patterns when I follow the kick. Simple triplets and whatnot I can handle, but it's when we run into a section where the kick is just running the whole time with a speed picking guitar riff over it. I read somewhere that playing bass requires less force? Is this true? I played guitar with pretty hard strokes, so I'm guessing this could be part of the problem. But it seems like the lighter I play, the more string noise (scratching sound from pick on string) is audiable.

2) Bass EQ settings? The EQ range on bass is something completly new to me, since I'm use to the mid-high range on guitar. I'm looking for something with a nice beefy bottom end and the defintion of the note in the mid-highs. Something along the lines of Lamb of God or something. Any guidlines for the the current metal bass sound?

3) Drop tunning. We are playing in Drop C, and I play on an ESP Viper-254 that's a four string. I've asked this question before, and they say just move to a 5-string but I've seen alot of bands where they tune that low but the bassist still rocks a 4-string. Any suggestions on how to setup, or kind of strings to help keep tension on the strings? Because of the heavy stuff, I like more tension on the lower strings.

4) Why is volume different across the strings? I was doing recordings with the band and I did a DI'ed bass track and it seems like the lower two strings are alot quieter in comparision to the higher ones. Is there any way to remidy this besides compression?

Thanks to anyone who replies, and if there is anything else you think I should be told, don't hesitate in telling me. I realize that bass is a whole different animal from guitar and so I need to be taught.
 
1) bass playing is going to take a lot more effort - the strings are bigger, the instrument is bigger, the amps are bigger... :-) the blisters are bigger :-) a lot of guitarists are surprised at what it takes to play bass for 4-5 hours...
use a very heavy pick and i strongly recommend learning to use your fingers - you cannot underestimate the difference finger playing makes but it takes a lot of work and pain to get there.

2) eq - try to avoid mud. i generally cut 250hz a bunch and boost 50hz a bit and cut the 2k some and boost 500hz a bit (this gives me a bit of low and and some "pop" - you just have to play with it and see hows fitting with the band. i also tend to keep the instrument tone control around mid-way and vary it as need - more or less treble depending on the song)

3) i put a "hip shot" detuner on my low E so I could quickly drop the bottom string to a D or C as needed and quickly back up to E. easy to install. of course if everyone else is drop tuning, you can either drop it (reduces tension - could be muddy and noisy) or transpose your playing - in fact i find by keeping most of the work above the 5th fret i get better clarity in playing but you have to try it out...

4) try adjusting your pickups a bit so they are closer to the low strings - keeping in mind that there is a limit to this because the low tones are just generally harder to hear. having a compressor will help and again transposing parts higher on the neck will also even this a bit - at the possible low end.

as a general rule - spaghetti-note playing on the bass (ala Flea) has limited usefulness unless you're making a statement by playing so many notes - IMHO you're better off creating strong simple coherent moving bass lines with the least amounts of notes needed and to use low and high notes as part of the dynamics as well as melody. you fingers will thank you and the other band members will have more room for their stuff, plus the pulse will be more solid because of the contrast. (also) IMHO a lot of "heavy" left heavy metal when bass players stopped playing "heavy" notes and they decided to compete with the guitarists and drummers for most notes played... let's face it, besides the kick drum and some keyboards, you have the bass range all to yourself so way not simple plug in solid ass kicking notes to just thunder the crowd instead of trying to play a gazillion notes and create mud?

hth
 
If you compress too much, you may find that the lighter you play, the louder you are. And the converse: the harder you player, the quieter it is.

For higher tension with a drop tuning, you might try a lighter gauge string.
 
EddieRay said:
If you compress too much, you may find that the lighter you play, the louder you are. And the converse: the harder you player, the quieter it is.

For higher tension with a drop tuning, you might try a lighter gauge string.
Click to expand...

The part about the compressor makes sense, but I always thought for lower notes who wanted heavier gauge. Wouldn't lighter gauge just be really floppy/loose?

Thanks for the tips guys. I really have fallen in love with the instrument, and it really suits the way I like to play music. There are just somethings I couldn't teach myself :p
 
IMHO a lot of "heavy" left heavy metal when bass players stopped playing "heavy" notes and they decided to compete with the guitarists and drummers for most notes played...
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That's only with guitarists who don't use the whole guitar for rhythms. They are almost always playing rhythms on the top/lowest 3 strings.

