Sounding Louder?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ziplock43
  • Start date Start date
ziplock43 said:
It seems for me that all the time I'm sounding so much softer than other, professional recordings.

I've tried mastering but even when it gets close to the edge it sounds soft.

Any techniques I should try? Or is it just my equiptment.

1) Sorry, there are no easy answers or quick fixes to getting pro sounding results.

2) Most everything you hear now is way too loud, anyway, so why imitate bad practice?

3) Why would you expect to be able to reproduce professional recordings without the knowledge and tools of professionals?

4) The quickest road to learning is to experiment on your own while guided by reading the advice of experts. For example, Bob Katz' book "Mastering Audio" covers all the bases on monitoring, compression, eq, etc. My short reading list for newbies would also include F. Alton Everest's "Master Handbook of Acoustics" (to learn how to improve your recording and monitoring space(s)) and Ron Streicher's "New Stereo Soundbook" (to learn the techniques and distinctions of the stereo illusion). Read those thoroughly and you will have many ideas of things to try out to improve your results.

Cheers,

Otto
 
uh...don't listen to chico about the line in and mic in jack thing...

you're talking about your computer's line in, aren't you? the mic one has a boosted level, and too much could fry the thing.

i think chico thought you were talking about the mic input or line in input on a mixer or some other gear.

if you do have a mixer, obviously you plug the mic into the appropriate place. but you plug the mixer into your line in, NOT your mic in.

...about not being able to get pro volume...i answered why you'll never get pro volume out of your home gear...even if the pro engineer is using your gear, he won't get the same results or volume. so i guess i assumed you were a good engineer, and thought other reasons for low levels would be the room or musical performance.
 
cello_pudding said:
uh...don't listen to chico about the line in and mic in jack thing...

I assumed he was talking about his mic level.....
asking why he couldn't get a loud enough signal with his microphone. since his topic was "souding louder" and he kept asking about his microphone and where he should plug it in.
obviously I would respond with an answer about where he should plug his mic in.


but for now...since this topic has grown into "why is my mix not loud enough," I'm going to copy and paste a thread I responded to earlier on a different site (my PT site). Of course this was in response to someone who knew a little about compression and the different kinds of metering. So if you don't know what either of those things are...research them before reading this.

It has NOTHING to do with just adding a mastering limiter on the stereo bus output to increase the loudness. Because IMO, that actually does WORSE for your mix. During the recording process there isn't a ton you can do with how each instrument records/plays. But during the mix process you have entire control over EVERY track...so the reason your mix is quiet is because of YOU and the way you mix. You have to understand how each track effects your mix.


the human ear hears loudness in a way peak meters cannot represent. It's actually possible to have a really loud mix without your meters even being CLOSE to 0dbFS. There's a separate metering called RMS metering that represents "loud" better. This is why I advocate always mixing with an RMS meter.

Without delving way too deep into the topic of the loudness wars and how to get a really loud mix and not ruin the dynamics of your song (because it happens all the time)...it's actually the peaks you're watching on your peak meter that are robbing you of loudness. Most likely in the drums. Because you're only able to turn up a snare track so much before it starts to clip, you're restricted to only a certain volume. This in turn forces you to do the same for all the other tracks, so the end result is an apparent "quiet mix."

But what if you could limit those peaks on the snare drum? Say they are peaking right now around -3dBFS...what if you could limit them to around -7dBFS? Then you add a make up gain to turn them up even louder, knowing that they'll never go beyond a certain point...which you'll know that certain point. What happens is when you have peaks at -3dBFS, your RMS for that track is probably way lower...maybe somewhere at like -15dBFS (I'm just throwing out a number, each track varies). But if you've limited the peak to not go above -7dBFS, your RMS level is STILL -15dBFS. And remember, RMS is a better representation of how we perceive loudness. So it's going to be the same loudness, you've just controlled the peaks of the instrument. Then you can turn up the track even louder..maybe another +4dBFS. So now you're peaks are at -3dBFS (the same place they were earlier before peaking)...but your RMS level is at -11dBFS! You're just turned up that snare track +4dBFS (roughly doubled the loudness) without clipping the track.

Try another experimentation. Play back your track as is (without limiting yet) and watch your levels. Listen to how loud it is. Now take the drums or any other transient material out and listen to how loud it is...and watch the meters. The peak meters will drop dramatically. And you actually can turn your mix up more. It's usually the drums that are robbing you of this. So good tracking and mixing skills can give you some more headroom.

The problem is this can ruin your dynamic range. Most people don't mind sacrificing this for volume...others argue that a dynamic range is the most important aspect of a song. I think it's a balance between both. A lot of people want volume so we have to give it to them. But you don't want to ruin the quality of your mix, so you have to limit/compress tastefully. The more you practice mixing the more you'll hear the difference between tasteful and not.

