Suggestions for a 1" 16 Track?

Ignatius-

Ignatius-

New member
Hey everybody!
So, I'm currently in the market for a 1" 16 track and was wondering what you guys thought about some of these models:

TASCAM MS-16
TASCAM 85-16(b)
TASCAM ATR-60
OTARI MX-70

I know this has been discussed before, but it seems like the advanced search function got way worse with the new website here... Anyway, I've been doing a fair amount of research about this format around the interwebs, and it seems like the general response is either the pros saying, "Why don't you just get a MCI/Studer/Ampex 2" 24 track" and then the occasional, "I love my MS-16" or "the 85-16b is a TANK" (hate vs. love, if you will) ...

So, I wanted to get some of your opinions. Which of these machines would have the most spare parts available? Are there any obvious issues with any of these machines? I know the MS-16 has a rather intense (relatively) low-end bump... Does anyone know how that would compare to a TSR-8 or a 34b (the two machines I have the most experience on)? I've heard the MX-70 had an output problem (or something?) that is a pain to deal with... Also, it seems like parts for the MX-70 are very difficult to come by. Any thoughts?

Second question (and kind of a side note)... Why does it seem like everybody in the "professional" world hates on dbx noise reduction? Is the dbx NR in the MS-16 or 85-16b the same as a TSR-8 (my current machine)? I've used dbx noise reduction on my 34b and TSR-8, and quite frankly I kind of really like it (a lot). Is there anything different with the noise reduction in the TASCAM units? Sorry if this has already been addressed, but it seems like I can't find a straight answer... people don't even answer the question, just 'get a 2" machine...'

Thoughts?
 
Lots of thoughts here.

First of all, the dbx is going to be the essentially same regardless of the label on the chassis. The dbx circuitry is licensed from dbx. Doesn't matter that it says Tascam on the faceplate. dbx made Tascam come up with some proprietary interfacing so the licensed unit would only work with a specific device or family of devices, but that interfacing doesn't effect the audio path. There may be minor differences in input and output amplification, but the noise reduction circuitry and how it performs/behaves is the same.

If I was in the market for a 1" 16-track machine I'd be looking for an MS-16. Out of the machines on your list I think it will have the most abundant user support, good parts availability, is reliable and the amp design is unique to the 52/58/MS16. Tascam was taking a serious crack at the pro market at that time with those machines.

I think they're ALL good machines. My second choice would be the MX70. I believe it is a tank of a machine and has the advantage of having been offered as a 1" 8-track if you're interested in that and are lucky enough to find the parts.

Just get a 2" 24-track? Just keep in mind there is a whole gamut that comes with that step...everything is more expensive. Question #1 is do you need 24 tracks? If not but you want to run 2" then look for a 2" 16-track. But, before any of that just realize when you are deliberating its SO easy to let your thoughts start running; "well if I'm looking for a 1" machine I may as well get a 2" machine" etc., etc., etc.

Be clear to yourself what you want/need and why and stick to it.

Like I said, I'd be happy owning any one of them. The 85-16...if you go that route understand you want the 'B' version, and realize parts and community support will be lacking.

Hope that helps.
 
Ignatius- said:
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Second question (and kind of a side note)... Why does it seem like everybody in the "professional" world hates on dbx noise reduction? Is the dbx NR in the MS-16 or 85-16b the same as a TSR-8 (my current machine)? I've used dbx noise reduction on my 34b and TSR-8, and quite frankly I kind of really like it (a lot). Is there anything different with the noise reduction in the TASCAM units? Sorry if this has already been addressed, but it seems like I can't find a straight answer...
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As mentioned before, all dbx I units, regardless of who made them, operate the same and are compatible. The bulk of dbx "haters" are those that never bothered to read or ignored the dbx specs which require keeping record levels considerably lower than "+" anything. While the process is ok with occasional peaks of +2 or so, sustained elevated levels result in objectionable loss of high end and pumping/breathing.
 
I have an MS16 and it's a great machine. Upgrading from a Fostex R8 was the best decision I've ever made for my studio. So far, I've had no problems with it (except that the relays needed replacing when I got it). I've had it set up by Clive Kavan (the master of tape machines in England) and it sounds brilliant! I haven't had any experience with the big machines like Studer or Ampex etc. but it just isn't true when people say this machine sounds bad.

I'm quite into HiFi (I have a fairly 'entry level system' comprising Celestion F30s and a 40W valve amplifier) and, to my ears, the sound through that system when recorded on the MS16 is indistinguishable from the source material (CD or vinyl). Maybe it doesn't have the same 'character' or 'magic' as the real pro machines but to say it sounds bad is just wrong.

