Strat Neck Setup and "Warp" Help

[elitedesolator]

First time posting here so I may have missed things that I am supposed to do.

So essentially, through sighting down the left side of the guitar body (Attachment 1), I concluded that basically my guitar neck is "warped" in a way that makes it so that the neck is straight, but is not parallel to the body and as such basically "raises" itself as we get closer to the headstock.

Attachment 2 is a simple diagram I drew to illustrate that. The diagram is a huge exaggeration but I hope it illustrates the point perfectly. Note that the neck is not curved out, such as a situation that arises when the truss rod is adjusted incorrectly.

I have tried adjusting the truss rod, but since the truss rod only seems to have an effect on the bigger part of the neck (frets 0-17) and has no effect on the neck joint, it means the neck cannot be straight. So no matter how I adjust the different parts of the guitar (bridge, shims in neck joint and nut etc.), I need an impossibly high action to eliminate fretbuzz, and an acceptable action (acceptable as in the strings are actually parallel to the neck) brings fretbuzz.

So my question, good people, is that is it feasible to fix this problem? If so, how? I know that the easiest solution is probably just to get a replacement neck, but I really do not want to before I have done all that is possible to salvage this current neck.

 

[muttley600]

With the greatest respect the easiest solution is to take it to some one who knows what they are doing. Messing with it in the hope that you may stumble on a solution when you don't know what you are doing is rarely the way to go.

 

[elitedesolator]

You're right, and I was hoping I could find someone with the knowledge here.

 

[ggunn]

You're right, and I was hoping I could find someone with the knowledge here.

It's not that folks here don't know anything, it's that a problem like you are describing is impossible to accurately diagnose without having the guitar in one's hands. Take it to a pro.

 

[stevieb]

... but of course, keep an eye on cost/benefit ratio. I've seen Squiers that had no structural problems like your guitar for sale for under $50, for instance. If your guitar is a Squire, or even a MIM, it might be better to replace the neck from a cheap donor. If, however, yours is a MIA or MIJ Strat, it might be worth the cost of buying a replacement neck- but you will lose the serial number, unless you keep the old neck for documentation. Perhaps having a luthier repair the neck, which would keep the original neck and SN on the guitar, may be the better way to go with a MIA or MIJ guitar.

Something of a pity that Fender does not have a SN exchange program- you send them the neck or headstock from your MIA/MIJ guitar, they send you back a replacement neck with the same decals and SN on it (for a fee, of course- we KNOW it wouldn't be done out of the kindness of their hearts.)

 

[muttley600]

You're right, and I was hoping I could find someone with the knowledge here.

I have the know how, what I don't have is your guitar.

I was cautioning against tinkering with it because from what you describe you are going to make things worse for yourself. To some one with a good deal of experience working on guitars it is not hard to spot a noob that may well cause more harm than they might fix..

 

[crazydoc]

Is the neck actually bent/warped where it meets the guitar at the body, or is it straight and is just set at the wrong angle? Hold a straight edge on the fretboard in this area and see if it's straight.

If it's not, you may need a new neck. If it is, you may be able to shim it as a cheap/temporary fix.

edit: arcaxis -I guess we posted the same thoughts at the same time

 

[Lt. Bob]

if the neck is in fact straight ..... then it's simply not set in the body right and probably just needs to have that adjusted.
You could shim it but that decreases the contact between the neck and body and could affect sustain and tone ....... it's most likely an easy fix for a tech .

Doesn't sound at all to me like you need a new neck.

 

[ermghoti]

Yup. If the neck sights straight, and fretting the first and last fret does not reveal a gap between the string and the fret tops, it's possible all that it needs is a shim. Lots of perfectly good vintage guitars have been found with improvised crap tossed in the neck pockets as shims, the effect on tone is probably over-rated.

Loosen completely, or remove the strings. Unbolt the neck with a CORRECT SIZE screwdriver. Pop the neck out. It might stick a little, be a man, push the face of the headstock, it'll come out. Toss something in the pickup/bridge side of the neck pocket. A pick or two, a folded matchbook cover, an actual strip of wood, fingernail clippings, whatever. Shoot for about the thickness of a quarter to start.

Put the neck back on. Put in all the bolts until flush, and then tighten up the nut side bolts about halfway, the bridge side all the way, then finish tightening the nut side. recheck the bolts by tightening in a crosswise pattern.

Restring, and check the neck angle. Repeat with different shims if need be.

It's a low-tech project, not much can really go wrong.

 

[WhiteStrat]

...fingernail clippings, whatever. Shoot for about the thickness of a quarter to start.

Repeat with different shims if need be.

It's a low-tech project, not much can really go wrong.