Of course usually I just respond to these posts with "your mix isn't as loud as the Red Hot Chili Peppers??? just turn up your speakers then." Which gets some gripes from people. But there are much more important things to pay attention to in your mix than comparing your volume to other CDs. Especially CDs that are recorded, mixed and mastered by professional musicians, with professional engineers, on professional equipment in the most professional facilities. It's like a college kid saying "my pot roast doesn't taste at all like the fancy restaurant's does down the street." Especially if this is first time cooking!
Don't worry so much about how your mix sounds volume wise right up next to someone elses. This isn't a pissing contest...it's music.

HTH
 
@ziplock43, to normalize in AA 2.0...

1. In menu click "Effects" --> "Amplitude" --> "Normalize (process)…"
2. Check the “Decibels format”
3. In “Normalize to” input the desired maximum dB (try -2 dB).
4. Then click OK

Play around with “Noise reduction (process)…” to reduce the noise or hiss
 
who's the nice guy that left me neg rep?

and why did you say.... "pros use 57's right?"...

i loved the cowardice of not leaving your name.

this is why rep means nothing.

i mean..walters has higher rep than me. walters!
 
What's wrong with plugging my mixer into my Microphone Jack? Whenever I plug it into the Line-in it's always WAYYYY to soft.
 
ziplock43 said:
What's wrong with plugging my mixer into my Microphone Jack? Whenever I plug it into the Line-in it's always WAYYYY to soft.

a typical mixer sends a line level signal out it's outputs. The microphone input is looking for a different level...typically something it can amplify up to line level.

Think this:
microphone-->preamp-->line level

that's the basic way things happen. the mixer is already at line level though. so no point in plugging it into the mic input. It's just going to amplify it further.
IMO, the reason it's way too soft is because a) what I copied/pasted above and b) monitor calibration. Although some people will disagree with me (Glen)...calibrating your monitors to a "set" level will allow you to even out all your mixes and allow loud to be the same loud it was two weeks prior with each mix.
 
@ziplock43, let's put it this way... you can't get a decent sound and enough gain from normal pc soundcard. I started from SB live and I have this problem. I have to normalize in order to have the right gain.

Search for firewire mixers like phonic or alesis.
 
strange. i always used to use the absolute lowest level setting when i used the mixer>soundcard method. i got a good amount of volume from the tape out. it wasn't even turned up all the way either. probably at half or so.
 
cello_pudding said:
strange. i always used to use the absolute lowest level setting when i used the mixer>soundcard method. i got a good amount of volume from the tape out. it wasn't even turned up all the way either. probably at half or so.
Good... what's your signal chain?
 
ziplock43 said:
It seems for me that all the time I'm sounding so much softer than other, professional recordings. Granted, I'm using 2 cheap dynamic microphones and a Dell Dimension desktop, but I would think that only would affect the quality of the sound.

Should I invest in a good condensor mic? It just seems like I always have to turn my volume up high to hear my music at the same aparent volume as other, professional things. I've tried mastering but even when it gets close to the edge it sounds soft.

Any techniques I should try? Or is it just my equiptment.

I'm using Adobe Audition 2.0
Yeah a decent soundcard will definetly help. Good mics will definetly help as with good pre amps. Good recording techniques will also help.
In pro mixes that sound louder at the same apparent volume to your mix, the pro mixes usually have more mids around 1-3k. This range can be pretty harsh if you try and just boost this area on badly recorded tracks.
Thats why using decent mics, pres, and soundcard will help you to be able to boost the 1-3k range easier without harshness.
The reason mixes boosted in this range sound louder is becuase our ears are pretty sensitive to this area thus making it sound louder although at the same level as your mix.

Eck
 
TheHunter said:
@ziplock43, let's put it this way... you can't get a decent sound and enough gain from normal pc soundcard. I started from SB live and I have this problem. I have to normalize in order to have the right gain.

Search for firewire mixers like phonic or alesis.
I use Soundblaster Audigy2 card and the level is totally fine. Ok the sound sint as clean as a decent soundcard but the level is totally fine.

Eck
 
TheHunter said:
Good... what's your signal chain?

well...a year ago i used an old mark III peavey mixer. the tape out volume knob wasn't set very high as i remember. It was simply hooked up with a 1/4 inch stereo trs to 1/8 in stereo trs into whatever stock soundcard came with my computer.

i found the soundcard was louder than the mixer so i turned down the recording volume on my computer as much as possible. i put it all the way down and hit my up arrow once, and then adjusted the tape out so that a decent volume in would make a decent volume out.


i still don't get what the problem is with my original post. people are saying "way to give totally wrong information" what is wrong about my information? are you saying cheap dynamics don't accentuate certain frequencies? are you saying his compressors are just as good as a pro's? are you saying a pro could get the same volume out of the posters equipment? granted, i'll admit that i assumed he knew how to use his mics well.
 
ive only seen one person mention this...but mastering if done right is what can make or break a mix. also limiting nor mormalizing a mix imho is not the correct way to get a mix to stand out. eq, compression, and light limiting in that order is the proper way. thats just my opinion and what i have read other well known mastering engineers do it.
 
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