It's a brilliant machine.
 
Thanks for the suggestions guys! I was thinking that the MS-16 (15ips) is the machine I'm going to be looking for... It seems like the machine that was the most popular/most mass produced, so parts are going to be more available. But the ATR-60 looks like a killer machine too. Anyone here have experience with that machine? How does it compare to the MS-16?

Just get a 2" 24-track? Just keep in mind there is a whole gamut that comes with that step...everything is more expensive. Question #1 is do you need 24 tracks? If not but you want to run 2" then look for a 2" 16-track. But, before any of that just realize when you are deliberating its SO easy to let your thoughts start running; "well if I'm looking for a 1" machine I may as well get a 2" machine" etc., etc., etc.
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Oh, I guess I was saying I don't want a 2" machine... Tape cost alone is the main reason (also cabling). I've read people say that 1" tape is hard to come by, but I'm assuming that was back when RMGI was not manufacturing tape and you had to buy NOS or used tape. Now it seems like 1" tape is easily available in multiple formats from RMGI, so I'm not really worrying about it. Also, I used a 4 track for several years, and I kind of liked having a track limitation (for the music I make anyway)... 16 is going to be plenty.

Thanks for the info on the dbx! Good to know it's, pretty much, the same stuff. I, personally, do a lot of electronic recording and I really like the sound the dbx NR adds to a lot of that kind of music. I find it mellows out the sound a lot, and I really like that. I see where people are coming from with regards to acoustic instruments, but I normally just turn it off and push it into the machine on my TSR-8. That sounds great.

I have an MS16 and it's a great machine. Upgrading from a Fostex R8 was the best decision I've ever made for my studio. So far, I've had no problems with it (except that the relays needed replacing when I got it). I've had it set up by Clive Kavan (the master of tape machines in England) and it sounds brilliant! I haven't had any experience with the big machines like Studer or Ampex etc. but it just isn't true when people say this machine sounds bad.
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This is kind of where I'm at right now! I have no experience with the proverbial "big boys" but I feel like I've learned how to make a (in my opinion) pretty decent recording using a smaller format machine. Also, you end up with a recording that doesn't really sound like a lot of other recordings these days, and I really like that. A janky machine can give you a sound that is extremely hard to duplicate in the digital world... It's great to have this perspective on it. Thanks again!
 
So I found an MS-16 in a local studio, and they are willing to sell it! The guy who owns it said that the machine hasn't been in use in several years, but they replaced the heads on the machine and they have less than 100 hours on them! It's missing the NR units, but I am willing to have to find those at a later point (if need be).

He said they have a bunch of Ampex 456 (used once), and a bunch of NOS 3M 226 and 250 1" tape that they bought when 3M was blowing out the rest of their tape (he said it's still sealed and was not used on the machine). Now I know the 3M tape is very much known for being sticky (and the Ampex could be sticky too depending on the year)... Is there anything that could be wrong with the machine if sticky tape was used on it? The reason I ask is that I've heard SSS can manifest in many different ways (obviously, clogging up the tape path, but also low output, etc.). I have always bought new RMGI tape, and have never really dealt with any old tape that potentially could be sticky. Any suggestions on what to look for on the machine (regarding SSS)? I'm not that concerned, but I thought I would ask...
 
There is nothing that SSS will do to a tape machine that a good thorough cleaning will not correct, as far as I have found. Ive bought machines dirt cheap because they wouldn't run anymore for the owner, but came right back to life after cleaning them up real well.
 
There is nothing that SSS will do to a tape machine that a good thorough cleaning will not correct, as far as I have found. Ive bought machines dirt cheap because they wouldn't run anymore for the owner, but came right back to life after cleaning them up real well.
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Thanks! Just for reference, does the normal isopropyl alcohol treatment work in this situation? And then water (or rubber cleaner) on the pinch roller?
 
Yes. Get the best Isopropal you can get, like 99%. Dont be stingy with the q-tips either. Work from left to right on the tape path cleaning everything that comes into contact with the tape. Do not forget the lifters! They are generally retracted when you are cleaning and can be overlooked, dont make that mistake.

*edit: You may know this but it bears repeating. Be careful when cleaning the capstan. It is very easy for the alcohol to run down the capstan and into the top bearing. This is not good.
 