Not much can go wrong? I beg to differ. If he goes the fingernail clippings route, and does in fact have to repeat the process much at all, he'll eventually chew his fingers down to bleeding little nubs.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

This is almost certainly a guitar that needs a neck shim.

That said, Mutt's right, take it into someone. Two reasons.

One, I said almost certain for a reason - the neck itself could have another issue, your diagnosis could be wrong, there could be a problem with the neck pocket or even the bolts, any number of things. The most LIKELY solution is that the neck angle just isn't right and a shim needs to be added (or removed, if another owner shimmed it first), but that's not a sure thing (and some of your comments about the truss rod and buzz leave me wondering).

Two, I'm guessing you've never shimmed a neck before, and probably haven't done much setup work on your own in the past. I do almost all my own tech work, and can pretty much eyeball where a neck needs to be these days, but if you've never done it before the process is time-consuming, involves a lot of trial and error, and frankly is kind of scary - I was sure I was going to break something or strip out a hole or something the first time I took the neck off my Strat.

 

[crazydoc]

As ermghoti said, shimming a bolt on neck is easy, and there's not much you can screw up except dinging up some screw heads, or stripping threads if you tighten really hard. The most difficult part is unstringing and restringing the guitar, possibly several times, and this is only difficult because it is tedious.

Also, rereading the original post, it seems he's already tried shimming the neck

So no matter how I adjust the different parts of the guitar (bridge, shims in neck joint and nut etc.)

so it may be he has a bad neck.

 

[muttley600]

The guy needs his guitar set up right. There is no other solution. The are a large number of things that could be and sound like they are already out of wack. Simply shimming the neck will not do it judging by the confused but telling information coming from the OP.

I'm all in favour of people having a go and sorting out problems, thats why I post here, but there are times when you have to accept that "right here, right now" is not it. It sounds to me for a variety of reasons that this guy needs to start a little further down the learning curve before attempting to shim a neck pocket when he is not entirely aware of other factors and alterations that need to be done at the same time.

There is a whole load of little adjustments that need to checked/done and my advice is to get a good tech to do it. He or she should also be prepared to explain what and why they do to it. That would seem to me to be a better way to learn rather than making further errors that could end up costing cash with little learned in the process..

 

[Milnoque]

elitedesolator,

When you look at the joint where the neck screws onto the body is there a gap? You may just have a neck that is not properly tightened down. The heel of the neck should be completely snug to the body.

If you loosen the strings can you move the neck in its pocket? There should be no play at all. By the way, how high are your strings above the fingerboard at the end of the neck?

Do not adjust your truss rod until the problem with the neck angle is addressed.

 

[guido #2]

Sounds like you need a setup. Shims may do the trick. If you need a shim thicker than .010" I'd be surprised.
That said, I'd really hafta see it first ( I do guitar setups as part of my business)
Fender style guitars are pretty strong pieces in general, and can take a lot of abuse.
However-
If you DO try it yourself, be VERY careful with the neck screws in the Chinese, Indonesian and other low-line models. I've had them break even trying to LOOSEN them.
Work slowly!

Can you post a pic?

 

[muttley600]

Sounds like you need a setup. Shims may do the trick. If you need a shim thicker than .010" I'd be surprised.
That said, I'd really hafta see it first ( I do guitar setups as part of my business)
Fender style guitars are pretty strong pieces in general, and can take a lot of abuse.
However-
If you DO try it yourself, be VERY careful with the neck screws in the Chinese, Indonesian and other low-line models. I've had them break even trying to LOOSEN them.
Work slowly!

Can you post a pic?

You need to get some serious heat on those neck bolts if they are too tight to remove with a regular driver. Use a big soldering iron and be prepared to replace them if the plating lifts.

 

[elitedesolator]

I appreciate the comments, but none of them actually help me, and some seemed to miss a lot of information from the first post. If I wasn't clear, I apologize.

If it is assumed that my diagnosis is correct, what should be done to the guitar?

The assumption is that the neck is basically "divided" into 2 parts. Frets 1 to 17 part is straight, and frets 17 to 22 is also straight, but they form an angle. Refer to the second diagram of my post.

I got this information by using the body as a "straight" line and then comparing that "line" to the neck itself. Normally these two "lines" will be parallel, but in this case it isn't.

By logic and by action the shim doesn't work. Shims only work for completely straight necks, since the shim changes the angle between the body and the neck, which would be fine for my case except my neck isn't straight to begin with. I shoved in a shim of appropriate thickness with the result being the fret 1 to 17 part being parallel to the body, while part 17 to 22 being elevated.

So instead of fret buzz near the center of the neck or high action, I have fret buzz everywhere since frets 20-22 are always touching the strings.

Adjusting the truss rod only adjusts the "curvature" of the part 1 to 17.

Once again, pretend that my assumption is 100% correct, and please tell me what to do.

