Stand alone unit for vocal recordings.

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NLAlston

NLAlston

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Hello all,

I have been trying, and very unsuccessfully so, to line my sequenced songs (from my Yamaha QY700) into Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, then add vocal tracks on top of the music. It is more than likely that I need a great deal more equipment than I have right now (don't laugh - just my sequencer, and an old mic). I am not attempting to do any professional grade work, just to be able to listen to y stuff with included vocals. Would I be better off with a stand alone unit to do what I need? If so, what would be the cheapest unit that I could get which would do a decent job of rendering my vocals? I would rather deal a hard-drive based system, rather than one which utilizes the 'tape' format. And, if there was such a unit for my needs, would I need anything more than a decent mic? This is very, VERY important to me, and I hope that someone wouldn't mind steering me in the right direction. Thank you.

Nate
 
Well friend you could look on e-bay for a used roland 840 but make sure it was in a smoke free environment and find out how many miles are on it before you purchase anything also make sure you get a manual included in the deal, visit www.vsplanet.com for some more info and feedback on roland product's it's a great source of info and you'll find the folk's their very helpful and friendly. good luck
 
There are a lot of options but you will most likely have the same issues with sync that you are having with your current setup. How are you doing things currently? What exactly is the problem?
 
TexRoadkill said:
There are a lot of options but you will most likely have the same issues with sync that you are having with your current setup. How are you doing things currently? What exactly is the problem?
Click to expand...
It's my hair. I just don't know what to do with it these days. Any advice sweety-pie...?
 
High!

I'd try the VS 840 or a VS 880... The syncing is quite easy there. I always had latency problems with my 'puter so I bought a used VS880EX. (Didn't wanna use the 'puter anyway - I work too much with these boxes...)

I'd recommend to get a mic for ~$100 and a cheap mic amp in any case! Something like an audio buddy will already improve your sound a lot...

aXel
 
HI AXel,

And thank you (as well as all the others) for responding to my query. I figured that there was a unit out there which would fit my needs, but didn't know which to consider investing in. Fostex has a new 8-track unit out now (the MR-8) which is selling for $300, but me-thinks that I would fare considerably better by looking toward one of the units that you mentioned (one of the Roland VS models). I've never owned a digital recorder before (other than my music sequencer) but I have joined a BBS site, on digital equipment, and the VS line seems to have the greatest following. Like you, AXel, I wish to lose my dependancy on the 'puter - when it comes down to my musical endeavors - so I will be seeking a unit which incorporates a built-in burner. I can't wait until I get my hands on one of these gems.

Regarding mics - what would you suggest for good vocal reproduction? Also, would a dedicated mic amp be needed if one has a mixer? (mine is a Behringer 802A).

Thanks much.

Nate
 
At first: I'm definitely NOT someone with really much know-how about equipment, but maybe it is easier for me to be at your level that someone who plays in the pro league :D

Well it's the old thing about behringer... I own some behringer stuff, and have to admit that I'm not really happy with it. OTOH some reviews on the berhinger stuff was quite OK -- considering the price. So I'd say start with it...

The mic -- hmm. Depends a lot on your voice... I think your behringer has phantom power, so I'd recommend a condenser... They simply give a better definition of the things you record... Prolly a cheap large dia condenser (you can even get some for something like $100)would fit your needs best. OTOH, if you have a very bassy voice it might push the bass too much... Then maybe a small dia condenser would be better... Or if you have some background noise you'll hear it a lot more with those condensers - then maybe a dynamic might be the best choice - you should think and try first... (But prolly your cheap mic is a dynamic)

I got me an apex 420 (or 430 - forgot it but the one with the single diaphragm) that I like a lot on my voice. I did some er.. well... 'nu punk' (hip hop / punk mix) stuff where I liked my voice over an AKG C1000 a lot... DON'T buy these el cheapo small dias for 30$ or so - they'll prolly sound very harsh (I know this :( ) But I think you should do a search in the recording/microphones parts of this forum... The thing is: if you buy one of these real cheapos you'll buy another VERY soon. If you buy something at least half way decent, it should work... And you CAN also use it on acoustic stuff. If you SHOULD wanna use a dynamic for micing an amp someday, you got the cheap one for test...