The MS-16 is a nice machine. Too bad about the missing dbx. If you want to save on tape costs and get nicely integrated dbx or Dolby S, the Tascam MSR-16 using half-inch tape is hard to beat IMO. You'll find a lot of Tascam fans out there, and that's partly because of the great parts support for legacy products. But when looking at used machines the best bet is to get the one in the best condition, whether that be Tascam, Otari, etc.
 
Right now there are two MS-16's in my area that are potentially available. The one I posted about earlier was a "make me an offer" kind of a deal (so I did) - this machine has brand new heads, but is missing the dbx units (I asked him if they were "missing" and he got angry because they were optional when the unit sold new... so technically they were not "missing"). I told him $1000 was what I was thinking for this machine (I should have low balled him, but he has no pressing need to sell it, and this machine seems like it's in amazing condition - and those brand new heads are already installed!). He said that sounded reasonable, but he had to talk to his co-studio owners. I'm kind of kicking myself after how readily he "accepted" that offer, but what are you gonna do...

The other is about a three hour drive away and the dude is asking $2600... He said the heads were relapped and have about 60 hours on them, it has everything (dbx included), and he has - to his estimate - potentially about $3000 worth of spare parts for the machine (if all of them were parted out and sold separately on ebay). I believe he has extras of all the heads, and the capstan motor... plus a bunch of other stuff. I'm a little torn as to which one to go with. I would love to score that whole lot, but $2600 is a whole bunch of money, and I don't really see myself needing that many extra parts (but who knows). I can't really afford $2600 right now anyway.

The MS-16 is a nice machine. Too bad about the missing dbx. If you want to save on tape costs and get nicely integrated dbx or Dolby S, the Tascam MSR-16 using half-inch tape is hard to beat IMO. You'll find a lot of Tascam fans out there, and that's partly because of the great parts support for legacy products. But when looking at used machines the best bet is to get the one in the best condition, whether that be Tascam, Otari, etc.
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Yeah, I have a TSR-8 and absolutely love it (the machine I have is super minty, and the transport on that machine so nice), but I am kind of looking for a machine with that WOW factor... not to say that the TSR-8 or MSR-16 are not awesome machines... I get this feeling that younger people (admittedly from my generation) who want to track to tape don't necessarily care what kind of tape machine it is. Just that it's stupid big and looks, I don't know, "proper". Knowing a lot of 20-somethings, we didn't really grow up seeing a lot of tape machines, so when you have something as big as a washing machine sitting in your studio it kind of makes an impression :o (regardless of what type of tape machine it is). I will definitely keep the TSR-8 around (I might even sync it with an MS-16 if I can get a hold of one of these machines!).
 
Yes, that is true that dbx was optional for the MS-16. I think I read into the early post that the dbx units had been with the machine but got lost or something. But if they were never purchased then they aren't missing per se. I think we all wish we had offered less when a seller accepts an offer too quickly, but ya never know until you make an offer. A grand is a pretty sweet deal for a machine like that... and with fairly new heads. Worries me a bit that the seller got mad over such a small issue. Other than that, if everything works as it should, think about it this way... you're getting 16 tracks on one-inch tape for less than I paid for my Tascam 246 4-track cassette when I bought it new. Just be sure that those heads were replaced when he said they were and the hours since are a low as he said they were. If he gets mad with the questions that could be a bad sign. He should have some kind of documentation from when the heads were replaced. I would ask for it in a nice way. Repair and maintenance docs should be included as a courtesy for your future reference.
 
Thanks for the advice everyone! The seller didn't really get that irritated with me asking about the dbx... it was through email correspondence so I may be over thinking it. I'm not too worried about him being an untrustworthy dude. Anyway, I will let you all know what happens. I'm still waiting to see if that offer is going to be accepted or not. We'll have to see.
 
Okay, so I took the plunge today... and I'm on the edge of regretting it now. I picked up that MS-16 from the aforementioned seller today. Machine, remote/auto-locator, VU's (obviously), TASCAM rack (not original casing it came in), and 5 rolls of 3M 966 and a pancake of 986 (yes, not 996... 966 and 986). I met him at his studio about two blocks from my space... he had the machine all ready to go in the front of the studio.

Okay, so now is where I fess up... I totally didn't test it before I bought it. I kind of took the dudes word for it, and now I'm feeling like a big idiot. First of all, I am really bad at determining wear on larger format tape heads (I've looked at examples online, but it seems like all heads are different looking... and I still feel like I don't know what I'm doing). I checked over the heads pretty thoroughly (as best I could in the light) and while I was doing it he insisted that they were almost brand new (as he had said before). The problem was that the heads (and all the guide, etc.) were covered with tape gunk, which made it even harder to determine the wear.

