cominginsecond
Decentralized Media Mogul
Can anyone who has used both of these mics comment on their performance on vocals and/or acoustic guitars?
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dres
New member
I had a chance to A/B both these mics and a C3 a several weeks ago on voice. IMHO the C3 was better than the TB1 therefore from a sound point of view I'm not really sure why anyone would buy the TB1 since the C1 is cheaper and in my opinion sounds significantly better. I'm sure that comment will cause a stir 
What did I buy ? I chose the NTK in the end.. although it was slightly silibant I felt it had the best sound. But the C3 was also very good.... it was a tight contest.
What did I buy ? I chose the NTK in the end.. although it was slightly silibant I felt it had the best sound. But the C3 was also very good.... it was a tight contest.
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Randy Yell
New member
Hmmmm.....I'm a little confused Dres.You said that you A/B'd the NTK,the TB1 and the C3 and then you mention the C-1 is cheaper and sounds better than the TB1.Did you A/B the TB1 and the C1?The TB1 is cheaper than the C3 by the way.I have a TB1 and I like it very much but I really haven't compared it to many other mics.Keep in mind that at $300 the TB1 is significantly cheaper than the NTK.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Apples and oranges are being compared here. FET condensers- C1/C3 and tube mics NTK/TB1. Which you prefer depends on the voice and the material. Personally, I don't like the sound of tube mics on acoustic or electric guitar, but that's just my opinion.
For a general purpose LD condenser, C3 is my choice, it's a workhorse mic. For a tube mic, to my ear, NTK is vastly superior to TB-1 (and more expensive) NTK could be better compared to SP T3, a somewhat more expensive option with bass rolloff, a pad, and multipolar capability (NTK has none of the above). In the end, I chose C3 and NTK as a good working combination that offers me choices.-Richie
For a general purpose LD condenser, C3 is my choice, it's a workhorse mic. For a tube mic, to my ear, NTK is vastly superior to TB-1 (and more expensive) NTK could be better compared to SP T3, a somewhat more expensive option with bass rolloff, a pad, and multipolar capability (NTK has none of the above). In the end, I chose C3 and NTK as a good working combination that offers me choices.-Richie
alanhyatt
PMI Audio Group
Richard is correct here, the comparison is not quite the same. The TB1 against the NTK is less sibilant and way more neutral in sound. Compare the NTK against the T3. The T3 is $599.00 and holds up against the C12 quite well. We have done that comparison many times in many studios so I know that, and it is my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.
The NTK is a fixed cardiod like the TB1, so personal opinion will be the factor there. You either like the NTK or the TB1, they offer two different types of sound. The T3 is more flexible as it has three patterns and nine stages of pattern control. In addition, the T3 has a different sound, so again that will come down to what the user likes. The NTK and NTV are both fixed cardioid tube mics.
Either way, the TB1 and T3 are very well built good sounding mics. It all depends on wht your ears like to hear. This is why there are so many mic on the market. Everyone has different opinions on what they like. I suggest you try to hear all of them before you decide, and take what you get here as all good advice, but in the end, you should choose based on what you like.
Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group
The NTK is a fixed cardiod like the TB1, so personal opinion will be the factor there. You either like the NTK or the TB1, they offer two different types of sound. The T3 is more flexible as it has three patterns and nine stages of pattern control. In addition, the T3 has a different sound, so again that will come down to what the user likes. The NTK and NTV are both fixed cardioid tube mics.
Either way, the TB1 and T3 are very well built good sounding mics. It all depends on wht your ears like to hear. This is why there are so many mic on the market. Everyone has different opinions on what they like. I suggest you try to hear all of them before you decide, and take what you get here as all good advice, but in the end, you should choose based on what you like.
Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group
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littledog
New member
alanhyatt said:
I don't own a T3 and have never had the privilege of using one yet. Before i either get out the salt shaker or run out and buy a half-dozen, would that be the C12 or the C12VR you are referring to?