Swift picking won't take a whole lot of practice. Just don't be doing it from your elbow or your shoulder. I've seen some guys start out trying to fast pick like that. It's a mix of the pick fingers and wrist. The back of the wrist is like a pivot point for the rest of the hand to sweep in a semi-circle. But, get some practice in from time to time doing it with nothing but the picking fingers. You don't want to eventually be playing with nothing but wrists and locked fingers. Your pick finger & thumb won't actually do much of anything at this speed, but they should be flexible not locked, but not so flexible that you "drop your plectrum!" :D It's all done back there in the bridge area just like the guitarists who palm mute.

I do it with any common gauges of guitar picks from .6 to .9 mm.

If you're making that zipping sound, you're going too side-to-side which takes too long to get the pick over the string. Keep your hand to where the pick is striking the strings flat even though the actual hand is doing the semi-circle motion.

Using a pick in metal is useful, but the fingers are too. I use fingers for everything except metal. In metal, I trade between fingers & picks all through a song if I want to. It's a judgement based on sound... more bottom or punchier highs are all done with fingers. A flat, airy tone that doesn't carry so much boom is done with a pick, and that can be mixed louder with more clarity too on recordings. Switching is part of how I avoid creating mud.

5 or 6 string basses that are 35" scale are the best-suited for when guitarists are tuned down to B or C. You need the low freq response of 5-string pickups anyway, so may as well get the basses designed to hold that low B to go along with it.

Unbalanced output from string to string: Replace pickups with either Basslines, Bartolini or Carvin. You could use an excellent onboard preamp too such as Aguilar, Bartolini, Seymour Duncan.

You've also got to set the pickup height, but that comes after you set the neck relief and the bridge saddles & intonation correctly.
 
I am a 80's shreader from days gone by, and I too switched to bass for that last 10 years (Although I still shread with my guitars all the time....long story..)

anyway, I found the transition to bass was very easy for the most part. I play most of the "harder" sounding stuff with a pick - Green Dunlop Tortex, and the rest with my fingers.

Here's a hint to eliminate some of the finger squeak and noise - Elixir bass strings!! Man I love those things for bass!!!! Nice and slick feeling!

EQing - Well that's a matter of personal preference. I personally like a bit of a scouped mid sound with a nice round bottom end.....then enought upper mid/high's to give it some intellegability.

There are a lot of "notes" that you will find that never existed in your playing before, like a couple of examples would be when the guitars are playing a D you'd be on a F#, and if they're going from E to A you'd be on a G# - A.....stuff like that

Hope that helps a bit.....have fun,

Rick
 
wishtheend said:
3) Drop tunning. We are playing in Drop C, and I play on an ESP Viper-254 that's a four string. I've asked this question before, and they say just move to a 5-string but I've seen alot of bands where they tune that low but the bassist still rocks a 4-string. Any suggestions on how to setup, or kind of strings to help keep tension on the strings? Because of the heavy stuff, I like more tension on the lower strings.
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maybe i can help w this one.
I use a 4 string,I like it way too much to replace it w a 5 or 6 and could never afford an equal quality one if I tried.Often times in the last band i was in, my fat string was dropped all the way to B. :eek: I did have a bit of clangy "my strings are too loose" sound happening, but I liked it and thought it fit well w the music, simple hard rock.
i did this w my uber $ bass, and my cheap back up also.
I had no probs...all went well. :D
Its going to be pretty tough to retain any type of high string tension while tuned that low no matter the circumstances I believe.
stick w the 4 if thats what ya like.....I do. :D
try DR strings.
 
wishtheend said:
So I took the plunge into the bass world, and from being a guitarist prior, I feel like there are some aspects of bass that I'm clueless about. Hopefully you bass players can give me some answers or tips to make the trasition easier. I played guitar in a screamo/metal band for about 4 years, and I've played piano pretty much all my life. So I have a good understanding of all music theory, keeping time, and all that stuff. I just realized my dexterity really just wasn't capable of doing that kind of music I want to make (melodic-thrash/death).

