Studio Projects VTB1?

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Chessrock, tried the MP20 at a local Guitar Center;

1) Microphones used were the SM57, and Oktava MC012.
2) Monitors were the Mackie 824 and the KRK V8.
3) Test subject was yours truly's big mouth (vocal).
4) "Area door" was closed in order to shut out store noise.
5) AKG 240 headphones were used to cross reference.
(I have 240 DF's at home)

If and when I record any professional demo work the VTB-1 will
be BROUGHT to any pro studio used (control freak that I am!).
You can get commercial release level sound IMHO.

Chris

P.S. Although a Studio Projects C1 sounds better than a '57
or MC012 on my voice, GC doesn't carry these.
I do, however, have both of these two other microphones
at home also.
 
chessparov said:
Chessrock, tried the MP20 at a local Guitar Center
Click to expand...

Well, that's nice and all . . .

But it would be even nicer were you to actually test a few different pres in the same environment using the exact same mics. The differences are just too subtle to be able to say: "Oh yea, I tried mic pre X at the local guitar center on a 57, pre Y at my buddy's house on an mc012, and mic pre Z at the neighbor's on a C1. And there's no doubt that mic pre X is the superior of the bunch." :D

I know you have good ears and all, but it just doesn't work that way.

And no . . . you're not lugging your VTB1 to a pro studio that has neves, focusrites, cranesongs, yada yada yada . . .

I won't let you. :D
 
It really is incredible how everybody can sit here and debate the validity of a products worthiness upon hearsay and a few well respected opinions.If you don't own one or atleast have heard one first hand than what good is it to endorse or dismiss a product upon someone elses recommendations?Even if you own one of these products considering different tracking environments,microphones,and engineering abilities who can really say this is the product for all situations? I understand that alot of bbs members do not live in a region where they can drive 20 minutes let alone a couple of hours to test drive new products from studio projects or fmr audio so, therefore many members have to rely somewhat on the recommendations of others as to what products are the best bang for there bucks.I live in Canton, Michigan and there aren't any retailers within 30 minutes or even an hour of me that carry them on hand.Alan&FMR can you address this issue? With that said, I believe there's a place for every mic pre and at every price point.They all have there pros and cons and frankly I'm just estatic that we have the opportunity to afford most of these products without having to refinance our homes.Thirty years ago,forget about it...We are all extremely lucky to have professional grade products at unprofessional prices.I encourage competition as it brings better products to the market year after year for us all to enjoy in our endeavor to make professional quality recordings..:D
 
Chessrock, sorry if I wasn't clear...
I'm VERY familiar with the sound of the '57 and MC012 as they're
sung through 2 or 3 times a week.
Been using the AKG 240DF's for several years also.
You're absolutely correct that the best way to get better accuracy
would be under a more controlled situation.

However...
Even adding in the less controlled nature of what was done,
there's enough of a gap in the perceived quality of the VTB-1
and the MP20 to safely render judgement IMNSHO.

If you blindfolded me and had me listen to a talented college opera singer at Radio City Music Hall, then had Pavoratti sing
for me in Guitar Center-yes I could "tell" the difference!
(or had one on cassette, the other on CD)

Chris

P.S. O.K., the VTB-1's staying in the car at the studio though
for "back up"!
 
Alan, the varying degrees of respect that owners of audio
equipment companies get is worthy of a thread in and of itself.
Meeting the people like yourself recently at the AES convention
in L.A. was a blast. There's plenty of room for all kinds of personalities as you know.

The commonality among us all gear addicted entities is our love
for recording, whether they're "pros" like you, Harvey, Fletcher,
or "amateurs" like myself.

Chessrock, the greatest "amateur" in my other esoteric world, chess, was the late great Mikhail Tal. Although he was a world champion his love for chess was legendary. He'd play anyone he had time for a game with. He wasn't interested in playing
"correct" moves, just winning games by beautiful combinations.
Many grandmasters would find mistakes in his play after he would win an apparently "bulletproof" game.
Usually days/weeks/years later in the comfort of home!
The moral of this story is... (with all due respect)
Worry less, record more!
Nobody has ever returned a CD because it was recorded with a
"Brand X" mic pre. (well maybe if it was a Bellari or Behringer)

Chris
 
Hey Chessparov!