And when you say "holds up against" what exactly does that mean? And just for some perspective, would you say that the C12VR "holds up" against the C12?
Not trying to be annoying. Just trying to get some perspective on your personal evaluations. It would certainly be very exciting to be able to get a C12 clone for $599. At that price, it might even make the choice tough between that and your new Stephen Paul mic.
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Harvey Gerst
New member
littledog said:
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littledog
New member
Always good to have you weigh in on the issues, Harvey. You must be very busy these days, since your postings are way down. I'm flattered you took the time to respond to my questions.
I actually wasn't trying to set Alan up in any way. My question was an honest one generated by my admitted ignorance of the T3 product.
You see, I am on the one hand an obvious proponent of current technology being used to drive the price of quality down to where even i can afford it. The vast majority of my recording chain consists of items that didn't exist a few years ago, and the historical equivalents would have cost at least an order of magnitude more to purchase.
So if someone like Alan implies a product has C12 practical equivalency at about 20% of the cost, I don't discard the claim out of hand. But because I don't really know Alan, I need to ask at least a couple of questions before I let my hopes run wild.
That's why I was specifically asking about the C12 vs. C12VR. At least there I have some experience. So, if Alan were to say the C12VR does or does not "hold it's own" against a C12, that would give me a better feeling for what he meant by the same statements regarding the T3. Harvey, if Alan is in agreement with your interpretation of his remarks, then at least we can assume that the T3 blows away the C12VR. And at least that gives me a starting point!
Obviously, the only real evaluation can be done by personally listening to the mic. I'm certainly not trying to dodge that reality. Ordinarily I would never try to coerce Alan to critically compare his mic's to that of other manufacturers, but in this case he DID volunteer that opinion in an unsolicited context, so I think it is entirely fair to be able to ask a follow up question!
As always, thanks again Harvey for your commitment to dispelling ignorance!
I actually wasn't trying to set Alan up in any way. My question was an honest one generated by my admitted ignorance of the T3 product.
You see, I am on the one hand an obvious proponent of current technology being used to drive the price of quality down to where even i can afford it. The vast majority of my recording chain consists of items that didn't exist a few years ago, and the historical equivalents would have cost at least an order of magnitude more to purchase.
So if someone like Alan implies a product has C12 practical equivalency at about 20% of the cost, I don't discard the claim out of hand. But because I don't really know Alan, I need to ask at least a couple of questions before I let my hopes run wild.
That's why I was specifically asking about the C12 vs. C12VR. At least there I have some experience. So, if Alan were to say the C12VR does or does not "hold it's own" against a C12, that would give me a better feeling for what he meant by the same statements regarding the T3. Harvey, if Alan is in agreement with your interpretation of his remarks, then at least we can assume that the T3 blows away the C12VR. And at least that gives me a starting point!
Obviously, the only real evaluation can be done by personally listening to the mic. I'm certainly not trying to dodge that reality. Ordinarily I would never try to coerce Alan to critically compare his mic's to that of other manufacturers, but in this case he DID volunteer that opinion in an unsolicited context, so I think it is entirely fair to be able to ask a follow up question!
As always, thanks again Harvey for your commitment to dispelling ignorance!
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dres
New member
Randy Yell: What I meant was, as far as I understand it, if you just compare cardiod mode then the C3 essentially sounds the same as the C1. So considering the C1 is cheaper than the TB1 I wouldn't bother with the TB1 from my impression of the sound (C3 vs TB1). But like Alan says, mics have different colour, you really need to try it on your voice, in your room with your preamp.
When I did this test the TB1 wasn't even in the race. The C3 (cardiod) and NTK were much closer in character... tube or no tube... but my ears favoured the NTK for my voice in my room with my preamp.
I would have like to try the T3 but knew if I liked it I couldn't afford it.... so I thought it was safer to *not* listen to it
When I did this test the TB1 wasn't even in the race. The C3 (cardiod) and NTK were much closer in character... tube or no tube... but my ears favoured the NTK for my voice in my room with my preamp.
