Suggest A Mixer

[noisedude]

It sounds like your experience might be with a unit with problems, which can of course occur for any brand.

Uh ... no. They're just rubbish.

Moving vocal mics from one to the other results in no difference in sound that any one can hear through either speakers or headphones.

Why take out your poorly trained ears on unsuspecting newbies? Cos if you're seriously suggesting that a Mackie sounds no better than a Behringer then you've just discredited your own opinions.

They're cheap, disposable crap ... fine for those with ears so bad they can't tell the difference, but I can now after a couple of years of listening, so why inflict it any further.

Anyhow, live isn't the problem. If you're using these for recordings, it's not so much that you will hear 'problems', but you'll come back on here going, "How come my mixes sound a bit dull and lifeless?" and, "When I put everything together, there's just too much hiss, when I take that out it ruins the whole sound".

 

[shevsound]

Oh no! Another gear war.

Are Behringer really that bad? Ive never been attracted to using their desks but I certainly know that if I had to work with an unfamiliar desk I would prefer it to be a Behringer with 4-band and XLR out rather than some dusty, unknown bit of kit or something that just didnt have the features to do a good basic recording.

I used to think that Soundcraft were pretty "respectable" and so I bought an M12 (mainly for the direct channel outs and the SPDIF mix out), but when I upgraded my monitoring system, the cross talk and noise floor from the desk were appauling!

I dont think its a safe rule of thumb to judge such complex pieces of hardware by the manufacturer. I feel more comfortable giving honest comments on pieces of euipment that I own and work with on a regular basis rather than starting - for example a "Anti Soundcraft" bombardment based on my experiences of only one of their desks.

 

[noisedude]

Are Behringer really that bad? Ive never been attracted to using their desks but I certainly know that if I had to work with an unfamiliar desk I would prefer it to be a Behringer with 4-band and XLR out rather than some dusty, unknown bit of kit or something that just didnt have the features to do a good basic recording.

Of course! But that's not the comparison here. Behringer or Yamaha? Behringer or Mackie? That's a different question.

I used to think that Soundcraft were pretty "respectable" and so I bought an M12 (mainly for the direct channel outs and the SPDIF mix out), but when I upgraded my monitoring system, the cross talk and noise floor from the desk were appauling!

Not used it, sounds like a stinker though!! Could of course be to do with other things like funny mains supply ... my computer makes every stereo in the house hiss!

I dont think its a safe rule of thumb to judge such complex pieces of hardware by the manufacturer. I feel more comfortable giving honest comments on pieces of euipment that I own and work with on a regular basis rather than starting - for example a "Anti Soundcraft" bombardment based on my experiences of only one of their desks.

So you wouldn't, for example, listen to a review of a computer component? Because that would be generalising?

If you think I'm interested in Anti-Anything then you're still not hearing me. I'm a student - I'm way too skint to cut off my nose, if it's good value then I'm interested. I twice made the mistake of thinking Behringer mixers represented good value, and twice have had to realise their general shiteness. This isn't defectiveness (although both developed faults which were), but compared to other mixers of similar or identical price they just don't hold up.

Have you ever felt the weight of a Mackie against a Behringer? That's the weight of the extra casing, which equals protection for your components. Seriously, even one of those little Tapco Mackie-lites weigh more.

I'm going to pick up a little UB502 for onstage monitoring of my keys when I'm playing at church. The PA ain't amazing so there'll probably be no audible difference, and having a little master EQ nearby can't hurt. But I'm not putting it in my recording chain ... not when I've saved so much to get it out to start with ...

 

[Ed Dixon]

Uh ... no. They're just rubbish.

Why take out your poorly trained ears on unsuspecting newbies? Cos if you're seriously suggesting that a Mackie sounds no better than a Behringer then you've just discredited your own opinions.

They're cheap, disposable crap ... fine for those with ears so bad they can't tell the difference, but I can now after a couple of years of listening, so why inflict it any further.

Your have your opinion and others have theirs. I'll match my ears with anyone else. I know nothing about your experience, but I have been doing this for about 40 years. You would be better served to offer your opinions based on your experience and avoid making claims about others who you know little or nothing about.

What I am saying is that when compared using both speakers and headphones, no one could tell the difference. This includes a test involving multiple people who do sound. You may not want to believe that, but that is what occurred. That is not to say that this is always the case, but it was in this instance.

Ed

 

[shevsound]

So you wouldn't, for example, listen to a review of a computer component? Because that would be generalising?

Not quite sure what you mean there - I would listen to a review on a product that the reviewer had tested - but I would'nt go on opinion of the company.

Please dont take the "anti" thing as a direct assault. Just that ive only been posting on here for a couple of days and the discussions seem to turn to camps of followers of each brand bombarding each other with "Beh****er suck" etc all too quickly. I can imagine being a newbie and being uncomfortable buying a certain piece of gear because of "gear wars" on forums like this.

