stereo phase?

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atommusic

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Okay, I've done my recording (8 vocalists, 7 instrumentalists) and that went okay. I've done my mixing, sounded good the first time, sounds great now that I've got the bass back to a respectable level. I've normalised the whole disc. But there's something missing.

Now, this entire projet has not left the PC for any reason other than to test the mix in different players. No processing has taken place outside of Cakewalk and Cooledit. I had a friend listen to it, and he immediatley said "you need to run it through a stereo phase shifter". In other words, I needed to make the left come out 1 millisecond later than the right (or vice versa).

Is there a plugin or software that will do that, or am I gonna have to get a rack unit to do this with?

BTW, I've learned alot just by reading all the posts. Thanks for all the help!
 
Before we can tell you how to fix a problem, you need to tell us exactly what you think the problems are... more details as to "...there's something missing..." please!

Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
 
Sorry, bvaleria. I thought my question was pretty clear: Stereo Phase - how do I get it? My freind is pretty knowledgeable about what it might need or not need (the guys been spinning music since the CD first appeared), but not how to go about getting it done. I need to fix (change?) the stereo phase of my final mixes. How do I do that? Is there a plug-in that will move one channel the 1 millisecond that I need? If not, is there a rack unit that will do this? Or do I just run it through a delay on one channel?

I don't mean to sound hysterical with all the questions. I'm not marketing these discs to the most critical ears around. But I do want a good(great) sound for those who are gonna buy my disc.

Thanks again, gang
 
Don't get all hyped about it.

With all due respect to your friend, A wider stereo image is not always a better sound.
Playing around with the phase of your mix can sound very bad on other systems then the one you are listening to. Even worse.... on a mono system parts of your mix might vanish.
It is better to use such an efect for 1-2 specific tracks that you want to call attention to.
This effect can be done by hardware or plugins but it is important to know that the better the algorithym on the effect unit the better results you have.
 
I meant, how do you know stereo phase is your problem?? You didn't describe the symptoms of what you're hearing. Phase is not necessarily the same as stereo image - although indistinct stereo image is another symptom of phase issues. Other symptoms include flanging between tracks, or "sucked-out" mids on certain instruments or vocals.

And if you really do have a phase issue, it's not going to be able to be fixed on a 2-track mix - you will have to work on the original tracks. Provide more details as to your situation and I can help you further.

Bruce
 
Atommusic,
If I understand you correctly your friend suggested you to run in through
a Stereo enhancer and as of now you dont have a phase problem correct ?

These types of plugins that put the image out of phase (and in simple terms Apply a sopisticated EQ) will widen the image and sound as if the sound is more open by inserting out-of-phase components of some parts of the signal back into the main mix therfore Clearing your mix.


Correct me if I'm wrong Atommusic.






[Edited by Shailat on 11-12-2000 at 23:08]
 
Shailat...
Ah-ha! Now I understand what atommusic seems to be asking... ;)

Atommusic...
If what Shailat pointed out is the nature of your problem, I would agree with him in recommending against using such processing unless you have a real need to (ie fixing a problem). You risk having your mixes not translate very well to other systems. For example, let's say you use this processor to enhance the image -- then a customer buys your tape/cd and plays it on their mondo-humungous boom-box with its own "stereo image enhancer" -- your music will sound like crap as it get run thru that similar kind of processor a second time.

If there's a real problem to fix and the enhancement works for you, then use it... just be careful and don't overdo it -- less is more.

Bruce
 
Wonderful advice, folks! I hadn't planned on running it through a stereo enhancer - I've done enough recordings at studios that were bigger than my project studio, but still small-time, to find out that stereo "enhancement" is okay on your boom-box, but not always in your post-mix. Another thing to stay away from is over-use of the "Sonic Maximizer" Yeeouch!

Actually, what my freind was describing was running one channel (left or right, doesn't matter) through a delay to make it one millisecond behind the other channel. That would keep a stereo phase problem from occurring. It's the kind of thing you experience at a stereo shop when two speakers are facing each other - the waveforms that are exactly alike cancel each other out. A similar thing happens no matter which direction your speakers are facing, to an extent. I understood it even better once he gave a full explanation. Sorry about all the confusion.

Anyway, I found out how to do it - I just take one channel, run it through a delay (only 1-2 milliseconds -- any more gets mushy), and some things 'came out' that you couldn't hear as well before.

Thanks again for all the help and advice. When I get this finished, I'll post a web address, so you can all get an MP3 and see what you think.

Atommusic
 
Oh I see....

But isn't it better to just be paying attention to phase issues while tracking?????? I mean, again, if there's a phase issue that's needs fixing on a mix that wasn't caught before, fine.... but this sort of "blanket" phase fix seems a bit extreme!

Ed, John, Shailat - have you guys ever heard of this as a common technique that is part of the final mix and/or mastering process? (It's new to me....)

(Jeez.... if it is, I'd better start doing it!!!!!!!!!!)
;)

Bruce
 
Atomusic,

You are making a mistake.
What you are doing is LIKE a stereo enhancer but in a primitive way.
If you use this delay you will widen your stereo image BUT you will lose some of the CENTER of your image.

As bvaleria said fix your phase problems in your mix meaning - get the result you want during the mix and not some solution were you are actully damaging your initial intent in your mix. You mix for 10 hours and then by delaying your left side you change your whole concept of what you hear....

Sure some things sound more clear. It sounds at first cool but did you try to hear it in mono ?!?. did you listen to the center on your mix now?. Listen to your Kick drum and Bass... do they have the same defenition and power?.

If you use a delay from Left to right for example in a E. Guitar then great
That can help your image to be more clear. But to run it through a whole mix is a mistake IMHO.

Work out your problems before you run it through a toy like a Stereo enhancer.

If you think it sounds great then use it but make sure you really want it.
 
Well, I tried it. Here's the pro & con List

Pro: Definite stereo separation
Sharper (clear) sound
Vocals stand out better

Con: Vocals stand out too much, if I mixed them high to begin with
I have to mix, then phase, then mix again til it's right
Had to spend money (ick) for a program to do that.



of course, the program also has a much better normaliser than the one that's stock with Cakewalk, which is what I'm using to mix on. The delay didn't change the depth, definition, or punch on the bass & kick drum when run through a regular stereo system, but I did think they lost a little on my mixing speakers. I run everything flat to mix on, so if it's good on flat, it'll be better on full eq & loudness, right?

Well, back to the board!

BTW, Shailat and bvaleria, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. all to often, one could get the impression that someone who is experienced doesn't have the time for those of us getting started, and I for one appreciate it.
 
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