Studio Projects C1

[acorec]

There's no doubt that most of those in the market for a C1 have never heard a Neumann in the flesh, but plenty who have USED the C1 have, and the C1 holds up well to the comparison. Is it as good as the Neumann? No. Does it matter? Not a bit. We're talking a couple hundred against a few thousand. The C1 comes close enough for most purposes.

As for Chinese mic harshness, there can indeed be a bit of that, but with the right pre and some knowledge of EQ can take care of much of that. Also, many of us have been conditioned -- by this very forum -- to expect that harshness. So what do we get? Surprise, surprise.

The C1 is a fine mic. Not every mainstream recording was done with a Neumann. And many of them were done with those very same harsh Chinese mics.

I agree with you 100%.

Nicely said.

 

[jeffree]

Just curious, Alan, if you're still reading... You mention the 10-12K bump in the C1's response, so how does the B1 compare? And is there any printed source for comparing the relative sound (as subjective as that can be, I know) of the various SP models? I don't find my B1s to be especially bright but I haven't compared them to the C1 or other SP models. I'd appreciate your take on this issue.

J.

 

[Strave]

The first harmonic is an octave up, or 20kHz for a fundamental of 10kHz. The second harmonic is indeed a perfect 5th, or 3/2, but of the first harmonic, not of the fundamental, which for a fundamental frequency of 10k would be 30k. If there's non-harmonic noise, of course, it could be at any frequency.

Thanks got it now.

 

[DJL]

Dude I know more than anyone.....I was head of the spam police long before you got here lol......and i take my shot at Alan from time to time......but not EACH and EVERY time SP is mentioned in a post.......

Well heck... no wonder you seem so tired. Well, get in the back and buckle up... because I have a feeling it's going to be a long ride before we get there... but there's an issue of flip-flop in the back you can read on the way... lol.

noisedude... thanks again for the kind words.

Anyway... it seems I'm not allowed to openly speak my opinion of PMI-AG, so I'd like to butt out of this SP/PMI-AG thread... if that is ok with everyone. Thanks

Bye,
Don

 

[chessrock]

Well, get in the back and buckle up... because I have a feeling it's going to be a long ride before we get there... but there's an issue of flip-flop in the back you can read on the way... lol.

Ooh, funny. So I hope your car changes direction well.

Ya know, sometimes silence really does speak louder than words. Not that I'm one to talk or anything.

 

[crazydoc]

Anyway... it seems I'm not allowed to openly speak my opinion of PMI-AG, so I'd like to butt out of this SP/PMI-AG thread... if that is ok with everyone. Thanks

Bye,
Don

I think that's very wise of you. I'd give you some rep points for it, but I still haven't "given it to" enough people here to give it to you again.

 

[DJL]

chessrock gets a tube, and...

I think that's very wise of you. I'd give you some rep points for it, but I still haven't "given it to" enough people here to give it to you again.

Thanks doc... well charge up and hit me again with some luv.

I'm out of here.

 

[arcanemethods]

But is that true? I don't think so. For example... a 5th above 10,000 Hz would be 15,000 Hz (3/2)... the TV sweep is at 15,600 or so and I definately hear that. Maybe they are indistinguishable when just listening to the tone... but altering harmonics in a tone above 10,000 Hz definately changes the tone's timbre and they do become apparent. I guess I'm saying I disagree... anybody here that can shed some light on this?

Except that there isn't a distortion mechanism that will give you 3/2x. What you get is 2x, 3x, etc. The first harmonic generated above 10 kHz would thus be at 20 kHz.

I have tried different waveforms with frequencies above 10 kHz and they all sould exactly like sin waves to me. OTOH, I've long believed that testing via sinusoids does not necessasarily disclose the full range of hearing but that's a whole 'nother argument. I think it would take young, virgin ears to prove or disprove that, though, and mine are neither.


Bob

 

[chessrock]

Since this thread has taken a rather interesting and unexpectedly education turn ... I was wondering if any of you has any insight as to why distortion can sound harsh to our ears if it's in the higher frequencies ... yet oftentimes pleasing if it's in the midrange and lower frequencies (?)

What is it, about the distortion, that causes the sensation of "pain" or fatigue to our ears ... and why is it so pronounced at higher versus lower frequences? I'd be interested in the theories.

 

[mshilarious]

Since this thread has taken a rather interesting and unexpectedly education turn ... I was wondering if any of you has any insight as to why distortion can sound harsh to our ears if it's in the higher frequencies ... yet oftentimes pleasing if it's in the midrange and lower frequencies (?)

What is it, about the distortion, that causes the sensation of "pain" or fatigue to our ears ... and why is it so pronounced at higher versus lower frequences? I'd be interested in the theories.

Psychoacoustics, I would guess. Low order harmonics sound pleasing because they add to the timbre of the instrument in a more natural way, basically making it sound richer. Nonharmonic distortion is going to make a low frequency sound muddy, but a high frequency sound more like glass breaking. Perhaps muddy lows are associated with something neutral like conversation, but obviously a sound like glass-breaking is going to cause a stress response.

It would be simple to test one mic against another with a loud high frequency sine wave, and see what the distortions look like. I don't know if it would be conclusive, but it's pretty easy to set up.

 

[noisedude]

It's probably something to do with how many hair cells fire or what part of the basilar membrane (or how much of it) resonates at higher frequencies. And yes, there is a lot of evidence to show that even people with no musical education or specific experience whatsoever will find what Western tonality calls 'harmonic' spectra more pleasing. In fact, a non-musical person can tell you that two notes an octave apart are more similar than two notes that are a second (2 semitones) or a minor third (3 semitones) apart.

Uh-oh, might come across clever ... better get back down to form

Just curious, Alan, if you're still reading...