Built in burner? Me no have one... An external should be enough. Then you should choose the 880 or the 880EX -- AFAIK, there is no possibility to hook a burner to the 840... If you buy an 880, care for the FX card being in. The 880EX even gives you the possibility of using the MasteringToolKit (MTK) that helps you in creating a 'louder' cd, if your mixes don't get that loud by themselves... If you mostly record the way you descibed above, you can use the MAS mode with its 6 tracks (2 for QY, 1-2 for voice and two as mixdown target), it does not use the hated RDAC audio compression, that is said to have some quality losses. I was very happy with my 880EX, I even got me an additional 1680 now... Oh yeah, a lot of guys are very pissed about the manuals, so if you usually have problems with manuals, there might be better machines. But I really recommend you to buy some books about audio engineering/recording/mixing... They have helped me a lot...

Ciao,

aXel
 
Hey aXel,

Man - you really are a big help to me. Regarding the mic, I think that I will save up a few more $$ to get a better type of microphone. I am a bass singer, for the most part, and will need something that can handle this type of voice well. I will most definitely check out the 'recording/microphones' section of this forum.

I don't know why I mentioned the need of a digital recorder incorporating a 'burner'. I just didn't want to have to tie in my computer to the operation. If a decent unit happened to have one incorporated - fine, but I could get along just as well with the ability to connect to an external burner. I just don't wish to have include my computer in the mix for burning my creations.


If you mostly record the way you descibed above, you can use the MAS mode with its 6 tracks (2 for QY, 1-2 for voice and two as mixdown target), it does not use the hated RDAC audio compression, that is said to have some quality losses

aXel - recording as you have outlined, above, means to me that one is left with just two tracks (1 & 2) for vocals. I like a lot of vocal backgrounding (that 'group' sound) in my songs, which (being that I work alone) means either a great number of tracks, or a lot of overdubbing. I do happen to have a vocal harmonizer, but even with this I will be of a need for more space. I know that, with my QY700, I can Copy, Insert, Overdub (the whole 9 yards), and was wondering if the digital recorders functioned similarly. Man, if they indeed DO I will be flyin' high. Please let me know if an 8-track unit would suffice me fine, or if I would have to save much more for a 16 or 24-track unit.

Thanks pal

Nate

!!UPDATE!!

aXel, I just did a little searching, and have decided on maybe a different manufacturer. The Yamaha MD-8, AW2816, and the AW16G have all captivated my interest. I am almost with certainty that a definite effort will be rendered toward one of these units. It isn't that I am intimidated with manuals, but these units are supposed to be a little more 'user-friendly' - and I am interested in getting my vocals down, ASAP (smile). Answers to the above questions would still be beneficial to me, though, and I hope you won't mind sharing more of your knowledge.
 
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With modern digital recorders, you surely do the edit operations you described. One of the most powerful things IMO is the V-tracks that allow you to record different takes... On the 880EX, you can record up to 128 tracks, but only playback 8 (or like I said 6 in MAS mode).

Once you understood this concept, you should be able to word quite efficient...

I'm sure the AW16g or the 2816 are really fine - I'd NOT buy the md8 as it uses the minidisc atrac that sound a lot worse than the Roland RDAC... The yammies have amazing capabilities, and are quite cheap, but they seem to be rather sensitive to power losses... So you'll have to know. (I recommend these yammies very often. Nevertheless, the Roland effects are said to be better, but the yammies have better EQ and dynamics on every channel.)

