OneRoomStudios
New member
Does anyone know anything about the SP828? Anyone used one? How does it compare to the M-Audio Octane or a Sytek or any other multi-chanel pre's in it's price range ($599 on zzounds.com)? I'm definitely curious.
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DJL
Self Banned
I haven't used it, but it should sound pretty good seeing how it has the Burr Browns... and some other cool features. If you get one, please let everyone know what you think. It looks like it's powered with a wal-wart.OneRoomStudios said:
EDIT: PS... there is a little more info about the Studio Projects SP828 on the "Studio Projects/PMI" web page than there is on the "zzounds" web page... here's a quick link... http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/sp828.html
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paranoid
New member
sp828
I am very interested to see how this unit sounds. 8 channels of Burr-brown, discrete pres for $700....sounds way too good to be true! In fact I'll place a bet right now that either they raise the price before putting it on the street, or there turns out to be something horribly wrong with it.......But I really hope I am wrong, cuz the feature set (and physical look) are f'n killer!
I am very interested to see how this unit sounds. 8 channels of Burr-brown, discrete pres for $700....sounds way too good to be true! In fact I'll place a bet right now that either they raise the price before putting it on the street, or there turns out to be something horribly wrong with it.......But I really hope I am wrong, cuz the feature set (and physical look) are f'n killer!
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chessrock
Banned
paranoid said:
What's that . . . about $100 / channel or so? That's about the same as the Octane or the DMP-3, which also (both) have the burr-browns (everything's got them nowadays -- NOT the same kind as the Sytek, by the way, so don't confuse them).
Also, just to clarify things a bit . . . if something is based around an instrument amp (Burr Brown or Linear Technologies, etc.), it pretty much means it's not discrete, for the most part.
Now I've never tried either . . . but I'd bet there isn't a whole heck of a lot of difference between the two (the SP and the Octane).
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DJL
Self Banned
What's the difference?chessrock said:
Which one cost the least, the SP or Octane?chessrock said:
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Sklathill
Soundcard Junkie
Looks like both units are streeting at the same price everywhere... 600 dollars. (the SP has a slightly higher retail price...800 vs. 750.)
The SP has a stereo summing bus on the unit...which I guess has its uses. Not for me, though, since I'm just using my computer interface with plenty of ins. The Octane has an ADAT out and MS. I definitely use ADAT where I'm at...
There's also a difference in the gain. The SP says its gain is from 10 to 65. The M-audio tops at 50, and I saw at least one post on the Octane from a user mentioning that the gain was not as much as on his DMP3, much to his chagrin.
I guess me, I'm just sticking with my Behringer for my ADAT pre while I wait for more comments to filter in on the SP unit.
The SP has a stereo summing bus on the unit...which I guess has its uses. Not for me, though, since I'm just using my computer interface with plenty of ins. The Octane has an ADAT out and MS. I definitely use ADAT where I'm at...
There's also a difference in the gain. The SP says its gain is from 10 to 65. The M-audio tops at 50, and I saw at least one post on the Octane from a user mentioning that the gain was not as much as on his DMP3, much to his chagrin.
I guess me, I'm just sticking with my Behringer for my ADAT pre while I wait for more comments to filter in on the SP unit.
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OneArmedScissor
New member
They both cost $600 everywhere I have looked. I have heard the Octane preamps are based on the DMP3. When I first saw the SP 828, I thought it might be based on the VTB-1, but it's not tube (although they are SS starved plate), so it would seem to be something else. You could always ask Alan about it hehe. 
Btw, the Sytek surely puts the smack down on both of them. It costs more than those 8 channel units for 4 channels, and I've never seen anyone compare them as similar before.
Btw, the Sytek surely puts the smack down on both of them. It costs more than those 8 channel units for 4 channels, and I've never seen anyone compare them as similar before.
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chessrock
Banned
DJL said:
While not technically "discrete" technically-speaking, it's my understanding that the Syteks use sort of a hybrid approach . . . using a variation of the Burr-Brown JFETs simply for boosting gain, I believe. People seem to like them because they actually distort mildly when driven without sounding all nasty.