Must say though - you only really notice the problems with the budget products when you move up to something a little better. Personally I dont hold behringer in high regard, simply because certain other brands do it better. But im gonna be need some DIs for a project in June and Behringer are gonna come to my wallet's rescue with their very reasonably priced Ultra DIs.

I am guilty of basing my purchases on company reputation myself - as with the Soundcraft M12 (yes it was a stinker - though it seemed fine through my previous monitors (Tannoy HiFi speakers) and worked for what I needed it for back then. Also, the next time I upgrade my monitors and ditch my Tannoy Reveals (with their slight lack of low end) and go for some Mackie 824s - okay I can monitor perfectly well on the Tannoys but on a AB comparisson I know that I prefer the Mackies, just at the time I was buying - the Tannoys were the best solution to fit with my budget.

I have spent time dicussing mixers with live engineers who hate Mackie and love Allen & Heath ("Grief" as they are sometimes referred to). I am glad I wasnt swayed by their opinion and horror stories and love my Mackie equipment (desk and multitracker) to bits. Apart from the one problem I had with the jack sockets, they have proved themselves to be reliable and hard wearing.

 

[Ed Dixon]

But im gonna be need some DIs for a project in June and Behringer are gonna come to my wallet's rescue with their very reasonably priced Ultra DIs.

One worth considering is their ULTRA-DI DI20 unit. It has 2 channels in a single small box. Costs about $30. I have had one for about a month and it works great.

Have also used their DI100 units as well. We had about 6 of them and all continiue to work well.

Ed

 

[shevsound]

Cheers Ed!

Thanks for the suggestion. The project im recording is a 5 movement "Youth music project" - quite tricky to explain as it will feature guitarists, tribal percussionists, a choir, synths and a small orchestra! We have a couple of days at the rehearsal venue to get the tracks down as clean as possible and then I will be recording the same thing again at the live performance outdoors. However, due to the randomness of positioning in some live concerts, I think i'd be safer sticking with separate units rather 2 in 1 solutions just in case they decide to space any DI'able instruments way apart.

Im also at that funny stage where Im having to take the step to getting some more "big name" mics as my stock currently consists of Rodes (nothing wrong with them!) and various other "budget" mics. Unfortunatley though, I cant quite justify shelling out for a U87 with my current work rate.

Thanks for the tips though!

 

[Ed Dixon]

On Musicians Friend the DI100 was $35. The 2 channel DI20 was $25. The DI20 seemed like a much better deal, even if only one of the two channels was used. I have used both and cannot tell the difference between the sound.

In those cases where you have 2 inputs close, the DI20 ends up costing about $12.50 a channel.

Ed

 

[shevsound]

Right you are!

Yep - just looking in my Studiospares catalogue and yes the D120 is £19.50 GBP as opposed to £26.90 for the DI100! Cheers, you've swayed me! If only buy 1-get 1 free offers were more prevailant in pro audio sales!!

 

[Ed Dixon]

I run a stereo guitar rig, so the 2 channel works well for the cases when we have 2 inputs available. At church I use only one as channel limitations are the driving factor.

Ed

 

[Ed Dixon]

Also, as the DI20 is phanton powered, the red light on the front is a quick way to confirm I am actually connected to the board some 100 feet away. That has come in handy more than once...

Ed

 

[Mike_Jandreau]

Fact of the matter is, everything electronic (for the most part) is made by hand. So, if your Behringer Mixer crapped out on you, and died, then it was probably defective, or poorly hand built.

However, the people who've had good experiences with them (ie, myself, Ed, and others), have gotten well made mixers, with no problems whatsoever. I have an 3228, and I love it to death. I originally looked into it based on the price, but now I love everything about it. It's a great board.

It's like the same thread everyone's been writing about the Oktava MK012 mics. Some of them are amazing (assuming you can get a matched pair), and others say they're crap, and break instantly. It all depends on which worker in the factory put all those billion little pieces together that day.

Hand built means shit can go wrong. Don't base your opinions on a company solely because of a bad experience you had. Behringer are good, afforadable mixers. Especially for a beginner - intermediate user. We're not talking about going out and dropping $35K on a board here, he's only got a $1200 budget. And let's face it, buying shit off Ebay is just a bad idea. 6/10 times you get something and it's not what you wanted, not how it was described, or UPS broke the damn thing. So, do yourself a favor, and go to a trustworthy shop. Not Guitar Sucker.. er Center, or anything like that. But the little shops around your town where you know the Sales guy, and know he's not just trying to rape you and take your money. It'll save you the assache in the long run.

Hope that helps. Probably not, but who cares.

 

[noisedude]

Right. Let's clear some stuff up, because it's clear you people still won't listen. You keep saying the same thing over and over.

He's got $1200. No-one in their right mind is gonna drop that much of money on a budget mixer. That's just crazy. You want something good for that money.

The difference between these mixers and Oktava mics is that you never find an amazing Behringer. They're just not that good.