Off-topic, but didn't you just love it when the current champ kicked the big computer's ass recently? Even Kasparov wasn't so convincing. It always feels good when John Henry beats the machine.

Ever play Go? I've been playing for over 30 years - I love that game.
 
chessparov said:
However...Even adding in the less controlled nature of what was done, there's enough of a gap in the perceived quality of the VTB-1 and the MP20 to safely render judgement IMNSHO.
Click to expand...

Just an fyi -- Room accoustics play a huge role in the sound reproduced. The mics used play a huge role. Humidity plays a huge role. The quality of each mic will vary from mic to mic. Guitar Center's sm57 (used and auditioned by tons of people every day) may not sound as good as your 57 (well-kept and maintained in a home studio). That also plays a huge role.

The difference in sonic quality between mic pre A and mic pre B? That plays a very minor role compared to the factors I just mentioned.

So I'm still a little confused as to how one could come to such conclusions (that one pre is better than the other) . . . without hearing them in the same environment with the same equipment on the same day. Not to bust your chops or anything, Chess. But I'm just stating that I choose not to trust your opinions in this particular case, because your methodology for comparison is seriously flawed. That's all.
 
Littledog, yeah I love it when us humans win!
As a kid, I learned a bit about Go, just didn't put the time in it like
chess (or even checkers!). It's a great game too.

Chessrock, lemme see...

1) The SM57 and MC 012 were in good working order.
(I can "earball" a bad one or good one)
2) Room acoustics were mitigated by the AKG headphones,
also in good condition.
3) My ears are extremely sensitized to vocal sounds having the
good fortune of hearing 20+ good singers a week to listen to
over approximately the last 8 or 10 years.
(plus getting comments like "you're a 16th flat on that note"
from strong singers who REALLY bust my chops!)

So it's not as dire as my informal "test" may seem.
And you're certainly right it's not perfect.
Keep in mind my "chess mentality" extends to audio in making
judgements on sonic qualities.

Chess masters (like myself) and grandmasters consciously or not
use a thinking pattern called "the zone of certainty".
When the inherent variables in a postion exceed the human capabilities to exhaustively calculate, we still make our moves
based on past experience and intuitive feel.
When you are familiar with certain variables over a long period
of time, your mind can extrapolate to compensate for differences.
This can apply to understanding differences in the basic sound
of each recording device. Sorry if this sounds boring, it does work.

The ability to make consistant vocal sounds is a much bigger factor as a variable than humidity BTW.
Your intent on establishing a better controlled environment is
admirable, it's just not necesary for me to go to that extent
to be personally convinced. (everyone's different)
Whew!

Chris
 
littledog said:
Hey Chessparov!

Off-topic, but didn't you just love it when the current champ kicked the big computer's ass recently? Even Kasparov wasn't so convincing. It always feels good when John Henry beats the machine.

Ever play Go? I've been playing for over 30 years - I love that game.
Click to expand...

i thought the computer just got through kicking the champ's ass to pull even at 2-2.
 
chessparov said:
Chess masters (like myself) and grandmasters consciously or not use a thinking pattern called "the zone of certainty".
When the inherent variables in a postion exceed the human capabilities to exhaustively calculate, we still make our moves
based on past experience and intuitive feel.

When you are familiar with certain variables over a long period
of time, your mind can extrapolate to compensate for differences.
This can apply to understanding differences in the basic sound
of each recording device. Sorry if this sounds boring, it does work.
Click to expand...

I can relate to that really well, Chess. In fact, I employ a very similar "zone of certainty" technique when it comes to wading through bullshit. :D Does it look like shit? Does it smell like it? Hmmm. After a while it becomes a matter of past experience and intuitive feel, just like with chess. Now I see why we share the same name. :D
 
Chessrock, maybe we were separated at birth!
Long lost twins perhaps?

