Studio Profect VTB1 vs. Grace Design 101

[Bloodbought]

I am stuck and I dont know why. A credible studio engineer told me to never fudge money on the Mic Pre end. The SP Vtb1, he said, sounds like crap. I have found many reviews here that it is a very good low cost Mic Pre.
Is this true? On a minimal budget is it worst to save on the Mic Pre or can I get away with a cheaper one. I have conflicting stories on the signal chain...Mic - Pre - Soundcard, or Pre - Mic - Soundcard, or Soundcard - Pre-Mic..? Which chain is correct as far as where to put the most money? Thank You.

 

[darrin_h2000]

You can save more to aquire the Grace but if you just want clean you can get an dmp3 for $125. the Tube thing will give you good clean results with the tube off but you will get better mileage out of 2 channels on the Dmp3.

 

[chessrock]

I have conflicting stories on the signal chain...Mic - Pre - Soundcard, or Pre - Mic - Soundcard, or Soundcard - Pre-Mic..? Which chain is correct as far as where to put the most money? Thank You.

I tend to subscribe to the reverse-signal chain theory.

In other words, spend the bulk of your money towards the front of your signal chain, and work your way down. This would actually make the instrument (voice or amplifier) the most important element. Followed by the room accoustics. Then the microphone, followed by the cable (don't laugh), the mic pre, and finally the A/D conversion.

The only exception to this rule would be the monitors, because arguably, they're last in your chain, but probably first or second in importance.

 

[krimson]

You forgot the cable inbetween the pre and the AD converter, it's important too.

 

[Les W]

I tend to subscribe to the reverse-signal chain theory.

In other words, spend the bulk of your money towards the front of your signal chain, and work your way down. This would actually make the instrument (voice or amplifier) the most important element. Followed by the room accoustics. Then the microphone, followed by the cable (don't laugh), the mic pre, and finally the A/D conversion.

The only exception to this rule would be the monitors, because arguably, they're last in your chain, but probably first or second in importance.

i disagree I think the bulk of the money should be spent on the A/D converters back to the mic

you may be saying the same thing but it sounds like you are sayin the A/D is least important...

 

[Les W]

Is this true? On a minimal budget is it worst to save on the Mic Pre or can I get away with a cheaper one. I have conflicting stories on the signal chain...Mic - Pre - Soundcard, or Pre - Mic - Soundcard, or Soundcard - Pre-Mic..? Which chain is correct as far as where to put the most money? Thank You.

Soundcard - Pre - Mic and everything between

even if you have the greatest mic in the world and the greatest preamp and if I have an average mic and pre and a better soundcard, I can get a better sound than you

I even take it a step further and go all the way back to the CPU-RAM sometimes

IMO

 

[Bloodbought]

Shoot, maybe up to $600, but I have been told I can put an underground album out and have great quality, to the average ear, for less than $300..? After that is done just sell and save for a pre above the $1,000 range. The underlining of all the debates I have read seems to say that unless you get above the $1,000 range you wont get much of a difference,..to the average ear. Yea.....Nea...??? Thanks. I put this in the Hip Hip forum but figured I would have a greater response here.

 

[chessrock]

even if you have the greatest mic in the world and the greatest preamp and if I have an average mic and pre and a better soundcard, I can get a better sound than you . . . I even take it a step further and go all the way back to the CPU-RAM sometimes

I'll take you up on that bet.

My RAM will smoke your RAM any day of the week, buddy.

 

[Timmy2000]

I've just bought a B1 and VTB1 pre for home use (call me extravagant ) and so far I've been really impressed at the results I'm getting for the money I spent. True, it doesn't sound anywhere near as nice as a U87 through an Avalon but it cost me a 160 quid and gets perfectly useable results (a lot better than the 58 in to the 1010's pre's like I was using previously!). I've only had it 4 days so bear that in mind when you read this, but even though it isn't the most beautiful mic/pre combination I've heard, it definitely doesn't sound like shit and is great value.

 

[chessparov]

Blood, the more important your album is to you, the more $$ should be allocated to going to a good pro studio to record it IMHO.

Chris

P.S. The VTB-1 is a nice mic pre.

 

[toorglick]

I think in the end it won't matter what you start with because one weak link in the chain will bring everything down, that is, if you can hear it. When you are ready to take your recording rig a step forward from "beginner" it's probably best to make a good pair of monitors the first upgrade. From there you'll be able to hear what's the weakest link in your chain. Will you need a new mic after that? Or some preamps? Better converters? Once you get good sounding monitors you're going to realize that you'll eventually need to upgrade everything in the chain.

So, with that said, here's the order I would upgrade in:

monitors, preamps, converters, mics.

