Surround question...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Michael Jones
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Michael Jones

Michael Jones

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You guys are probably sick of me and my pics by now, but I actually have a question this time.

The following pictures show how I intend to mount my rear surrounds.
The "soffit" is actually built INTO the wall, rather than ONTO the wall as is typical in soffit mounted MAINS.
Is there any problem mounting the REAR SURROUNDS this way?
 

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Here's another view:
 

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Sick of your pictures Michael? I should say not. Everything you post is great stuff. How the heck are we supposed to learn all this construction stuff unless guys like you, Frederic, Rush, and others post pictures of it? Especially studios from the ground up!

KEEP EM COMIN MICHAEL:D The more the better. I mean, don't hold nothin back ya hear?

About the surround speaker mounts. Are those going to penetrate your control room shell? It looks like it. Won't that compromise the iso construction?

fitZ:)
 
Hey Michael, I just noticed something. The boxes are fastened to the CR wall, correct?

IF so, maybe check barefoots design for fastening to the wall behind, whereby the isowall doesn't get structural transmittal throughout. I don't know if its applicable here, but his main soffit design is pretty cool. Anyway, its a thought.

fitZ
 
Damn, one more Michael. Say, how did you align the vertical and horizontal angles in relationship to the speaker baffles? With a string, math, framing squares, or what. I'd sure like to know that. Thanks
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
About the surround speaker mounts. Are those going to penetrate your control room shell? It looks like it. Won't that compromise the iso construction?

fitZ:)
Well, the speaker fills the cavity. It fits it EXACTLY. In fact, you have to really push it in there to seat it. Couple that with a solid wood "beauty plate" around the front, and you've got an air-tight seal.
I suppose I could put a back on the mount, but I'd be concerned about heat generated from the amp.
I'm using Event 20/20 bas's.

I dunno. Uncharted territory here....
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
Hey Michael, I just noticed something. The boxes are fastened to the CR wall, correct?

IF so, maybe check barefoots design for fastening to the wall behind, whereby the isowall doesn't get structural transmittal throughout. I don't know if its applicable here, but his main soffit design is pretty cool. Anyway, its a thought.

fitZ
Yeah, see, I thought about that too. Will the entire wall reverberate from the music played through the speaker? Maybe. But keep in mind these are REAR SURROUNDS. They wont be used for day-to-day tracking and mixing. In fact, I'd expect they get used only about 10% of the time. And 8% of that'll just be me showing off! :p
 
no expert in soffits here... looks real good from where I sit.

But I have to say I for one am not sick of your pictures. Ever.

You couldn't possibly post enough :D
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
Damn, one more Michael. Say, how did you align the vertical and horizontal angles in relationship to the speaker baffles? With a string, math, framing squares, or what. I'd sure like to know that. Thanks
In the plan view, I used typical surround sound geometry. I forget now... 120 degrees from the front wall?

In the vertical position, I used a methodology called "Ray Tracing".
I did it in my 3D cad lay-out. With the height I have them at, it worked out to 12 degrees down angle. (Funny how that angle keeps popping up!)

Anyway, sound from all of the speakers culminates at a single point in space about a foot behind my head while seated at the mix position. So, if you lean back when all the speakers are firing... your head will explode! :D
 
Michael,

I wish I had an answer to your question, but instead you just get a stupid post that echoes what Fitz and Frederic have already said, "you can't possibly post too many pictures of your studio"!! Watching what you guys are going through is an incredible learning experience for me, and I hope one day to be able to be going down the path of needing to design and construct a bigger facility (there I go; do one paying project and begin to get visions of grandeur).

I hope you figure this one out. I've already decided my "next generation" studio is going to be plagiarized heavily from the Carriage House design, so it has to work!!!

Darryl.....
 
Hey thanks Michael. I gotta say, this is TOOOOOO COOOOOL. I forgot about surround lately. Well, I guess its back to the drawing board. Ha! See what your pics do!

there I go; do one paying project and begin to get visions of grandeur).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!..........ME TOO!!

fitZ:D
 
Thanks guys! :)
Unless someone comes in and slaps me down, I think I'm going to go this route.
 
Michael, there is at least one thread with some basic insights on surround over on John's site (should be up sometime today, finally) -

For now, some basic points - according to Thomas, your baffle extensions (the wall surface you see as a finished install) should be quite stiff, NOT hard-coupled to speaker boxes, and several (like maybe 4-5) woofer diameters in any direction if possible. He's stated that speaker boxes tend to put out enough vibrations that they should be decoupled from the "baffle extensions" known as "soffits", or more correctly as "flush mounts" - Ideal, if you were building a super-anal, million-dollar room, would be concrete pedestals isolated from the rest of the concrete floor, with speakers mounted on them on thin pads (to avoid buzzes) - then these isolated "towers of sound" would be surrounded with a fake (but stiff) wall (the flush mount part) that was even with the front baffle of the speaker, did NOT touch the speaker but with less than 1/4" gap, said gap filled with soft fiberglas or similar, and again with the baffle extension continuing in the same plane as the speaker baffle for at least 4 woofer dimensions in any direction.