I would have like to try the T3 but knew if I liked it I couldn't afford it.... so I thought it was safer to *not* listen to it
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Ah, dres, that's where it gets dicey. Are we talking about *vocal* mics, or multi-purpose condensers? While of course there are differences, and very significant ones, between my Taylor, Epiphone, Ibanez, and the other guy's Martin, Takamine, Yamaha, etc., the difference isn't as great as my Jonathon Edwards vs. your Whitney Houston. Your choice, of course, is a as valid as mine. I found that C3 is a versatile transparent condenser useful as an overhead, an ambient mic, and a close instrument mic in addition to being an excellent vocal mic. I have found NTK to be particularly useful for gritty vocals, Rock and Roll, Blues, or Metal.
A lot of what I'm doing requires overdubs, either mine onto those of the other vocalists in the project, or theirs over mine, and matching the general mic types has produced better results for me. I recently did an overdub with C3 onto a recording done by one of my partners, Maureen Fleming, done with a U87. We tried NTK, but the mics were too different, and it sucked. The same track with C3 was near perfect.
Does this mean I'm going to give up my NTK? Hell no! For what I use it for, it's the best mic I can afford, and I got an excellent deal on it. I would have very much liked the multi-polar capabilities of T3, but I couldn't have gotten T3 for anywhere near what I paid for the NTK, and I wasn't able to audition it at the time either. It remains my belief that if you are going to get 1 LD condenser only, it should have multi-polar capability and no tube. If your getting a mic for 1 vocalist, get whatever suits their voice and material. I also believe that after you get that multi-purpose condenser and a couple of matched SD's, the next thing you get is a tube mic, and my experience indicates NTK is a very good one for the money.-Richie
A lot of what I'm doing requires overdubs, either mine onto those of the other vocalists in the project, or theirs over mine, and matching the general mic types has produced better results for me. I recently did an overdub with C3 onto a recording done by one of my partners, Maureen Fleming, done with a U87. We tried NTK, but the mics were too different, and it sucked. The same track with C3 was near perfect.
Does this mean I'm going to give up my NTK? Hell no! For what I use it for, it's the best mic I can afford, and I got an excellent deal on it. I would have very much liked the multi-polar capabilities of T3, but I couldn't have gotten T3 for anywhere near what I paid for the NTK, and I wasn't able to audition it at the time either. It remains my belief that if you are going to get 1 LD condenser only, it should have multi-polar capability and no tube. If your getting a mic for 1 vocalist, get whatever suits their voice and material. I also believe that after you get that multi-purpose condenser and a couple of matched SD's, the next thing you get is a tube mic, and my experience indicates NTK is a very good one for the money.-Richie
alanhyatt
PMI Audio Group
littledog said:
Littledog,
First of all, don't go buying anything based on my accounts. I am not a big fan of the C12VR, yet many out there love them. I have seen countless posts from people on that subject. As for the C12, well it is a great friggin mic, and the T3 is not a clone of it. In the studio we have used the T3 side by side to a C12 on many occaisions. Yes, there are differences that can sway a room full of people to like one vs. the other, and each mic will present itself better on certian applications.
littledog said:
Yes, these are my opinions as an engineer, not an owner of a mic company. What I mean by hold up is that I personally would not be unhappy using either mic, and the performance results in the mix is quite good. So, for any mic at a price of $599.00 that holds up next to it, and I do not mean a clone, then to me that is a big plus. Frankly, I don't like clones. If you want the real thing, get it! All other clones are just close representations of the real thing, and may be better or worse, but never the same.
The T3 is a great addition to any mic locker that is looking for a tube addition with a certian "type" of sound, but in no means does that mean it will be a clone of anything. Stephen Pauls mic, is not my mic. I will only fund it, make it and distribute it. Stephen makes all the decisions on the technical aspect of the mic, so keep in mind I have nothing to do with its design.