1) I play with a pick and I find that I have a really hard time doing the really quick rhythmatic patterns when I follow the kick. Simple triplets and whatnot I can handle, but it's when we run into a section where the kick is just running the whole time with a speed picking guitar riff over it. I read somewhere that playing bass requires less force? Is this true? I played guitar with pretty hard strokes, so I'm guessing this could be part of the problem. But it seems like the lighter I play, the more string noise (scratching sound from pick on string) is audiable.

2) Bass EQ settings? The EQ range on bass is something completly new to me, since I'm use to the mid-high range on guitar. I'm looking for something with a nice beefy bottom end and the defintion of the note in the mid-highs. Something along the lines of Lamb of God or something. Any guidlines for the the current metal bass sound?

3) Drop tunning. We are playing in Drop C, and I play on an ESP Viper-254 that's a four string. I've asked this question before, and they say just move to a 5-string but I've seen alot of bands where they tune that low but the bassist still rocks a 4-string. Any suggestions on how to setup, or kind of strings to help keep tension on the strings? Because of the heavy stuff, I like more tension on the lower strings.

4) Why is volume different across the strings? I was doing recordings with the band and I did a DI'ed bass track and it seems like the lower two strings are alot quieter in comparision to the higher ones. Is there any way to remidy this besides compression?

Thanks to anyone who replies, and if there is anything else you think I should be told, don't hesitate in telling me. I realize that bass is a whole different animal from guitar and so I need to be taught.
Click to expand...

OK....I consider myself fairly experienced in playing bass for metal bands. Been doin it for 17 years.

1) Playing the bass metal style requires MORE force, from both hands. ESPECIALLY the fret fingers and picking wrist (if you MUST use pick.....). You need to acheive a consitent attack that has more volume than the string noise. BUT....string noise is important to a good bass sound. Play hard, play consistently, and find your sound. It will take experimentation.

2) For tuned down bass EQ, go easy on the lows. Focus on the mids and highs. All you need is solid fundamental tone with a bit of added flavor and definition. Sometimes the strings slappin off the neck sounds great for metal. Especially if you do not have any overdrive at all. How you play will give you most of your sound. You can't use a default metal setting. And remember that a great bass sound solo'd will likely dissappear behind the rest of the band.....and a great bass sound while playing with the band will often sound like ass solo'd.

3) You don't need to use 5 string. You can tune you 4 string to whatever you like. You'll just need to adjust to the differnt tensions. I have a 5 tuned to "C" and I use standard guage strings with great results....and I don't tune the low "B" UP to "C" either. I suggest using a heavy guage 4 string set of whatever brand you like. Not TOO heavy or you'll muddy up your tone. But in direct contradiction to point #1, you DO need to play a little easier as your string tension lessens. Otherwise you get too much noise. You must find the balance. Also check to make sure your neck is straight.....(not gay..HHAaa!!! :confused: ) really...I've seen a lot of bowed necks causing fret buzz.

4) That just plain should not happen. It is most likely a poor set up. Adjust the pickups to be closer to the quieter strings, farther away from the louder ones, or buy a better bass. :p Again, balance.

The most common mistake I see with new bassists, ESPECIALLY bassists who used to be guitarists, is that they play from a guitar point of view. Think more along the lines of texture. What can you do with the bass that is in key with guitars, but more WITH the drums...for texture, punch, and backbone. Don't double the guitar line all the time. But also, be VERY aware of overplaying. A bassist who does not over play is much better than one who does, no matter who has better chops or can play faster runs. You are in a role that supports the entire band.....leave the showing off to the singer and lead guitar player. Good, solid playing will make you look good. And often, simple is better anyway.

Good luck. :cool:
 
"A bassist who does not over play is much better than one who does, no matter who has better chops or can play faster runs. You are in a role that supports the entire band.....leave the showing off to the singer and lead guitar player. Good, solid playing will make you look good. And often, simple is better anyway."

You mean all that flying around I do on my 6 string bass tuned like a guitar is really not wanted.......I just thought everyone else was jelous! :D

j/k by the way...

