STILL trying to figure this out! (ie: Space Echo in the FX loop of a 388)

gentlejohn

gentlejohn

New member
Okay, so I got hold of this Space Echo [an RE-201]. As with practically everything vintage I acquire these days, it was in need of a service so I left it in with a tech.

Here's the thing .... it's sounding great as a pre-console, in-line effect unit (eg: using it as you would any regular, standalone guitar pedal) HOWEVER this is not the main reason I bought it - I bought it to use in the Effects Loop of my Tascam 388 as a 'Mixing Stage' global effects unit. Something I could send signals from numerous pre-taped tracks to. Don't get me wrong, there's sure to be ocassions where I'll disconnect it from the Effects Loop and use it in-line on individual sources recording 'with effect' (like electric guitar for example) but this was not my main intention nor reason for investing in this.

The problem I'm having is that, post tech service, I now KNOW that the Space Echo is functioning as it should, in fact, it sounds REALLY good when used in-line! The problems occur when I try hooking it up to my 388 to use in a global effects loop capacity and I just can't work out what I'm doing wrong this end! When trying to use it in this way, the sounds I'm really liking when using it in-line 'effectively' turn to mush - I seem to be losing A LOT of the clarity!

I wonder if anybody can sort me out here as this is really dragging on for me & massively interrupting my workflow. Any thoughts/help/advice would be VERY much appreciated!

Here's how I currently have my Effects Loop hooked up:

Tascam 388 'EFFECTS OUT' 1/4" jack > Space Echo 'FROM THE PA' 1/4" jack input
Space Echo 'OUTPUT' 1/4" jack > Tascam 388 'EFFECT RETURN 1' 1/4" input jack

Here's how I currently have the Tascam 388 console controls set:

'EFFECTS MASTER' (send) dial: 3 o'clock
'EFFECTS RETURN 1' pot: 3 o'clock
'EFFECTS RETURN PAN' pot: 12 o'clock
Individual 'EFFECT SEND' pots for each channel: anywhere between 9 o'clock and 2 o'clock depending on the amount of effect required for individual pre-recorded dry sources.

Here's how I currently have the Space Echo dials set:

ECHO VOLUME knob: 5 o'clock (FULL up)
REVERB LEVEL: 9 or 10 o'clock
INTENSITY + REPEAT controls: around 12 o'clock for now
THAT BIG DIAL IN THE MIDDLE! (Delay Effect Presets): whatever feels right for the beat
OUPUT GAIN switch [H/M/L]: I've been switching between 'H' & 'M' trying to find what works

The annoying thing is, I've now spent HOURS tinkering with this set up - trying to get the two units to 'speak to one another properly' as it were and just do what I want them to do. Unless I'm very much mistaken, I'm pretty sure I have things all hooked up correctly yet my problem(s) persist!

In a nutshell, this Space Echo unit sounds absolutely STELLAR when used in front of my 388 console BUT when I try hooking it up to the console & using it as a global effect it sounds significantly different (but not in a good way!) Everything I send to it in this configuration just sounds like sonic mush and, to date, I end up I just reverting to my original taped DRY recordings as they sound considerably better than they do 'wet' with this Space Echo unit in situ (which completely defeats the object for me!)

I record in a fairly flat frequency neutral sound space and completely 'dry' recordings, although fine for some stuff, isn't where I want to be at ALL the time if you know what I mean! I got the Space Echo because I was really impressed by a number of videos on-line featuring the Tascam 388 in tandem with a Space Echo used as a global effects unit but mine just doesn't appear to be performing properly in this scenario (or maybe it's just ME!!!)

PS: Real sorry for the length of this post here by the way! With the settings given etc. I felt I needed to be as factual as possible because (as you can probably tell!) I'm desperately trying to get to the bottom of this! It really can't be THIS difficult surely??? I mean, it's just a MONO unit with one input & one output! After literally hours of experimentation with little success I just can't think for the life of me what I'm doing wrong here?!! I reckon I might need to get hold of another type of global effect unit in order to try a control test. Although I've had my 388 serviced fairly recently too perhaps the tech overlooked the Effects Loop section and there's an issue with it. I just don't know!
 
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I am not an analog guy, but I will throw in my two cents.