For everyone's sanity, it might be a good idea to post this question at PMI's forum.

DJL - You are free to speak your mind, the great power is in choosing not to. Kudos!

 

[alanhyatt]

Since this thread has taken a rather interesting and unexpectedly education turn ... I was wondering if any of you has any insight as to why distortion can sound harsh to our ears if it's in the higher frequencies ... yet oftentimes pleasing if it's in the midrange and lower frequencies (?)

What is it, about the distortion, that causes the sensation of "pain" or fatigue to our ears ... and why is it so pronounced at higher versus lower frequences? I'd be interested in the theories.

One of the answers is there are both Odd order, and even order distortions. The even order distortions are quite pleasing to our ears, but the odd order is very harsh sounding to our ears. The harmonic distortions in the odd mode are even worse, but again quite pleasing on the even order.....

 

[alanhyatt]

Just curious, Alan, if you're still reading... You mention the 10-12K bump in the C1's response, so how does the B1 compare? And is there any printed source for comparing the relative sound (as subjective as that can be, I know) of the various SP models? I don't find my B1s to be especially bright but I haven't compared them to the C1 or other SP models. I'd appreciate your take on this issue.

J.

The answer is the B1 does not have that much energy at that frequency. The B Series has the same capsule with one difference...The thickness. The B Series is a 3 micron, while the C Series is a 6 micron. So as I said, make one change in the capsule design and the capsule will sound different. There is of course a different electronic design in the B Series as well, so the end result is there is not that big peak like the C Series and why people say it sounds more neutral....

 

[sdelsolray]

Since all harmonics of frquencies above 10 kHz are inaudible, this means that there is distortion in the lower octave that spills up into the higher ones, right?

If it were just a bump then it's a non problem with decent EQ but non-linearity is another matter. It's sorta hard to see, however, where non-linearity would come from given the simplicity of the moving part in a condenser mic.


Bob

I didn't mean to imply that it was only the "bump" frequencies (10k to 12k) that produced odd order harmonics. I think it happens with many of the lower frequencies, the upper harmonics of which would be audible, and when taken together with the fundamental, sound somewhat distorted.

 

[wilkee]

Some distortion has always been considered benign or at best pleasing i.e. well designed Valve Amps, Neve Pre's etc. and it is one of the main reasons why THD measurements have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I have long argued that the reason why so many people are still in love with Vinyl records is due to the distortion that is present in this medium which is of a musical nature unlike Digital where any distortion tends to be of an aggressive nature.

Tony

 

[noisedude]

My car stereo speakers are totally broken and sound terrible, but at low volumes the mid range distortion and the rolled-off compressed sound with less high and low end is actually quite pleasant to listen to. Dunno if that helps!

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Since this thread has taken a rather interesting and unexpectedly education turn ... I was wondering if any of you has any insight as to why distortion can sound harsh to our ears if it's in the higher frequencies ... yet oftentimes pleasing if it's in the midrange and lower frequencies (?)

What is it, about the distortion, that causes the sensation of "pain" or fatigue to our ears ... and why is it so pronounced at higher versus lower frequences? I'd be interested in the theories.

There's a paper by Russell A. Hamm about different distortions that should be easy to find with Google. But here's my thoughts on it. I'll use an A chord as an example, since that requires the least math to understand it:

An A Major chord consists of 3 notes: A (the root), C# (the third), and E (the fifth).

This A chord will start with A=440Hz, we can build the rest of the chord from there:

A =440.00
C#=554.37
E =659.26

Ok, now imagine that someone is playing the A note and clipping it badly, so you're getting a lot of 3rd and 5th harmonic distortion. Those distortions are electronically creating and are perfect 3 and 5 time multiples of the original A note. That works out to 3x440Hz=1320Hz, and 5x440Hz=2200Hz.

But remember, we live in a "tempered" world, so the 3rd and 5th note of a "real" A chord are tuned to be pleasing to the ear. So what "real notes" happen to be near those two electronic distortion frequencies?

The octave of our "tempered" E note (the 5th of the original chord) is 1318.51Hz, clashing with our electronic distortion 3rd of 1320Hz.

The second octave of our "tempered" C# note (the 3rd of our A chord) is 2217.46Hz, a pretty fair distance from our electronic 2200Hz distortion (the fifth).

In simple terms, these electronic-generated distortion 3rd and 5th harmonic notes conflict with our tempered notes and create the "uglys" that we hear.

Even order harmonics (the second and the fourth) are simply octaves of the original notes, and just contribute to the fatness of the sound - they're in perfect tune with the originals.

Does that help explain it any better?

 

[noisedude]

Is this similar to the fact that we like our octaves to be slightly less than an octave? Hence why lots of people tune the bottom E on a guitar wrong by comparison to an electronic tuner?

 

[Strave]

Except that there isn't a distortion mechanism that will give you 3/2x. What you get is 2x, 3x, etc. The first harmonic generated above 10 kHz would thus be at 20 kHz.

I have tried different waveforms with frequencies above 10 kHz and they all sould exactly like sin waves to me. OTOH, I've long believed that testing via sinusoids does not necessasarily disclose the full range of hearing but that's a whole 'nother argument. I think it would take young, virgin ears to prove or disprove that, though, and mine are neither.


Bob

Yeah... I think i still have some recognition of harmonics around 20 khz or even higher because the timbre changes a bit to me... or maybe it's just psychological?

Anyways, thanks for explaining it... my thought process was getting all screwy.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Is this similar to the fact that we like our octaves to be slightly less than an octave? Hence why lots of people tune the bottom E on a guitar wrong by comparison to an electronic tuner?

That probably has more to do with a guitar's intonation problems than anything else.