I do like to throw my share of licks in though!!

Rick
 
wishtheend said:
So I took the plunge into the bass world, and from being a guitarist prior, I feel like there are some aspects of bass that I'm clueless about. Hopefully you bass players can give me some answers or tips to make the trasition easier. I played guitar in a screamo/metal band for about 4 years, and I've played piano pretty much all my life. So I have a good understanding of all music theory, keeping time, and all that stuff. I just realized my dexterity really just wasn't capable of doing that kind of music I want to make (melodic-thrash/death).
Click to expand...
Hey, this isn't a plunge, it's a promotion:).

wishtheend said:
1) I play with a pick and I find that I have a really hard time doing the really quick rhythmatic patterns when I follow the kick. Simple triplets and whatnot I can handle, but it's when we run into a section where the kick is just running the whole time with a speed picking guitar riff over it. I read somewhere that playing bass requires less force? Is this true? I played guitar with pretty hard strokes, so I'm guessing this could be part of the problem. But it seems like the lighter I play, the more string noise (scratching sound from pick on string) is audiable.
Click to expand...
The scratching sound is probably coming from holding the pick at a slight angle. Try striking a little harder and more square to the string. I hardly ever use a pick, so I can't really help you anymore than that.

You'll definitely need more force on the fretting hand. The strings are bigger, farther away from the fret board, and the frets are spaced farther apart. Your picking hand has ALOT farther to go to get across a bass string than it does a guitar string so you'll need more energy to get across the string. How much oomph you have to put into it would depend on the string, bass, pickup, etc. Even the highest string on a 4-string is like twice as thick as the low E on a guitar so this isn't really trivial, especially on longer runs.

wishtheend said:
2) Bass EQ settings? The EQ range on bass is something completly new to me, since I'm use to the mid-high range on guitar. I'm looking for something with a nice beefy bottom end and the defintion of the note in the mid-highs. Something along the lines of Lamb of God or something. Any guidlines for the the current metal bass sound?
Click to expand...
EQ Settings really depend on the band and of course the bass.

If there is only one guitar player who plays alot of leads, you'll want something that has a fair amount of body to fill "the void" that's left when the guitar play starts a solo. Most of that body will likely be lost behind the guitar during general rhythms though. It just shows up when the rhythm part disapears. But the real fullness would come from the part rather than the sound. The sound just helps.

If there is a rhythm guitar player, you'll probably want something with more depth on the bottom area surrounding the kick and up to the bottom of the guitars.

Sorry I don't have any specific numbers for you, I just play with the sliders until I find something that sounds good and doesn't drown everybody out.

As far as the more current sounds, most players I've heard usually scoop the mids and use a little distortion.

wishtheend said:
3) Drop tunning. We are playing in Drop C, and I play on an ESP Viper-254 that's a four string. I've asked this question before, and they say just move to a 5-string but I've seen alot of bands where they tune that low but the bassist still rocks a 4-string. Any suggestions on how to setup, or kind of strings to help keep tension on the strings? Because of the heavy stuff, I like more tension on the lower strings.
Click to expand...
Thicker strings. Yup, you have to move the pick even further :eek:. I actually like a little less tension on my strings though. It makes slap/pop type stuff a little bit easier.

wishtheend said:
4) Why is volume different across the strings? I was doing recordings with the band and I did a DI'ed bass track and it seems like the lower two strings are alot quieter in comparision to the higher ones. Is there any way to remidy this besides compression?
Click to expand...
That's one of the reasons I don't like using a pick. Find a different part of the string to pick. Picking closer to the bridge might help. I usually find that the closer to the neck I pick/pluck the quiter. The thicker the strings the more I see this happen. The bottom strings are generally felt more than heard though.

wishtheend said:
Thanks to anyone who replies, and if there is anything else you think I should be told, don't hesitate in telling me. I realize that bass is a whole different animal from guitar and so I need to be taught.
Click to expand...
Develop a love for the feeling you get when the kick is pounding you in the chest or when those 18'' subs vibrate your skull with those subsonic booms you get when you just tap the low E at the bridge and you'll get the instrument.