The other two units mentioned each use Burr Brown instrument amplifiers / opamps. Very different, obviously, from the JFETs. They're obviously very simple, minimalistic designs based entirely around the instrument amp (which you don't exactly want to "drive" unless you want to hear some nasty stuff
)The SP, by the way, uses the INA-217, which, from my understanding, specs out pretty well . . . but is not the same as the INA-163 used in the M-audio mic pres (like the dmp3) or the Grace Design, etc.
Lots of cloudy information being passed around. When someone tells you their mic pre "has burr-browns" in it, it's a lot like a musician telling you they "have Fenders."
Well . . . Fender what? Guitars? Amps? Mexican? American? Champ? Deville? It's a pretty useless statement without more info.
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OneArmedScissor
New member
Gidge said:
I thought so too. Atleast, that's how it was a few months ago, but I checked some places and they were both $600. Where'd you find the Octane for $500? I think some people here would like to know that.
alanhyatt
PMI Audio Group
chessrock said:
The only real difference in the chips is the amount of pins used and the way they mount to a pcb. That being surface mount, or though hole. What minimal amount of difference in the printed spec sheet there might be, you will not hear any audible difference between the chips that either Grace, or our SP828 uses.
We have tested both versions, but we prefer through hole as it is much easier to replace, modify, and service in the field, or by the end user. Ever have to replace surface mount chip? It is a pain in the ass if a new version or new chip comes out that you want to use. All of our chips are socketed as well, so all you have to do is drop them in for replacement. The Grace and dmp3 will have to go back to have any chip replaced.
So, to correct your statement, they are really the same, but we feel our way is better.
Warhead
Jai guru deva om
For what it's worth, Safe Sound uses the new INA217 chip and here is his explanation on the site:
"The microphone input features the latest Burr-Brown INA217 chip giving a strong combination of low noise and low distortion. We did also consider the Analogue Devices SSM2019 which has a marginally better EIN at maximum gain but the INA217 has a superior distortion performance in the middle gain ranges which is important for critical amplification of high quality condenser microphones. The SSM2019 remains an excellent second source device."
I ain't no chip expert...but the man knows his stuff. Somebody's making decisions by ear at some point as well, and not just specs. I'm sure Alan's done the same.
War
"The microphone input features the latest Burr-Brown INA217 chip giving a strong combination of low noise and low distortion. We did also consider the Analogue Devices SSM2019 which has a marginally better EIN at maximum gain but the INA217 has a superior distortion performance in the middle gain ranges which is important for critical amplification of high quality condenser microphones. The SSM2019 remains an excellent second source device."
I ain't no chip expert...but the man knows his stuff. Somebody's making decisions by ear at some point as well, and not just specs. I'm sure Alan's done the same.
War
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chessrock
Banned
I would tend to agree, as I don't necessarily hear a heck of a lot of difference between two different Instrument amps.
I do know some real techie geeks, though, who claim to hear a difference in the high end; apparently the INA 217's have subtle differences in the way they reproduce it.
Whether those are real perceptions or figments of vivid imaginations . . . I can only guess. I have noticed a general trend, however, that I tend to like mic pres built around either the INA-163 or the older Linear Technologies 2015 (older Symetrix). This, I'll fully admit could also be a figment of my own imagination.
I do know some real techie geeks, though, who claim to hear a difference in the high end; apparently the INA 217's have subtle differences in the way they reproduce it.
Whether those are real perceptions or figments of vivid imaginations . . . I can only guess. I have noticed a general trend, however, that I tend to like mic pres built around either the INA-163 or the older Linear Technologies 2015 (older Symetrix). This, I'll fully admit could also be a figment of my own imagination.
OneRoomStudios
New member
So Alan - would you describe the sound as mildly warm (as i hear burr-brown's tend to be) or are they pretty transparent? Don't worry about qualifying the sound as "good" or "bad," since we wouldn't want people to think you're spamming again 
I just want to get an idea of what kind of sound they have. Thanks,
-Peter
I just want to get an idea of what kind of sound they have. Thanks,-Peter
Gidge
Lapdance Test Dummy
OneRoomStudios said:Don't worry about qualifying the sound as "good" or "bad," since we wouldn't want people to think you're spamming again
too late......
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chessrock
Banned
Not Alan, but . . .
There's nothing particularly warm about an integrated circuit. At least not that I'm aware of.