But keep in mind, the VS880ex used will be at max half the price, and I though you were looking for a cheap thing...

aXel
 
But keep in mind, the VS880ex used will be at max half the price, and I though you were looking for a cheap thing...

aXel [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey aXel,

Yes, I was sort of leaning toward something which wouldn't call for deep diggings into one's pocket, but - as I have rendered greater thought to the matter - I think it best that I shoot for something a little higher than that which is considered to be "base-line" equipment. I have no problem saving toward a higher-grade unit, I just want to try and make certain that whatever I decide to go with won't be over-kill. I wish to get the absolute best recorder that I can, for the level of my needs. Yesterday, I found a used VS-840EX at our local Guitar Center Store, for $395. I don't think that there was a manual, and the unit looked quite used. The screen was really scratched, and I thought it best to just leave it alone. For such units (unless you know the seller of a used one) I think it would be wise to spend the extra $$ for "new". Well, it will be one of these baby's, hopefully within the next few weeks, and I am going to be a happy man when I DO get it.

Blessings,

Nate
 
aXel,

I hope that you won't mind my coming at you again, and I assure you that this will be the very last time. I made it out to 'Jackson Music' after I got off work, today, and spoke with a salesperson there who showed me some units. Of the multitrackers that fit more comfortably into my near-future pocket, the two that I was most impressed with were the Yamaha AW16G, and the Korg D-1200. He knew little about the former, but was the owner of one of the latter units, and he was happy to show me some things on that particular machine. To say that I was WOWED would be a definite understatement, but I wondered why he kept pushing the Korg over and above the Yamaha - when he, admittedly, didn't know anything about that machine. The Korg is a 12-track machine, whereas the Yamaha is a 16-track unit, and I would think it is safe to say that the Yamaha could perform all of the things that the Korg was able to. One thing: am I correct in thinking that all digital multitrackers render the very same quality of recording, and that the higher price tags of some units are directly related to the extra bells & whistles? Also (when buying a unit with a burner) I read, somewhere, that one must be careful. The reason being, is that some manufacturers have incorporated something into the package which prevents disk-copying. So, by this, once a CD is mastered - it can't be copied. I need to find out which units fall under this setup before I make my purchase. Another thing: do you know if the fans turn off, on these units, while recording/playing back? I know that it does on the big brother to the Korg D-1200 (Korg D-1600), but could find nothing in the write-ups of any other machine. Please get back to me just one more time - with answers (if you can) to the above questions. I could never express what your helpfulness is doing for me.

Blessings,

Nate
 
I have D1200

I have a D1200 and its super easy to learn and sounds great. It has a USB port so you can export .wav files to you PC. You can also get an optional Burner for $199 or use the USB port like I do and go through my PC. I play drums and track drum parts to see what works.
My partner and I have a full blown digital studio with all the trimmings and I use this at home to play with. Easy to learn..just plug in the mic, assign a track arm the fader and go. I was recordning tracks in 10 minutes. Super clean sound.
I was looking at all the others too and my guy at Sam Ash showed me how easy the Korgs were and I was floored by the sound quality....if you can swing $899 your in.
Ed
The new guy on the block--hehehehe
 
What I did not like about the Korg D1600 was the EQ that seemed to be inferior (from settign capabilities) to the VS (and the yammies) and the missing automix capabilities. The yammie has no automix at all, unless you use an external sequencer to record the moves. I dunno anything about the aw16G fan, but the BURNERS fan seemed to be quite loud in the aw4416...

I have not yet heard the yamaha, but to me it made the impression of a more mature machine (but IMO, EQ and channel dynamics are a plus that is hard to overtake)... The demos I've heard on the korg sounded quite nice... The Korg can afaik also be used for 16bit recording only, as you'll loose half of your tracks when going to 16bit.

The missing automix is a real drawback. (Bu the Korg is also only static scenes that can be played one after another...). I think that most machines with a burner will allow you to switch the copy protection bit off...

The thing is that once you're used to a machine, you always prefer it to another with different user interface.

Another important thing is to have a place that may give you some help with your machine until you know it by heart - for the vs machines there would be the vsplanet, where you can find a lot of help. The price for your vs840 was ridiculously high. If you look around a little, I'm sure you can find some b-stock for somethign 600$ (I nearly bought one for 640€ here in germany and it was de facto new).

