Songwriting for a beginner

Sweetnighter

Sweetnighter

New member
So from start to finish, what is your process for songwriting? I'm relatively new, but I have a good background in music theory, mainly through learning jazz improvization. Do you write it all out on manuscript paper before you record, or do you roll the tape and come up with ideas first? Do you build a chord progression around a theme, or do you build the theme off of the chord progression? How do you notate synth loops and sound effects? Do you do it by hand or with software? Any help would be much appreciated. :)
 
I can tell you how I write but I don't know if it'll be much use to you... everyone does it differently.. although I know my two band mates usually write in a similar way to me...

I'll begin by picking up my acoustic guitar and start strumming some chords...

{quite regularly the songwriting process stalls here... I put down the guitar and forget about it for rest of the day...}

sometimes, however, a new chord shape or something will kick start something fresh... or i'll try a different tuning and find something inspiring (since I don't know the chords I am forced to invent them)...

{another potential stalling point - often guitar chord/riffs/progressions never come to much}

from there I start to sing nonsense words to the beginnings of a melody... sometimes a chord chosen will dictate where the melody goes.. or sometimes I need to search through chords to find the one that the melody is asking for...

the nonsense words carry meaning - there is usually an emotion or a feeling underneath that needs to come to the surface... at this point you need to feel the music... you also need to be alone cos you are sound like a babbling idiot as you let try to let the words bubble to the surface and mold themselves into something resembling english... this is the funny part... I think my subconscious mind knows the words it wants and is feeling the emotions connected with them while my conscious mind is still in the dark... it's important here not to rush lyrics... you just need to keep babbling/singing and they'll bubble up eventually...

once I have a verse (and probably a chorus as well)... that's when I take a step back and ask myself... Ok what is this song about? Who is singing? (it's not always me) Why is he/she saying the things he is? By asking myself these kinds of questions I have a better idea of what to write to plug the gaps that the babbling/bubbling process didn't create... often these lyrics are just what I call padding... they fit around what I came up with previously without changing the meaning of the song too much...

at this stage the song is half completed... it likely still needs more instruments playing and properly arranged into a song structure...

if the other two guys in the band are around we'll probably jam the song and I'll sing it as many times as they like while they might write a bassline, or a mandola part, or an electric guitar part etc...

or if nobody else is about then I'll record my self in cubase and start to layer other instruments over me and the acoustic...

after that the last thing to do is to chop slice, copy and paste... drag around etc... to get the perfect song arrangement...

That's the song written... then you've got to record it properly... still trying to work out how to do that!
 
Handsome Al said:
I can tell you how I write but I don't know if it'll be much use to you... everyone does it differently.. although I know my two band mates usually write in a similar way to me...

I'll begin by picking up my acoustic guitar and start strumming some chords...

{quite regularly the songwriting process stalls here... I put down the guitar and forget about it for rest of the day...}

sometimes, however, a new chord shape or something will kick start something fresh... or i'll try a different tuning and find something inspiring (since I don't know the chords I am forced to invent them)...

{another potential stalling point - often guitar chord/riffs/progressions never come to much}

from there I start to sing nonsense words to the beginnings of a melody... sometimes a chord chosen will dictate where the melody goes.. or sometimes I need to search through chords to find the one that the melody is asking for...

the nonsense words carry meaning - there is usually an emotion or a feeling underneath that needs to come to the surface... at this point you need to feel the music... you also need to be alone cos you are sound like a babbling idiot as you let try to let the words bubble to the surface and mold themselves into something resembling english... this is the funny part... I think my subconscious mind knows the words it wants and is feeling the emotions connected with them while my conscious mind is still in the dark... it's important here not to rush lyrics... you just need to keep babbling/singing and they'll bubble up eventually...

once I have a verse (and probably a chorus as well)... that's when I take a step back and ask myself... Ok what is this song about? Who is singing? (it's not always me) Why is he/she saying the things he is? By asking myself these kinds of questions I have a better idea of what to write to plug the gaps that the babbling/bubbling process didn't create... often these lyrics are just what I call padding... they fit around what I came up with previously without changing the meaning of the song too much...

at this stage the song is half completed... it likely still needs more instruments playing and properly arranged into a song structure...

if the other two guys in the band are around we'll probably jam the song and I'll sing it as many times as they like while they might write a bassline, or a mandola part, or an electric guitar part etc...

or if nobody else is about then I'll record my self in cubase and start to layer other instruments over me and the acoustic...

after that the last thing to do is to chop slice, copy and paste... drag around etc... to get the perfect song arrangement...