As for how much you should spend: there is truth to the axiom "you get what you pay for" however that doesn't mean you have to wait and wait and wait to save up for one piece of hear at a time. With a little research, some frugality, and good timing you can assemble an upgraded rig within a budget. Among the items in discussion here, I would tend to agree that your preamps should not be skimped on. As for converters, if you're using an EMU or M-Audio class soundcard you're probably not going to get much of an improvement for more money until you are able to spend twice as much as you did for those cards. But then you're going to want to spend money on a card that can do more than 2-channels of digital in to take full advantage of the converters. It's kind of an unrelenting upward spiral.

 

[chessparov]

Springsteen's "Nebraska" that has sold millions was done on a Tascam 144
Portastudio with the inbuilt mixer pre's.
Keep in mind that Bruce already had a ton of recording experience in a studio at this point. Plus he practiced the material a lot.

Biggest factors are communicating the music, then recording that in an
appropriate sounding room, by someone who can capture it well.

Maybe the "credible studio engineer" can cut you a break.
By getting inexpensive gear, you can prepare better for the main event.

This is the rationale for my last post...

Chris

 

[cominginsecond]

Depending on the type of music, I think you can get better results at home than in a studio. Times I've recorded in a studio have gotten me much weaker results for the simple fact that I had no time to experiment and no time to really nail my performance. Plus, if you're just talking about a local engineer that does radio jingles or something, there's a good chance that you can get a sound as good as that Audio Engineer's. With two years under my belt recording at home, I got results better than I had gotten at any studio availble to me locally. Seriously.

 

[cominginsecond]

As far as the debate about order of component importance in the signal chain, I'd go with this: Instrument, Room, Mic, Mic Pre, Converter, with one caveat. You need to have a halfway decent, recording-grade converter to play in this game at all. The soundcard that came with your PC isn't going to cut it. For example, it is more important that you get at least a prosumer recording soundcard before you start investing in mics or pres, IMO. If you have a decent recording card, converter moves to the least important element in the chain.

 

[ozraves]

I am stuck and I dont know why. A credible studio engineer told me to never fudge money on the Mic Pre end. The SP Vtb1, he said, sounds like crap. I have found many reviews here that it is a very good low cost Mic Pre.

The VTB1 is good compared to its own price segment. Your friend can't afford to fudge but he's not a home rec'er.

Given the two channels of the DMP3 I'd probably give a look at it. If you want to spend more money then you can read all you want about mic preamps at www.mojopie.com

 

[Son of Mixerman]

I am stuck and I dont know why. A credible studio engineer told me to never fudge money on the Mic Pre end. The SP Vtb1, he said, sounds like crap. I have found many reviews here that it is a very good low cost Mic Pre.
Is this true? On a minimal budget is it worst to save on the Mic Pre or can I get away with a cheaper one. I have conflicting stories on the signal chain...Mic - Pre - Soundcard, or Pre - Mic - Soundcard, or Soundcard - Pre-Mic..? Which chain is correct as far as where to put the most money? Thank You.

The conflict comes from 2 different schools of thought. One school focuses on ultimate recording chain in which there are no compromises and the other is a balanced recording chain where you buy what you can afford in each of the links in the chain. Im not aware of a unit that is so variable is works for everyting. My suggestion is to research what works good for what your trying to record. Drums, guitar, vocals or bagpipes are all different enough that even if you can afford to spend $3800 on a preamp, it may not be right for the application. You need to focus on the inteded target. I have a VTB-1 and it can go from great to suck in the times it takes to patch it to a different source. Grace stuff is pretty clean and uneventful and it may not serve your purpose if your crunching guitars. What do you want, clean or colored? In your specific case converters are equally important to capturing anything. Try balancing your recording chain. I know it takes more thought but Im pretty sure youll be happier in the end.

SoMm

 

[alanhyatt]

Wow, VTB-1 and Grace 101...Not the same two words I would use in a sentence. Two totally different animals.

Now the new Joemeek threeQ, well that uses the same Burr Brown circuit as the Grace 101 as far as the mic amp. Output amps are different, but there is more of a likeness between those than a VTB-1 and a Grace 101.

 

[TexRoadkill]

i disagree I think the bulk of the money should be spent on the A/D converters back to the mic

you may be saying the same thing but it sounds like you are sayin the A/D is least important...

What's the point of great convertors if you feed them a mediocre quality signal?

 

[chessparov]

None of the pre's mentioned in this thread will prevent a performance from being captured IMHO.

It's simply a matter of engineering ability to get any of these to sound
professional. With only a few possible member exceptions, my money would be on George Massenburg (or the like) with a VTB-1 or DMP3 to smoke
most any BBS member given a Martech!

Chris