Could it be, as a single effect, the presets work well as you are dealing with one instrument verses on the master, you have everything coming in and now it is too wet? When summing the sound, the dynamics have to change and therefore the effects results will sound different. Maybe what sounds good wet on one instrument doesn't sound as good with all. Or maybe need to be tailored with less tail, depth, etc.

Probably the obvious, but just a thought.
 
Thanks very much for the manual link Miroslav!
DM60: You have made some very valid points there - thanks for bringing them to my attention! Perhaps 'less is more' as it were?
 
Just had a bit of a "EUREKA!" moment this end. It appears I'd been feeding too hot a signal from my desk to the Space Echo causing the unit to completely overload (but not in a good way!) So ... just a storm in a teacup it seems - all I needed to do was just turn my Input levels from the desk down!

Now I have a handle on this it's all sounding rather 'yummy' I have to say. Right, off to make some test recordings! Thanks to everyone on here who's chipped in and helped me to 'see the light' on this one. You really are a helpful bunch you know. "TAP!" Did you feel that?? That was me giving y'all an appreciative pat on the back. Thanks again folks!:guitar::thumbs up::guitar:
 
gentlejohn said:
Just had a bit of a "EUREKA!" moment this end. It appears I'd been feeding too hot a signal from my desk to the Space Echo causing the unit to completely overload (but not in a good way!) So ... just a storm in a teacup it seems - all I needed to do was just turn my Input levels from the desk down!

Now I have a handle on this it's all sounding rather 'yummy' I have to say. Right, off to make some test recordings! Thanks to everyone on here who's chipped in and helped me to 'see the light' on this one. You really are a helpful bunch you know. "TAP!" Did you feel that?? That was me giving y'all an appreciative pat on the back. Thanks again folks!:guitar::thumbs up::guitar:
Click to expand...

That's cool man. Glad it all worked out.
 
gentlejohn said:
It appears I'd been feeding too hot a signal from my desk....
Click to expand...

Yeah...I figured it was a level I/O issue. My Multivox has instrument level and "P.A." level I/O options...with a 3-level toggle for the sensitivity.

So the match between the unit and the source/destination has to be somewhat compatible, otherwise, as you experienced, you don't get what you expected. :D
That's why I asked if you had the manual....since the different I/O setups are clearly outlined for you, and how to use the unit.

The EMT 240 plate I recently acquired gave me some similar issues.
When connecting to my DAW converters, it was easy to get the right I/O levels, since the converters will do +4 or -10.
When I tried connecting the 240 to my console Aux send and FX return they're -10....so I have to use an Aphex 10/4 level/impedance matching box, plus I had to crank its output all the way up another +6dB (I may just open to unit and switch it internally from +4dBm to +8dBm) to properly drive the 240.

So yeah....getting those I/O levels and impedance matched up can make a significant difference for some gear....and yet there's other gear that seems not to care too much what it's connected to. :)
 
Phew! Even the most obvious stuff can seen unnecessarily complicated at times eh? All I need to do now is work out how to kill these delay/reverb trails when I try to mute parts of a track during mixdown! As it currently stands, when I press the little square spring-loaded buttons above each channel fader to try & mute the sound, I'm still hearing the effect when ideally I need it to be silent in these intervals. I suppose I could just record silence in these gaps (tricky if I get it wrong, miss my cue & record over say the first note of a bar I wanted to keep or, alternatively, as a workaround I could go to the top of the desk and take the channel's 3-way switch out of 'REMIX' mode but that's a bit of a faff having to keep going all the way up there when concentrating on a mix at the south of the console! Does anybody know how to keep it all in the same ball park using the mute switches when mixing on a 388? (SORRY, I HAVEN'T ARTICULATED THIS PARTICULAR POST TOO WELL BUT I HOPE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M TRYING TO PUT ACROSS HERE!)
 
Those green buttons above the faders work on the aux only. So if you have an effect going through the aux, it should be quiet when muted once that green button is depressed.
I think the only way to mute the eff returns would be to turn the eff knob down. It does interfere with your flow when mixing. It keeps you thinking and on your toes. But that's the fun part....
 
This is why in the old days, they would often have lots of people's hands on the board during mix time! There's a story about the Beach Boys mixing the song 'Cool Cool Water', with the group all helping engineer Steve Desper ... quote from Al Jardine:

"We were forced to go into creative hyperspeed because Brian was retreating in the opposite direction as fast as we were in the other direction. Carl and I had to piece together 'Cool, Cool Water'. That song was a 48-hour mixdown. I saw two sunrises on that. Bruce and I were just delirious and desperate. We were all just walking around like zombies. So weird. How could anything take so long?"
 