That's the song written... then you've got to record it properly... still trying to work out how to do that!
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That's my process too -- almost exactly -- 'tho I have no band mates to run things by. Plus, I'm just starting to be able to record now that my studio is coming together. For me, 95% of the time it's music first, followed by vocal melody singing nonsense words (where the end-of-lines start to take on the rhyming shapes), then the actual theme/lyric, much as Handsome Al goes about it. I occasionally write a lyric first, or compose music to the lyric of a collaborator (and the results were good), but like I said, I'm predominently a music-first songwriter.
 
Sweetnighter said:
So from start to finish, what is your process for songwriting? I'm relatively new, but I have a good background in music theory, mainly through learning jazz improvization. Do you write it all out on manuscript paper before you record, or do you roll the tape and come up with ideas first? Do you build a chord progression around a theme, or do you build the theme off of the chord progression? How do you notate synth loops and sound effects? Do you do it by hand or with software? Any help would be much appreciated. :)
Click to expand...

Every song is different. Some songs start with a title. Sometimes the words and melody come at the same time. Sometimes a chorus or a hook comes to you and you write a song around it. Sometimes you meld two chord progressions and find out you have created a fertile bed for lyrics. I've written several songs in my car over a period of days on my way back-and-forth from work.

Each song is like a child. Give it what it needs to grow.
 
Sweetnighter:

What kind of songs do you want to write? WHat are your songwriting goals? Answering these two questions for us might yeild more specific advice.

A
 
Everyone has their way. Mine starts one of these ways:
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Finding a good chordprogression for a verse. Then starting to sing some nonsense words over it to find a melody line.
The prechorus and chorus often just come by itself this way (but it might be mediocre, especially the chorus). And thats when I put it aside, and take it back in for more jamming after a day or a week. In my songwriting, the chorus MUST be the most catchy part. There are examples of songs that survives where the verse is the most catchy part though. Dido's "Thank you" is such an example, where Eminem actually ended up sampling the verse instead of the chorus, and used the verse as a chorus in his "Stan" (Great tune/lyrics btw)
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Finding a rythm pattern and then adding some bass. Often a 4 chord progression.
---------------------
To this date, I have never started with the chorus directly, but I plan to try that in the near future.

Keep it up.
 
Aaron Cheney said:
Sweetnighter:

What kind of songs do you want to write? WHat are your songwriting goals? Answering these two questions for us might yeild more specific advice.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the help everybody

Well, I'm looking to write some jazz/rock with electronic instrumentation... lots of bass, synth, and synth percussion, with some horns and vocals. In terms of song structure, I'm looking to write stuff thats progressive... I really like bands like Rush and Yes, especially big songs with complex structures (Close to the Edge and Xanadu, for those who know the groups). I'd also like to try writing in varying time signatures, not solely 4/4.

So from what I understand, you're not actually putting pen to paper in this process? Or do you write the whole song out note for note from beginning to end?
 
Sweetnighter said:
So from what I understand, you're not actually putting pen to paper in this process? Or do you write the whole song out note for note from beginning to end?
Click to expand...
I can't read or write music. I compose the music and write down the lyric (sometimes with chord markings).
 
Sweetnighter said:
So from what I understand, you're not actually putting pen to paper in this process? Or do you write the whole song out note for note from beginning to end?
Click to expand...

Pen and paper! But how would you forget them then!

I'm the same as CheekyMonkey I write down the lyrics sometimes with chord markings...
 
:confused: I typically sing into a minicassette dictation machine while driving alone in the car. I usually just record the chorus/hook. Then at home I listen to them at some distance in the future and see if a storyline comes. Then I throw the tape back into the pile. I have dozens of them and never know what year tape I am going to pick up. The ideas always seem fresh that way. Hope this helps, Dave. :D
 
Nice to hear some acoustic music on here Dave... I listened to your previews on cdbaby... I quite liked them... my favorite was Maggie... keep them coming... and post them in the mixing clinic
 
I mostly compose on my own so I carry a digital dictaphone with me at all times. Generally I hum ideas into it when I am in the park or just stepping out of the shower or in the middle of the night or whatever and then lay them down properly later in the Studio. For me this separates the writing and recording process quite nicely and stops me from staring at blank screens all day waiting for something to happen (I hate that). Further down the line I bung the completed track onto CD and play it in the car to finalise the lyrics, singing along to the CD whilst recording into the dictaphone. I've also been known to stop whilst out cycling and hum things into it!