 

[muttley600]

I appreciate the comments, but none of them actually help me, and some seemed to miss a lot of information from the first post. If I wasn't clear, I apologize.

The main problem here is that the information you have given is unclear. You have used the wrong terms and often indicate solutions that are just plain wrong. You also don't mention some important details. What guitar is i? I would assume a strat style guitar because that is what you posted a picture of. What and how have you measured on it? What are the resulting measurements.

You also mention attempting solutions to the problem that are inappropriate such as adjusting the truss rod. I will deal with each of your statement and then advise you again to take it to a decent luthier/tech.

If it is assumed that my diagnosis is correct, what should be done to the guitar?
.

If you have a "kick" in the neck at fret seventeenth fret or close as you describe then have either wrongly adjusted the truss rod or the fingerboard needs to be skimmed and refretted at least at the body end. You can only measure this by correctly adjusting the truss rod and then sighting a straight edge down the neck from first fret to last. You will also need to selectively sight down the neck in the same way to check that the truss rod is correctly adjusted and you have the right amount of neck relief between frets two and seventeen. Only then can you start to make an assessment of the extent of the problem. We would need to know these measurements as a minimum.

Now onto the specifics.

The assumption is that the neck is basically "divided" into 2 parts. Frets 1 to 17 part is straight, and frets 17 to 22 is also straight, but they form an angle. Refer to the second diagram of my post.

I got this information by using the body as a "straight" line and then comparing that "line" to the neck itself. Normally these two "lines" will be parallel, but in this case it isn't.

See the above comments. I seriously doubt you have what you describe if the neck is adjusted properly. If it is as you say then you need to have the fingerboard skimmed at the body end. Assuming the guitar is a fender style then which end is the truss rod adjustment at? Are the bolts locked down tight at the body join? Is the neck pocket joint in contact at all points particularly at the base?

Even Fender style guitars often need a little neck angle or "pitch" on occasion to get the right action. This also means you need to do a good job of setting the bridge height and pickup height as a result. You will also need to adjust the intonation while you are at it and possibly the nut. All this having got the neck geometry right to start with. In other words a full setup. Can you do one?

How big is the gap between the fingerboard and a straight edge laid along the full length of the f/b? What relief is there from fret two to seventeen?

By logic and by action the shim doesn't work. Shims only work for completely straight necks, since the shim changes the angle between the body and the neck, which would be fine for my case except my neck isn't straight to begin with. I shoved in a shim of appropriate thickness with the result being the fret 1 to 17 part being parallel to the body, while part 17 to 22 being elevated.

A shim is never really a correct solution. Sure people use them but the best way is to fit the neck pocket correctly. You either do this by removing timber from the pocket or the base of the neck or by adding timber to the pocket and re-cutting it.

If you do have a "kick" in the neck then a shim is not going to help you.

So instead of fret buzz near the center of the neck or high action, I have fret buzz everywhere since frets 20-22 are always touching the strings.

This is called "choking" and the fix depends on the exact nature and degree of the problem. The first thing to do is to set the truss rod correctly and measure as I advise above.

Adjusting the truss rod only adjusts the "curvature" of the part 1 to 17.

Not always, It depends on the type of truss rod and the guitar. Fender have several styles. There are other styles beyond that. In any case the sole purpose of a truss rod is to counteract the pull of the strings not to adjust a warped or badly set up guitar action. The neck needs to be straight and then relief is added according to the string tension, string gauge and action required by the player. As with the shim, if the problem is as you say it is, no amount of playing with the truss rod is going to help you.

Once again, pretend that my assumption is 100% correct, and please tell me what to do

Once again if the situation is exactly as you describe, you need to take it to a decent luthier/tech.

Maybe a better question for you would be to tell us where you are and some one might be able to recommend some one. A warped neck that is as you describe is not an easy or simple fix and needs quite a bit of hands on experience and good diagnosis skills.

A new neck can also be troublesome if you have no experience of ordering and fitting one because they are rarely straight swaps often needing adjustments to get it seated properly and even after that you are going to need to do a full set up.

Having said all this I'm fairly confident that the neck is not like you say it is because such problems are very rare. If it is then swallow hard and get some first person advice.

 

[elitedesolator]

Thank you. I'll read your post point by point, and I'll answer all of the points as I go along. And you're right, I may be making completely wrong observations.

Either way, I'll definitely reply once I have the time.

 

[ermghoti]

Re: Muttley's last post.

I was rethinking my answer, and re-reading the OP, and you're spot-on. I was posting from work, and hastily made a couple of unsupported assumption. OTOH/IMO, It's a bolt-on, worst thing that could happen is he screws it up, and takes it to a tech who tells him to replace it. Most likely: he manages to hash out the problem himself, and accumulates some experience in the process.