Thanks Harv! OK, let me try to get this straight .... So, I'm 'working' a mix. I have a Reverb unit patched into the 388 AUX Send jack as an Effect Loop coming back in on EFF RETURN 2. I have this Space Echo patched into the 388 EFFECTS OUT jack and being returned via EFF RETURN 1. All 8 tracks on the 388 are recorded to (eg: Vox; B.Vox; Acoustic; Bass Gtr; Drums; etc) and varying degrees of each track are being sent (via each channels individual green Aux & blue Effect Send dials) to both the global Effect Loops (namely Reverb & Delay). With me so far?

OK ... so I'm coming out of my big, anthemic song intro (where EVERYTHING is 'in the mix' and each track is effected in some way or other) but then, when I come to the first verse, I want to do a fairly dramatic drop out leaving just the Lead Vox & Acoustic (I think!). I realise I could: a) Permanently wipe the other tracks that aren't featured in this section or b) Re-record the song with the correct arrangement but I'm still experimenting at this stage and I'm really just getting a 'feel' for the song and trying to find the definitive arrangement. To wipe stuff at this stage would be too 'final' as there's no going back (well, I could always start again I suppose but that'd be a retrograde step!)

Like I say, before I got this Effects Loop up'n'running, I was mixing purely 'dry' and muting utilising those square buttons directly above the channel faders. This worked great as everything was to hand mix-wise (but everything was dry). Now I have the Effects Loops sorted & in place I have this new problem. I can't do mutes with said square buttons - a dry signal gets completely muted but, with effects, delay & reverb trails remain (probably cool for some stuff but not how I want things to work all the time!)

My current 'workaround' for this is not ideal and I'm just wondering if there's any way I can keep using the square buttons for muting (fully!) as I had been doing prior to having an Effects Loops in place? What I'm having to do now with effects on-board is to go up to the top of the console to the 3-way 'Mic/Line/Remix' and 'kill' my tracks as it were there. This is a pain in the arse to be honest (especially when, right at the start of the first verse I have to very quickly physically shut off 6 out of 8 channels = TRICKY!) Is there a way of getting back to muting (the way I've become accustomed to!) with these square buttons & these Effects Loops in place? It's much, much easier that way!

(AGAIN, I HOPE THIS POST HAS MADE SOME KIND OF SENSE! IT SEEMED HARDER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TO EXPLAIN & I'M A STILL UNSURE AS TO WHETHER I'VE ACTUALLY GOT MY POINT ACROSS CORRECTLY!)
 
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Okay.
So like I said earlier, push all those green buttons above your eff\aux knobs. That will silence whatever is in the aux loop once muted. Now for the eff. You could, with quick hands, mute the tracks you want and very quickly turn down the master eff knob. This will silence the reverb once tracks are muted. And you can keep all your effects-aux knobs as is. This is the fun part working with these machines. You'll be a master mixer with lots of practice. Check out the youtube vids by ranikade( I think that's their name) they do a lot of 388 stuff. And the guy is working all the knobs like crazy to mute certain effects. With practice it will feel natural.
 
Not sure how the 388 is set up...but on consoles, if you have the Auxes set to Post Fader and you then mute the main faders, that will also mute the send to the Aux for each muted channel. That's how my M-3500 console works.

So...for your "dramatic" mix where everything else drops out and you just hear a couple of tracks....mute the others.

Mind you....the better way is to do pre-production planning, and create the correct arrangement from the start....then your mixing is less complicated. :)
 
I just realized my idea of turning down the master effect knob probably wouldn't be the best idea, as it would turn down the effect of non muted tracks.
I'm not sure what to do. With my 388, I haven't gotten around to muting multiple tracks at once. It's usually 2-3. That makes it easy for me to just crank down the eff knobs for those tracks. But like I said earlier, it keeps you onb your toes because you have to remember to turn them back up when bringing the tracks back in.
 
All extremely valid points folks. Thanks JH & MS! OK, time to get practising! I'm looking forward to the challenges ahead. PS: Absolutely love that informative Beach Boys quote Mr L.W.F. CHEERS!
 
in the old days, they often mixed in sections, then spliced the final master together, If you're doing dramatic stuff like that with only two hands, that may be the best way.
 
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