If I am collaborating though it tends to be different. We'll usually just bounce ideas off of each other until something takes shape and then set about recording it into Logic.
 
I start with a drum beat on my drum machine sometimes, and come up with a chord progression that turns into a song. Sometimes I will get a melody in my head, and will work that out. Sometimes I hear things or see things written down that give me ideas. I think somebody already mentioned, everyone is different. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to compose your songs.
 
Hmm…I’ll play. It sounds like you might be writing for a different market than I am so it may not be of much help. Plus there is no “right way to do it” ;).

I usually start with an idea. This is in the form of a hook or the premise of a song. I try to figure out what I want to communicate.

Then I figure out how I want to communicate it. I even go as far as having a template where I can map out all sorts of things including the story line and when in the song I want things to happen. This may include writing out the story in prose format. It’s actually a pretty cool tool and pretty in depth. I don’t always use this template. Sometimes I just start writing when an idea just needs to come out. But I do use it often to “build” the story line effectively. I will often know at this point, before I’ve even come up with many lines what I want the structure of the song to be and sometimes even a thought about the rhyme scheme. Of course all of these elements can change as the song takes shape :D.

Then I’ll start some free association type stuff. I may take one of the main words from the hook or premise of the song and start thinking about it and start building a word or phrase palate. I used to do this by hand, but recently purchased software that I am finding quite intriguing in this process as it helps me gather this stuff quicker. I can find phrases, rhymed phrases, rhymed words, synonyms, definitions, etc all in one place and collect them conveniently. It’s the same thing I did manually, but a lot less paper and eraser :D. Then I’ll move on to some of the prose and maybe pick out some other key words to do this with.

Usually by this time a LOT of ideas are flowing and I’ve stared writing some parts of the lyric. I usually try to write the chorus first, but that doesn’t always work. But the chorus is very important as that is where the main point of the song needs to be driven home. After the chorus I try to write the opening line. This may be the MOST important line of the song. For my purposes, if I don’t catch a publisher (hopefully some day a radio listener ;)) there, they could very well shut it off. It has to make them want to listen further.

Then I will often try to write the one or two lines that lead into the chorus in each verse or bridge as they are the next most important lines in the song. I use the story I created above in my template to figure out how I wan to lead into the chorus from any given verse/bridge.

After that I flesh it out with the rest of the lyric trying to use each precious little space to support the song and increase the emotional/visual impact of the song. This is where the word & phrase palate above come in handy. You can’t just pick anything and stick it in there, but very often the stuff I collected above will at least lead me to think about how to say something the right way.

Oh and while all of this is going on, usually the melody and arrangement is being created in my head simultaneously. As the natural rhythm/meter of the words starts to take shape usually a melody will start to play in my head. Again, it may not be the final melody that gets recorded, but it works as a great guide for the remainder of the writing. Plus it helps keep the meter of the lyric consistent.

After all of that I’ll let it lie for a while and look at it again later and very likely something will be rewritten. Some lyric won’t strike me right. The melody may be able to be improved. Whatever. Or I may post it for a critique in a spot where the critiquers are folks who are aiming at (or gotten to) the same target as I am aiming for or play it for a mentor or if I’m lucky a publisher. I also get a different sort of feedback by playing the songs out at writers’ rounds in Nashville. All of the feedback is valuable (whether I make changes from it or not).

Of course sometimes I’ll just come up with a cool riff on the guitar and work around that. Or sometimes I just regurgitate what comes out of my head and it turns out well. Not often, but it happens. Or sometimes a song will change 180 degrees during the write. It all happens!!! That’ what’s so fun about it.

But that’s just me.

:D
 
Yo Sweetnighter...