On a side note, I told him I wasn't going to pay for the NOS 3M tape that he had because I knew it was known for being sticky. The dude had like 40 reels of 3M 966, 986 and whatever else. I'm assuming he had used this tape on the machine recently because when I brought it back to my space, I had to spend 30 minutes cleaning everything off. When I finally looked at the heads close up without all the gunk, it appears that there is pretty significant wear on the repro head and it looks like it has a gap on the top track. Here are some pictures... Please tell me at least the sync head is usable...

The thing that got my hopes up a little, is that I was able to use one of the 3M 966 tapes to test the machine. Everything powers up perfectly, all the lights work, all functions appear to work on one run through... I recorded 1k test tones to tracks 1&2 and then 15&16. They played back off the sync head about 1db less than 0VU (no concern there), and there was no audible wow or flutter, etc. They sounded like they did on the way in. Fast forward, and rewind worked perfectly.

So I really don't know what's going on with this machine at this point. The repro head really looks like it has a gap in the top track, but the sync head played back just fine. Either way it doesn't seem like the heads are as brand new as he said. What do you guys think? He gave me a receipt (it was from a legit studio), and he genuinely wanted to hear about any problems with the machine. So, I'm thinking if the heads are gone, I might be able to return it to him... But then again the heads could be totally fine and I could be freaking out because I just dropped $1k and I'm a little short on money lol :eek:
 

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Buddy I'm really sorry to say but that is a high mileage machine from the looks of it. :(

The lifters have some *serious* wear and yes I do believe your repro head is gapped on track 1 and not far from doing the same thing on track 16. There looks to be an hourglass pattern on the repro head face which is often the result of improper tension (too high).

The sync head looks okay but honestly I wouldn't trust what I see based on the rest of the machine. Only way you can know for sure is send the block to JRF and pay for the evaluation fee.

I'm sorry, man. I am pretty sure I know what you are feeling right about now and it is just a sick, sick feeling.

If anybody else thinks I'm off my rocker say so and I'll be very happy if I'm wrong.
 
I've heard some people save wear on the repro head by installing a dummy pole and only installing the actual repro head when they need to do a line-up. Point is, you could run this deck in sync-only mode like the TSR and MSR machines. It's not ideal, but it's not like the machine is a door stop even with a dying repro head.

If you keep it, I would definitely try to obtain at least one spare head, though. Getting a report on the sync head's life is something to consider as well.
 
What a shame. It sucks to get excited about a new big purchase, only to be let down on closer inspection. I agree that even from photos the repro head is done, gone, toast. That machine has had a lot of miles put on it.

But, it isnt the end of the world. The lifters and non-roller guides can be turned to present a new surface to the tape path, so that isnt too worrying.

You have a couple of choices. If the owner is sincere in wanting to know how it works out, maybe you could negotiate some cash back? Failing that, a return for full money. Lastly, use it like the others have said using the rec/sync head and start the search for a decent head or heads.

You still have options! Cheer up, its always darkest before the dawn and all that rubbish!
 
To me, the pictures are un-conclusive other then showing the wear on the lifters and guide posts which can be rotated to a clean/unworn arc. The track one which "appears open" on the repro head might just be a light reflection. Otherwise, I'm not seeing any hour glass wear and sure as heck aren't seeing signs of that on the lifter arms, where the wear appears very even, top to bottom.

Before you freak out, test the deck! Make a recording on it from a good full range CD or other source. Listen back to it off of the repro head and note any critical differences that can't be compensated for through calibration. It could well be that the seller is in fact being honest and not blowing smoke up your ass about their condition.

The characteristic of a worn head is that the high frequency response will be elevated up untill the point of becoming open, at which point the high end disappears all together once it is in fact open. But if you're hearing highs off of it, it's not open!!!!

Cheers! :)
 
Hey everybody. Thanks, as always, for the help. After assessing the situation a little more, I contacted the seller and politely told him what I was seeing regarding the condition of the machine. I told him that it really wasn't in the condition that he said it was in and I just asked if I could return it to him and get my money back. He was very sorry and said he would have no problem doing that. He was really sorry that the machine wasn't in great condition, like he thought...

I figured this is probably the only time I will be able to return a tape machine that I wasn't happy with... And I'm really glad this dude was as understanding and he was. I guess I'll have to keep looking. I probably could've kept it and made it work, but I feel like I can better than this to begin with :). I'll definitely keep you guys posted on what I find next... I may have a line on an MX-70! We'll have to see!
 
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