Seriously, hope my longwinded post made some sense.

Chris
 
ozraves said:


i thought the computer just got through kicking the champ's ass to pull even at 2-2.
Click to expand...


Ooops! I haven't been keeping up to date! Damn those computers!
 
harley96 said:
.I live in Canton, Michigan and there aren't any retailers within 30 minutes or even an hour of me that carry them on hand.Alan&FMR can you address this issue?
Click to expand...

We decided not to deal with the chain stores, so our distribution is done via the independants. WE have 86 dealers across the country, but this leaves us with a lot of holes.

This is why we deal with Sweetwater, Musicians Friend, and other dedicated mailorder houses. This way you can get the product and return them if you don't like them. The dealers will do the same, but like I said, we do have holes so it is up to our local rep firms to get out and sell the dealers. You know not every dealer in a small local area wants to carry more product, so this is an issue we deal with.

I think it has become easy to get our products. It seems everybody knows where you can get them and are very helpful in steering those who ask to an online or local dealer. With that said, Guitar Center has been calling every week for months to get the mics, but I am not sure if we should do it.

If we do, do we may piss off our independants, and end up destroyed at Guitar Center after they chew us up and spit us out. Feedback appreciated... I am concerned that they would lower the street price of the mic and then the independants would loose interst if it did not make them some money.

So, this is my take and you have to ask FMR on theirs.
 
Wow! That's a tough call, Alan. In the short run, Guitar Center pushing your products would certainly mean greater sales and exposure for SP, but as you say, it has it's drawbacks too.

I'm kind of hoping you don't do it, even though it would make seeing your stuff more convenient for a lot of people. I think your loyal independent dealers deserve some consideration and support, and there's a certain romantic cachet attatched to NOT being in Guitar Center - products that can only be purchased at pro audio dealers sometimes, rightly or wrongly, are considered more exotic or high end than those you can get at Mars, etc.

In the end, it will probably be your accountants and sales experts that make the decision. I'll be interested to see what happens.
 
I second that opinion because I have my local supplier, and hes a friend of mine. In fact if you are in the midwest the man to see is Russ at homestudiomusician.com. in Olathe Ks. I have been using My vtb-1 on all vocal sessions since Ive got it. Last night I replaced my tube with a mullard 12ax7a and I noticed something that I havent seen with the tube provided, the mullard lights up. tommorow Ill try it with the new tube on something.
 
littledog said:
Wow! That's a tough call, Alan. In the short run, Guitar Center pushing your products would certainly mean greater sales and exposure for SP, but as you say, it has it's drawbacks too.
Click to expand...

Not to mention being able to demo a unit before purchasing one.I understand it's a double edged sword between going the guitar center route versus independents.I agree, I like to give to the local music stores before considering going to guitar centers but that "same as cash" for a year is a killer...lol Thankfully, my wife has put a gps system in my car and anytime I get within a few miles of a GC my car stalls on me.Probably better for the finances.
:D Get a hold of one of your reps here in michigan and have him talk to Mike Careys music in Southgate.Mike is a independent music store and I'm sure he'd be interested in selling your products,alot of foot traffic for being an independent. I'm just the kind of guy that likes to pick up my gear in person.
If I have a problem I drive locally and all is well.Greg
 
I hear you all. GC scares me, which is why I like the independants...
 
Old marketing technique..

As the product sales curve turns down, move product to mass distributor. Lower margin but higher volume. Your current base should not mind if they are not hitting their sales targets.

Give your new products only to your current dealers to keep their margins and interest on your products. Those items which do not sell well in the existing dealers, get moved to the mass distributor.

Of course, one hand does not need to know what the other hand is doing. Take care of complaints on case by case basis.
 
Entering a "pact" with Guitar Center is like a starlet posing in a Playboy
centerfold to gain exposure for TV and movies roles...

My gut sense is that it would be a mistake to get involved with
Guitar Center. Their focus seems to be "bottom line" rather than loyalty
based. Customer service issues with them will drive you up the wall!
I suspect it was a hassle dealing with them with the Joe Meek line.

Chris
 
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