Some people tend to think of the JFETs as having a warmer quality, but those are totally different from what the Studio Projects or the M-audio uses. "Transparent" would be a more fitting and accurate description. Good or bad would be a subjective opinion.
Again, I'm really surprized at the amount of misinformation that seems to be going around about burr-browns. Texas Instruments makes a lot of different products, and they're not all necessarily related.
There's nothing particularly warm about an integrated circuit.
At least not that I'm aware of.Some people tend to think of the JFETs as having a warmer quality, but those are totally different from what the Studio Projects or the M-audio uses. "Transparent" would be a more fitting and accurate description. Good or bad would be a subjective opinion.
Again, I'm really surprized at the amount of misinformation that seems to be going around about burr-browns. Texas Instruments makes a lot of different products, and they're not all necessarily related.
Warhead
Jai guru deva om
Sytek was using a particular BB chip for a long while which they attributed a "warmer" sound to. There certainly was a difference between those two channels and the 2 stock. But, BB discontinued that chip and Sytek has used another BB with no real effect. Now I understand Sytek is charging extra for the new BB's in two channels...which has no real noticeable difference in sound.
War
War
OneRoomStudios
New member
Warhead said:
That's were I got my info. A quote from the Sytek website:
"The Burr-Brown op amp is a high-quality amplifier that results in a warmer, tube-like response in contrast to the clean, ultra-fast response of our standard amp."
http://www.sytek-audio-systems.com/products/preamps/mpx4/
I now realize that they were talking about their Burr-Brown, and not about Burr-Brown's in general, still if one sounds warm there's always the possibility of another sounding similar. Either way it's be nice to hear how Alan would describe it, at least until I can give one a listen at the AES convention.
alanhyatt
PMI Audio Group
Well, this is a deep subject...
The SP828 is airy, so if you wish to determine that as warm, then fine. It is not tube like so no 2nd order is dominant, but it is also clean and crisp. You can hear all of the Burr Browns we use at the show, as the SP828 will be on all the mic racks, and the Toft and Joemeek units are live with program and microphones...even the VTB-1.
You can't really distinguish between the Burr Browns, and I am sure Sytek has not made any custom Burr Brown, but I am happy to be corrected on that...You get what you get from Texas Instruments and what they offer is the Burr Brown chip in many sizes, pin numbers, and mounting choices, but in the end they are all Burr Brown. Sytek seems to offer a different front end of their own, and Burr Brown on channels three and four, so it seems their front end on channel one and two is a different Op Amp. They say it is a Transformerless Hybrid Design...well Hybrid is a chip.
Burr Browns are Op Amps, and all very good ones. Each model is very much the same with the exception of what I described earlier. Everyone will hear it differently, and every manufacturer uses different output designs that makes it sound the way it does.
I can only describe what I hear, which may be different from what you hear, but as long as you are coming to the show, stop by and check them out. I am off in the morning to Hong Kong, so I am off the boards for a few days guys.
Hope you all have fun, and be nice.
The SP828 is airy, so if you wish to determine that as warm, then fine. It is not tube like so no 2nd order is dominant, but it is also clean and crisp. You can hear all of the Burr Browns we use at the show, as the SP828 will be on all the mic racks, and the Toft and Joemeek units are live with program and microphones...even the VTB-1.
You can't really distinguish between the Burr Browns, and I am sure Sytek has not made any custom Burr Brown, but I am happy to be corrected on that...You get what you get from Texas Instruments and what they offer is the Burr Brown chip in many sizes, pin numbers, and mounting choices, but in the end they are all Burr Brown. Sytek seems to offer a different front end of their own, and Burr Brown on channels three and four, so it seems their front end on channel one and two is a different Op Amp. They say it is a Transformerless Hybrid Design...well Hybrid is a chip.
Burr Browns are Op Amps, and all very good ones. Each model is very much the same with the exception of what I described earlier. Everyone will hear it differently, and every manufacturer uses different output designs that makes it sound the way it does.
I can only describe what I hear, which may be different from what you hear, but as long as you are coming to the show, stop by and check them out. I am off in the morning to Hong Kong, so I am off the boards for a few days guys.
Hope you all have fun, and be nice.