But have you thought of another thing: it's not done with the machine alone... Quite soon you will like to have something like an external compressor, mic preamp and a nice mic. So a cheaper machine might be a better step into the right direction... The pres on the little machines are not good...

aXel
 
Hey aXel,

One reason that I got away from the analog recording machines (mine was a Fostex X-15), was because of the degradation of sound that was effected after my "bouncings". I started looking at digital recorders after being told that there is absolutely NO degrading of sound - regardless of how many times you bounce down. But I recently read a reply of yours, on another thread, about the inferiority of sound due to bounce-downs. Is this really the deal?

Blessings,

Nate
 
High Nate!

Well there seems to be some sort of degradation, but there is also much hype about that topic. The Roland stuff is surely much better than the minidisc stuff... Don't forget that the audio cassete thingies have such a thin stripe of tape to record on, you'll hear everything. The sparkle is being lost simply by listening too often to the tape, you should not really compare. Have you ever listened to a minidisc? Does it get on your nerves? There's also compression...

I think it might also have something to do with the stuff that you do: if you do a lot of acoustic stuff the rdac may be a crucial issue - I do punk rock which is much less sensitive...

But the stuff that you described seems to get around with none or very few bounces, so I think it should not be a real topic. Then again if you read stuff from the vsplanet, even some of the big critics against the RDAC state that it might be more of the digital mixer that is the problem.

IMO, there are more important things than the compression alone... How do you like the quality of the FX? Do you like the look and feel of the machine? (I simply found the Korg d16 too 'cheap' - I would not wanna take it to rehearsals...)

The price differences are not only bells and whistles... The yamaha 16G has only 16 bit recording at 44.1kHz . Surely, this is the CD rate, but... If you are able to record at 24bit, it may easily be that you don't need as much outboard gear (like compressors) as you have lots of headroom and can compress afterwards... I'd really love to record 24 bit, but it is not so feasible to me...

I know, this is a decision to take, but I'd not be too afraid... The only thing I would DEFINITELY NOT buy is something like the fostex VF series, simply as they have strange EQ settings afaik. they're cheap, but you'll have a really a hard time when mixing...

But really keep in mind: it's not only the machine... So don't spend everything that you have on a standalone thing... If you have a machine that can be midi synced, you may even think of using it lateron as a little recording slave (drums, synth pads or something like that...)

aXel
 
aXel,

GUESS WHAT!!! I just found out, earlier today, that my money will definitely be in by next Thursday. I felt even closer to the AW16G, until my wife brought a very pressing matter to my attention. Most of the money that I had to spend, on that recorder, might have to be applied to another concern. It looks, now, that I may have no more than $300 - $325 to spend on a unit. That amount only puts me in the ball-park for the Fostex MR-8. Do you know anything about this new machine? I can't find anything where it mentions v-tracks, or having the 'undo' functionality. If you know something, please let me know.

Blessings,

Nate
 
I think to work halfway decent with that fostex baby, you'll have to have a pc around the little machine... If you have one and use some PC mixing in addition - maybe it'll be your thing. You're gonna need at least one more bigger card, and I doubt that the quality will be better than that of the roland machines...

So maybe you're back in the 'buy used' league again... I saw some vs880 for about that price (in Germany!) used but in good condition except for the harddisk being defective... But you're gonna get them rather cheap... The 840 should be even cheaper, but I consider the 880 a much better machine. If you wait for an 880EX, you'll prolly be even happier...

Just my 2c

aXel
 
Hey AXel,

I know that it has been a while, since last I updated, but I wanted to let you know that finances did indeed permit for me to get the recorder that I wanted. I now have the Yamaha AW16G in my possession. I can't say that I have really spent any mentionable time on it - with the way that I have been working, lately - but the little that I have been able to do on it has proven that I did make the right choice. Thanks again for all your helpfulness.

Blessings,

Nate.
 
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