First of all, i would say if your looking for answers to help kick start for songwriting career i would say the best way to learn songwriting is to just write. Listen and soak up all the music u can and just try and write something. Anything. Weed your head garden and wait for the bloom to come! (how poetic is that :P)

As for me im usually listening to something in the top 10 and think, i wanna do that and toy with ideas, or il come up with a random line out of nowhere and formulate it in my head into part of a song. Sometimes i'll deliberately set out to write something in the style of XXX... Sometimes you can just be fooling around with your guitar and something will hit you between the eyes and your suddenly in a rush for paper and a pen. Sometimes il have a chord sequence/melody/line/theme wich i will scribble down and mentally file away and that might pop up and go great with a beat i happen to be working on 6 months later.

I find songwriting not as an craft to learn but an artform of tuning in to that hidden frequency where the creative juices flow. And be able to let it out when it needs to and not be afraid to experiment with it. Thats it in a nutshell for me - its all about tuning my personal antenna to where the songs 'yet to be written' are. If you get a fuzzy receptiont then you might have to tweak the picture though!
 
hey,

just a bit of background... i'm normally writing for a six-piece indie/rock thing i formed/play guitar in.

i generally write the lyrics for a song first actually... often still with some structure or form, but nothing very strict.

then i write some melody/chord/harmony ideas on guitar or piano to the lyrics.

then i rewrite the lyrics to make them fit to the music... then rewrite the music to fit with the new lyrics :D

after a while i tend to find something that i really hate and wish i'd never written and can't believe i've wasted all this time on - but i don't think i've met a songwriter yet who actually likes anything they've written :p

but actually, when i'm writing jazz (mainly for school project compositions...) I end up working out some themes on the piano, and then actually writing out a full score with everything in terms of dynamics, articulation etctranscribed including the drum and bass parts (which are sometimes not written out, or are just given chord structures to work with.)

either ways good for me, but i wouldn't ever use one way of writing for the other style... and obviously you might hate them!

just have a go at writing a song. and then another go... and another one...

:D

Andy
 
Handsome Al said:
Nice to hear some acoustic music on here Dave... I listened to your previews on cdbaby... I quite liked them... my favorite was Maggie... keep them coming... and post them in the mixing clinic
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OK. I'm fairly new to the forum and don't want to offend anyone. Thanks for the very nice words. "Maggie" has helped me sell many copies of the album across the bandstand. Thanks again, Dave. :D :D
 
Nice tune

Handsome Al said:
Nice to hear some acoustic music on here Dave... I listened to your previews on cdbaby... I quite liked them... my favorite was Maggie... keep them coming... and post them in the mixing clinic
Click to expand...

Thanks again. I just hit your site and listened to After the Prozac. Nice sound and quite clever. Keep up the good work, Dave. ;) ;)
 
Most all of the songs I've written, I've done so as if I were compossing a poem, but listening to the tune in my mind as I'm writing out the lyrics. Once I've written the lyrics, then I actually sit down with my guitar, and proceed to finding the tune I'd been hearing in my mind, as I was writing. When I'm working on lyrics, I've managed to find both phrases and complete lines within the poetry I've also written over the years. Sometimes, a particular phrase of poetry will catch me just right, and a song will develop from that, but usually it's the "write the lyrics first, then create the music" that works for me.

I've had one instance, several years ago, where I was in the process of composing a poem, when for some weird reason the beat of the lines caught my attention. I read through what I'd done, thus far, then got my guitar and started strumming a surf guitar instrumental that I'd been noodling with for several years. Low and behold, I found that I had managed to write lyrics to my surf guitar instrumental! Luckily, since it seems that I create my songs "bass ackward," lyrics then music instead of music then lyrics, I've managed to come up with alternate music for those lyrics, thus leaving my surf guitar instrumental an instrumental.

Matt
 
Sweetnighter said:
Well, I'm looking to write some jazz/rock with electronic instrumentation... lots of bass, synth, and synth percussion, with some horns and vocals.
Click to expand...

So something along the lines of Cinematic Orchestra? You should have a listen to a guy from around where I live, www.sirhandsomerecords.com . Weird guy, sounds nothing like his talking voice. One-man writing, synthy stuff. Live he uses a 2-octave 19080s Casio Keyboard through a Boss Distortion pedal for guitar (DS-1 maybe?). Then he has drum loops, another g-tarist, a sequencer-dude, and a bass player. Pretty cool And it goes over well live.

And he's not that hard to talk to. Give him a shout. He also has samples on his website.
 
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