Studio Projects C1 vs C4

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revsound said:
The problem is not my guitar , mic pres or set up!!! I use Avalon 737, Mogami cables, and a Ted Thomson accoustic. My test was as follows: Rode NT5's in an XY possition in front of the guitar 10-12 inches at the 14 th fret, sounded beautiful. Then we left all stands as is, in place, and just put the C4's in with the cardiod caps, and it was horrible! Extremely dull !!!
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Quick note: When we do an A/B here - deeply ensconsed in the massive subterranean PMI complex, each mic is placed (sometimes painstakingly) in the best sounding location we can find for that particular model. There are many ways to go about this, but I generally have 7506's on so I can monitor the changes as they occur.
I Highly Recommend that when you are swapping mics in and out that you find the optimal location for each model since each given mic hears and reacts to the world in different ways every time. I have seen mic reviews where the all of the mics are set in the same location with relation to the source and I find their results to be as meaningless as shouting "MOVE THE DAMN MIC!" at a 19" CRT.
revsound - this is not meant to slam you in any way. I appreciate your trying out the C4's.

Brent Casey
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335
 
I agree with you Brent, and thanks for the help ! I did respond to Harvey about the fact that I was using the omni's, and thought it was the cardiod's. When comparing the NT5' (cardiod) to the C4's(cardiod) apples to apples, it was a good comparison. The C4's would easily fit better in a dense because there is a top end boost at about 8k. I should have been more clear about the comparison, but I did like the C4's, and I bought them. I made a mistake and have not used the omni's correctly.
 
Ahhh.. OK so the omni's are the cardiods and the cardiods are the Omni's.. hehe.. Ok I was confused. then I did use the Omnis, and I'm surprised cause the living room is rather big, wooden floors, furniture, TV, ect. At any rate they came out nice.
 
Brent Casey said:
John, those sound like the omni heads. The cardioids have the little holes in the capsule.
I find the sound of the unwound strings on the guitar in the clip very interesting. I have a cd by a Boston guitarist named Fred Fried which has a similar tonality. Incidentally, I found out about the CD through Mr. Fried (cool name, huh?) himself who was buying a pair of the C4's and had some questions. His guitar is a 7-string made by Mark Wescott. What I am hearing seems to be a quality of the guitar and not a technique. I know this sounds vague, but I'm sure that you are aware of which I speak since you were able to craft it into the instrument. It's an emphasis in the high mids.
Also, on your site, you have "Acer Pseudoplatanus" referred commonly to as "Big Leaf Maple". Its common reference I believe is the "Sycamore Maple". "Acer Macrophyllum" is what I have generally seen referred to commonly as the big leaf maple.
I'm really happy to hear the C4's put to such good use. What models of guitar are used in that recording?
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Thanks for the nice words, and the clarification Brent. That guitar was built for the artist with him being a heavy strummer in mind, but I wanted it to also double as a nice fingerpicker as well. It really shines strummed though. VERY loud and huge sounding. So it needed to be able to cut in a full band situation hence the midrange kick, as well as the biting trebles and strong bass.

Correct you are about the maple and I've already gotten it corrected on my site. Thanks for pointing that out. Very Observant of you.

The guitar in question is a East indian rosewood/Adirondack spruce Slope shouldered dreadnaught. The largest guitar I currently make (although I have a few orders for Jumbos just have not made them yet)

So it was the Omni's I used. Makes sense now that harvey explained it. All I know is I took about 30 minutes setting up the mics and finding the sweet spots. I had never placed mics in those positions before but hey whatever works! I'm looking forward to using them again soon.

On a side note when I got the mics from Sweetwater they shockmounts were the old versions where the mics were loose in them and one e-mail to Alan, and they sent out new ones that same day, and I got them today. Thanks for the great service.

Cheers,

John
 
Just wanted to add my compliments on both the guitar and the recording. Very nice!
 
I want to amend my earlier reply.

OK, get one of John Mayes' incredible guitars and a pair of C4s for the guitar.

Wow, that's some nice mojo caught on tape. Very, very impressive stuff. John, when are we going to do lunch? Unfortunately, I'm working in the city now.
 
ozraves said:
I want to amend my earlier reply.

OK, get one of John Mayes' incredible guitars and a pair of C4s for the guitar.

Wow, that's some nice mojo caught on tape. Very, very impressive stuff. John, when are we going to do lunch? Unfortunately, I'm working in the city now.
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Thanks Steve. I'm up for lunch anytime. In fact I have a few guitars that will be shipping out soon if you want to play one. I'm stringing up a Madagascar rosewood/Adirondack spruce slope D tomorrow. Drop me a line sometime.
 