You will want a Stephen Paul mic for what it offers and what it is, just as you would any other well known mic. Studio Projects is a company that puts out what it does. Good quality mics at a very affordable price. Nothing more, or less. What the customer hears is what they hear, and that is why we have so many mic brands on the market. What one thinks sounds one way, another has the opposite opinion, so as a mic manufacturer, I can only hope that the customers like what we are doing. I think they "hold up" to many other great mics out there, and for the price it puts a good mic in someones locker. There is not much more to it than that.
Alan Hyatt
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littledog
New member
Thanks, Alan, for the clarification.
If you have ever had the opportunity to compare them, as an engineer, how would you say the T3 compares soundwise (differences and similarities) to an AT 4060, a Lawson L47mp, or a Neumann M149? You may also throw the C12 in there as well if you wish!
Thanks!
If you have ever had the opportunity to compare them, as an engineer, how would you say the T3 compares soundwise (differences and similarities) to an AT 4060, a Lawson L47mp, or a Neumann M149? You may also throw the C12 in there as well if you wish!
Thanks!
alanhyatt
PMI Audio Group
Littledog,
It is not about "comparison" to me. To me it is about does a mic hold up on a track, and in the end...the mix. All the mics you mention are very good. Out of all of them, the only one I own is a M149, and I love it for various vocals.
In many cases, the T3 has sounded very similar, and in others it has not, but in the end, I have been very happy with the results of both mics. The T3 has a rich high end with no sibilant peaks, and a silky midrange. The T3 has a good low end, and maybe sometimes a little too much, but the pattern control can help there as will placement, but the T3 is one of my go to female vocal mics, and I love it for acoustics as well. I am not much of an AT guy, and the Lawson mics are supposed to be clones, and like I said earlier, if you want the real thing that much, get it.
I love every mic in my closet, but I don't own everything, so I have to be happy with the selection I have.
Alan Hyatt
It is not about "comparison" to me. To me it is about does a mic hold up on a track, and in the end...the mix. All the mics you mention are very good. Out of all of them, the only one I own is a M149, and I love it for various vocals.
In many cases, the T3 has sounded very similar, and in others it has not, but in the end, I have been very happy with the results of both mics. The T3 has a rich high end with no sibilant peaks, and a silky midrange. The T3 has a good low end, and maybe sometimes a little too much, but the pattern control can help there as will placement, but the T3 is one of my go to female vocal mics, and I love it for acoustics as well. I am not much of an AT guy, and the Lawson mics are supposed to be clones, and like I said earlier, if you want the real thing that much, get it.
I love every mic in my closet, but I don't own everything, so I have to be happy with the selection I have.
Alan Hyatt
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littledog
New member
Thanks for the clarifications, Alan. Like you, I can't afford every mic I'd like to have, so I am very interested in lower cost alternatives. I see now I was probably getting too hung up on the semantics of "holds up".
If I were to use that term, I would want it to mean that if "mic x" was unavailable or unaffordable, "mic y" would certainly be a serviceable substitute. Is that a fair approximation of what you mean?
By the way, I do own the Lawson, and while it may be a clone of a 47 (which I don't have, and I'm not even sure that is what it is represented to be) in my limited experience it has more than 'held up" against (and sometimes blown away) anything else I've tried anywhere around it's price point. Naturally, I am eager to compare Stephen's mic.
Thanks again.
If I were to use that term, I would want it to mean that if "mic x" was unavailable or unaffordable, "mic y" would certainly be a serviceable substitute. Is that a fair approximation of what you mean?
By the way, I do own the Lawson, and while it may be a clone of a 47 (which I don't have, and I'm not even sure that is what it is represented to be) in my limited experience it has more than 'held up" against (and sometimes blown away) anything else I've tried anywhere around it's price point. Naturally, I am eager to compare Stephen's mic.
Thanks again.