As I keep saying, it's not to do with problems necessarily, it's to do with inferior sound quality. Ed, I'm sorry you can't hear the difference between Behringer and Mackie mixers, but that doesn't mean the difference isn't there. I've made my experience level perfectly clear and as I said, I've learnt over my first couple of years to hear the difference. I do that blind, in the store, with the guy playing stuff through different mixers and me writing down what I think of the sound. Behringer comes off bottom every time. Sorry!

I'm not talking about all Behringer stuff! Jeez, you people are either retarded or more interested in a scrap than reading!

Those chunky stage DIs are actually very good VFM - I've not used the DI20 but would probably be slightly suspicious. I've also heard very good things about their compressors, and those £30 patchbays are mint if you can manage unbalanced.

As for talking about pairing Neumanns with Behringer preamps ... have any of you picked up a real preamp to hear the difference? I'm not being funny, but the pres in the biggest UB are the same as in the smallest £25 quid one. Do you really want a preamp that cost about 50 cents running your $500 mics?

I've never had any trouble with ebay, bought guitars brand new, computer parts and mics. I guess you have to be careful, but if you're looking at a recently refurbished Allen and Heath 16ch for £200 ... well you owe it to yourself to try it out!

As for saying you can only hear when you move to better gear - I don't own any better gear. I can hear that this Behringer mi**r is crap. It's not difficult, I recognise the sound from the others I've had or used. It sounds very different from a Mackie or from any standalone pre. Don't patronise me with your age and then tell me there's no difference. Maybe your ears haven't learned all that much in 40 years?

 

[noisedude]

BTW - That's it for me with this thread, unless you have anything new to offer - I'm not being rude, I'm in the middle of exams so I'll have to duke it out with you guys another time

 

[Mike_Jandreau]

All I'm saying, is I like mine. And it's worth every penny I paid for it. If you don't like them, that's fine. But don't bash a company based on what you know. They get very good reviews, and everyone says they're "good for the money". Which is exactly what Ed and I are trying to convey.

Done.

 

[noisedude]

But don't bash a company based on what you know.

I'm not talking about all Behringer stuff!

Listen, dammit. And you should look at the bulk of experiences on here, not whatever the salesman or the magazine funded by the manufacturer told you.

They get very good reviews, and everyone says they're "good for the money".

No they don't and no they don't. Since Yamaha MGs came out, they're positively bad for money and the music stores round here are seeing sense and pulling the Behringers because they cost so much shipping back for repairs.

 

[shevsound]

Well, its good that we're all passionate about it!

I wonder how that heated dicussion on the "Farley trowel" or "Hammerson Earth Slicer" is doing over at Gardeningforum.com.......................

 

[Ed Dixon]

Noisedude, you need an attitude adjustment. You seem to have the point of view that anyone who does not agree with you is either not listening or retarded. Neither is correct.

As I said more than once, for the case at hand NO ONE could hear any difference. That does not mean there is no difference, only that NO ONE (which included a number of people with sound experience) heard any difference. Please understand that this is a fact, not an opinion. That is exactly what occurred.

Lots of people post on these boards. When it comes to Behringer gear, most are either mostly pro or mostly con. There is not so much middle ground. I am conveying my experiences with the gear as are others. Each can take it or leave it as they see fit.

Ed

 

[Mike_Jandreau]

Maybe it's an overseas thing then. Because myself, and everyone here in the States that I know that has a Behringer mixer, has had no problems with them, and all would recommend them to anyone asking.

Don't take such offense, you're coming off as a pompus prick who thinks he's better than everyone else. You're entitled to your opinion. But stop trying to crap it down everyone else's throats. You're starting to sound like a bible-thumper trying to tell me that Jesus saved me.

Get over it, move on.

 

[noisedude]

I'm not better. I'm a relative newbie. As is happens, I'm also a Christian, but if you hold that against me too I've got no chance.

As I said more than once, for the case at hand NO ONE could hear any difference. That does not mean there is no difference, only that NO ONE (which included a number of people with sound experience) heard any difference.

That's cool - we agree. I'm saying there is a difference and you're saying you can't hear it. As long as you recognise that there may well be a difference you couldn't hear then that's fine.

If people listen and respond and disagree, I'm totally fine with that. If you re-read this thread you'll see that what's actually happened is people typing out their opinion over and over again without reference to what I've actually said. The process goes:

"Hmmm this guy hates Behringer [which is obviously wrong], I'll write that as far as I know Behringer make the best budget gear, that way people will know to buy it"

The problem is that they don't make the best budget mixers - right now Yamaha do. It's not an 'overseas' thing because they're all made at the same factory ... unless you're suggesting Brits have a more discerning ear, which I couldn't possibly comment on . There's not one person with a well-trained ear who would recommend buy a cheap Behri over a cheap Yamaha. They're the same price but the sound and build quality is light years apart. Mackie is overpriced. I'd never buy a Mackie mixer - if I'm spending big money I want a big product. Hence my recommendation that if you're spending four-figures' worth of wad on a mixer, you shouldn't be picking up stuff that's just scaled-up versions of the £25 junk kids buy to play with.