Another thing, most good bass part sound like crap by themselves. It's kind of like soloing a kick drum. It sounds good with everything else, but by itself, it just sounds like a couple of scattered phoomps. Or snare tracks that just drone on and on. You'll find stuff that really adds alot to the music, but soloed you could not for the life of you believe that you are even in tune or in time with the music.
 
I have been playing guitar for mumbledy mumble years, and I picked up the bass 2 or three years ago. The first thing I came to realize is how much I was getting away with on guitar when it comes to rhythm. As a bass player, timing is more important than notes. It's great when you have both, but if you have to choose (and all of us do at first) get your timing down and play ones.

Playing bass has made me a much better guitar player.
 
I know alot of people will dissagree with me I say throw the f*ing pick away and play with your fingers. For a couple of reasons:
- Dynamic control. You can actually play really soft notes and really loud notes and everything in between using finger style.
- Tone control! I cannot stress this enough. Listen to Jaco Pastorius, Rocco Prestia and Marcus Miller. All three play fingerstyle and all three use fender basses, yet their tones are so completely different and unique it's amazing. And that's a very big part so because of the fingerstyle.
- Speed. Try that 4 bar sixteenth pattern with your pick and not only will you highly likely fuck it up, you will also have a very big chance to loose all the power in your hand for the next couple of minutes. Yet, the show must go on, right?
- Strength. You can get an uber powerful tone without stressing your hand at all. Infact, you are more likely to overstress when using a pick resulting in a sound that is both too harsh and took way too much power to do.
- It's just a stupid idea to use a pick with a bass to me. Take a good look at the strings. At the thickness, the spacing, the action. There's absolutely no way you can throw the "but I can't get my finger in that tiny spot!" argument at me any more. Playing a super fast arpegio on an SG, ok, I can see why you'll want to use a pick for that, but for bass, nah, don't go there mate.
 
I'm not about to get into the pick vs fingers debate because there are just as many amazing bassist who play picked. I do plan on exercising my hand more for the flexibilty, but for the kind of metal the band is, and only having one guitarist, the pick sound right.

Thanks for all the info guys. You've given me some good things to think about and practice. I honestly think the 5-string is a nessicity when tunning so low, and trying to go so fast. But still, thanks guys.
 
pick vs fingers... the answer can only be found in how each one sounds rather than egocentric idealism. I replied earlier about using both, but it's solely based on how things sound in relation to everything else in the song. You know your songs and what bass sound you want in those songs better than anyone else. It is no debate to be handled as an either/or overall nature whatsoever. It's a bass player's personal debate which can easily avoid being polluted by the ideals of others. Good call on your part. It's how things sound.
 
I vote for fingers, but it has nothing to do with "egocentric idealism", whatever the heck that means. If you are finger plucking, you can use the fingers which are not plucking at the time to kill the sympathetic ringing of other strings, which was one little surprise in picking up bass that I had not anticipated. Also, if you (for example) jump two strings over, you can already have a finger poised to play the new note rather than having to reposition a pick.

Whatever floats yer boat, though.
 
yeah there are technique advantages both ways. The Rime of the Ancient Mariner bass bridge can be done both ways, but it's a whole lot easier to do it at the right tempo without a pick. Got the Time is easier with a pick but can be done with fingers. I like to leave the ultimate decision to be based on sound as the higher priority.

Doing those grind picking parts though... the sound from picking does thin it down to make it mix with guitars better (usually). Plus, it's the technically easier way. The pick would most often win out if it was me doing bass in songs of that nature.

I was in one of these bands in 1988. We were Carcass fans. I started feeling like bass guitar wasn't needed if the guitarists were tuned so low. I was playing with fingers, but I think I would have been happier with how things were turning out if I had done that particular job with a pick.
 
Since I spent 25 years developing my alternate and sweep picking techniques on electric guitar, I'm pretty darn sufficient at picking on a bass. But I alternate between fingers and pick depending on the song, drive, tempo, and complexity.

There are tones out there that just cannot be obtained by using fingers alone, and the same is true for the opposite.------I'd say learn to use both, and you'll be a much more versitial player than you would if you only used one or the other. :)

My 2 cents.

Rick
 
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