John Mayes said:
Thanks for the nice words, and the clarification Brent. That guitar was built for the artist with him being a heavy strummer in mind, but I wanted it to also double as a nice fingerpicker as well. It really shines strummed though. VERY loud and huge sounding. So it needed to be able to cut in a full band situation hence the midrange kick, as well as the biting trebles and strong bass.

Correct you are about the maple and I've already gotten it corrected on my site. Thanks for pointing that out. Very Observant of you.

The guitar in question is a East indian rosewood/Adirondack spruce Slope shouldered dreadnaught. The largest guitar I currently make (although I have a few orders for Jumbos just have not made them yet)

So it was the Omni's I used. Makes sense now that harvey explained it. All I know is I took about 30 minutes setting up the mics and finding the sweet spots. I had never placed mics in those positions before but hey whatever works! I'm looking forward to using them again soon.

On a side note when I got the mics from Sweetwater they shockmounts were the old versions where the mics were loose in them and one e-mail to Alan, and they sent out new ones that same day, and I got them today. Thanks for the great service.

Cheers,

John
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I was wondering if you were going to come back and say that the guitar was a jumbo. I think I will have to go play some different guitars to see if I can hone in on what I'm hearing. There's a quality in your guitar there that I really dig. It's like nothing that I hear from my D-28 which sounds exactly like a D-28. (Not a bad thing IMO).
As far as the tree ID, the tipoff is "pseudo". So (Acer Pseudoplatanus) literally means "a maple (acer) that looks like a sycamore (platanus)". (Acer Macrophyllum) of course tranlates to "a maple with big leaves".
So I got to thinking about trees and guitars last night and would officially like another hundred years added on to my life so I could do some experiments.
For instance, at tree growing somewhat in the open which is exposed on one side to constant wind. The cellular types and structure will be physiologically quite different - more dense on the windblown side than it is on the unexposed side. The official term for this is "reaction wood" which sounds akin to what may happen when one sees a very pretty girl, but I am wondering if you are able to observe such variances when you look at a veneer cross section and if so, which side of the tree would you choose? Would you make a rough determination by observation and then further by listening (tapping)? The selection process of the woods appears to be split between structural requirements to some degree and the resonant/damping properties. Do the properties of a particular piece of top wood determine the type of bracing used on the inside, or is that determined by the model/style of guitar?
Obviously, I know next to nothing about the crafting of acoustic instruments, but I find it extremely interesting. I will have to google around a bit at some point.

Best,

Brent Casey
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335

p.s. check your p.m.
 
Brent,

You sure know your woods! I can see the Macro part now as that is also used is bigleaf mahogany. (Swietenia Macrophylla). So that makes perfect sense.

As far as wood selection goes it is a very diverse thing. I tend to like more dense woods as they give a more meaty tone. For instance Brazilian rosewood often comes in two "styles" if you will. One is a darker in color and dense in weight and feel, and the other is a lighter color, more washed out looking, and lighter less dense. To me the lighter colored stuff is not as exciting tonally as the darker stuff, so some generalizations can be made by looking at a piece of wood, but you always will want to get some hands on too as any generalizations can be broken at any given time. I can tell a lot about the tone of a piece of wood by tapping it, flexing it, scratching it, and noting the weight on it. so when a customer comes to me and says he/she wants this certain tone then I would choose a wood by species first, then further in that species the correct piece of wood that has the right stiffness, density, and look that the customer is searching for.

Yes the top wood and more importantly the stiffness of the top wood is directly related to the brace placement, size, and number of braces, but that also is affected by the model too. For instance on a small body guitar I would use less braces than on a jumbo regardless of how stiff or floppy the piece of wood in question is. There is just less real estate to cover and it needs to be able to flex and vibrate in the correct manner. If the wood is very stiff I will angle braces a little different than if it is not so stiff. I will also change those things if a certain sound is required.

Here are a few articles from a guy I worked for. I agree with most of what he says but I do a few things differently than him. Not better just different. Some good reading, and it sounds like you would enjoy them very much. Be sure to read them in order as listed as it will make more sense.

http://bourgeoisguitars.com/tapping_tonewoods.htm

http://bourgeoisguitars.com/voicing.htm

http://bourgeoisguitars.com/still_voicing.htm
 
Wow, thanks for concise answers to somewhat rambling questions. Being able to do that probably helps a lot when you are dealing with customers: "I want my guitar to sound somewhat squooshy, yet effervescent..."
I'll check out the articles after which I may have more questions.

Best,

Brent Casey
PMI Audio Group
877-563-6335
 
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