The large area of baffle extension keeps the speaker from exhibiting a "horn effect" for the woofer, which can narrow the sweet spot - that in turn can make the surround effect spottier than it otherwise would be.

Another aspect of surround that's different from an RFZ, stereo only room - virtually ALL the surround pioneers I've been aware of (Tom Holman, the "TH" in "THX", Bobby Owsinski, head of Surround Professional, to name a couple) - everyone who's publishing tends to make ANY surface that a speaker points toward ABSORBENT, so that surround speakers don't cause early reflections which cause phase smearing and screw up stereo imaging. Then, to avoid too "dry" a sound, they are "putting back" the ambience with DSP.

One method I've considered along this line to "have your cake and eat it too" is movable absorbers of some kind to be placed on front/side surfaces when mixing in surround. I've drawn one method on John's site that uses beveled "rails" to hang absorbers on when needed -

Another point is time delay - you need either all speakers (except maybe subs) to be equidistant from the mix position, or else there needs to be a sub-millisecond accurate delay on closer ones to compensate. Phasing problems again, especially at higher frequencies where (literally) 1/2" can be heard to cause a change.

For the degree you want to use surround for, other than path length (you didn't mention if it's equal) before you go any further I would enlarge your mounts enough to allow for a little more space around the 2020's, and set them on approximately 1/4" pads, softer than the typical neoprene - I've found that most "mouse pads" are a good consistency for isolation without allowing too much "rocking" of the speaker due to low freq cone excursion.

Then, you need enough space around the other sides of the speaker boxes for some "stuffing", as I mentioned - if you keep the actual opening thru the heavy "baffle extension" so that the gap between speaker and baffle extension is 1/4" or less, that will satisfy the need to eliminate diffraction effects of the lower mids "wrapping around" the edge of the speaker - the "stuffing" between speaker and baffle extension keeps this from being a problem with higher frequency, shorter wavelength sounds. For looks, some thin black or charcoal grey foam evenly pressed in around the speaker would keep things flush without showing any of the yellow fiberglas that's alongside the speaker box.

Ventilation for the amps has been drawn by John somewhere on the site, forget where - bottom and top of the flush mount's venting, basically, with absorption "breaking up" the possible reverberant "organ pipe" effect of an air column.

Don't think I missed too much here, but not finished with my coffee yet - If I raised any other questions, fire away and I'll give it a shot... Steve
 
Only the basic drawing of the "rail mounted" temp absorber hangers that I drew - Barefoot's drawings of isolated soffits are on John's site (still down last I checked, but supposed to be up today sometime)

If I remember correctly, Barefoot's design cantilevered the speaker mounts off the inner wall, then placed the baffle aligned with(but not touching) the "baffle extension" or flush wall part. Sort of like if you "lean out a window" to look around, but are careful not to actually touch the wall around the window with your body...

I'll see if my rail mount drawing will fit here, John's has a larger file size limit. Oops, wrong computer - this is (I think) the simpler of a couple... Steve
 

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Michael,

I spent some time and read through this all, and actually thought i could add something.

Unfortunately, as usual, Steve covered all the bases and left me nothing to do.......... :D :D :D

Seriously, he gave you some great advice..........


Rod
 
Thanks for "weighing in" Rod. ;)
I appreciate it. Steve beat you to the punch.

I still don't understand how to surface mount rear surrounds though. :confused:
 
Hey Michael, let me give it a shot in Autocad. It'l take me a couple of hours. I was planning on doing it for me anyway. Just to toss in here and let Steve critique it. I'll post it tomorrow or late tonight. I think I understand how this is supposed to work. Although, you know how "think" is with this stuff.:D However, there IS a problem that I see. I can't explain it but I can draw it. You'll see what I mean and actually, it may look kind of cool, if my thinking cap is on correctly, but its one thing to see it in CAD, and another to see it in 3D reality. But, I'll give it a shot just for drill:D . Dimensions will be arbitrary as it is just the concept. You could punch in your own if you like it.

12 degrees downslant, huh. And 120 degees. That one throws me. But I "think" I understand that one too. Ha!

fitZ:)
 
Alright Michael, I imported your layout for tubedude into Autocad, and got the overall wall angles, and rear surround speakers overlaid.. I think it was your room anyway, right. Anyway, I've already got a couple of questions. Michael, I want you to know I don't want to step on any toes here, this is purely to excercise that grey matter between my ears.:D So just take it with a grain of salt, but ya might have to add some tequila with it.:p Ha! But I do have a question if you don't mind. Are you using RC in the control room. And what are your layers of sheithing going to be? I can't remember, but since I'm going to copy your design:p I might as well know now!! Ha!!

Just think of it as Carriage house North! LOL> very LOL. Like who is he kiddin!!

fitZ:D
ps
Actually, its already coming along pretty well.
 
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