somebody tell me about stereo enhancement plug-ins

[Hi_Flyer]

I've searched the archives a bit, the general consensus seems to be these are like "cheating"... But I've been playing with the "stage" preset on Voxengo Stereo Touch and I'm pretty floored by how its improved a mix I've been working on. I put it on the guitar and the drum overhead, and it has created some space for the vox and snare to peak through. Overall it just seems to make the mix, I dunno, BIGGER-SOUNDING, or something.

So I'm not sure what my question is exactly, I guess in part I wanna know more about what these plug-ins do, especially if its true that I should try to create my own stereo image instead of using a "magic plug-in". I know there is some very short delay, possibly different on the L & R sides... also some reverb. What exactly is "envelope filtering" and is this related?

Most of the stuff I'm messing around with right now, is live recordings of either my band, or friend's bands and the problem I run into is that the guitar sounds small... My initial impression of this plug-in is that this is just what that instrument needed. I've read the phrase "if it sounds good, it is good" on this board many times. So what's wrong with these plug-ins?

Is it wrong to think of like this... I can try to create my own stereo image with delay & reverb, but it may not end up sounding as big & full as using this plug-in, so what's wrong with using it until I get better?

 

[giraffe]

my limited understanding of these effects is that they effect phase correlations between the L and R channels, providing the perception of a larger stereo image.
i think (and seriously, i'm not sure about that)

like many "magic" plugging it is very easy to overuse and the problems it can create are sometimes easy to over look.

1) try your best to get the depth of field you want in the recording process
includingpanning, recording in stereo, using reverb, and delays
2) be tasteful with it, use at any point a little *less* than you want just to
be safe.

 

[giraffe]

Is it wrong to think of like this... I can try to create my own stereo image with delay & reverb, but it may not end up sounding as big & full as using this plug-in

if you figure out how, you'll be a better engineer

 

[Hi_Flyer]

like many "magic" plugging it is very easy to overuse and the problems it can create are sometimes easy to over look.

could you (or anybody else) be more more specific about these problems? Are you talking about weird out of phase stuff? Like instruments disappearing when you sum to mono? But wouldn't this happen to many pro recordings too?

1) try your best to get the depth of field you want in the recording process
includingpanning, recording in stereo, using reverb, and delays

One of the reasons I'm messing with this stuff right now is that I'm mixing some live stuff that my band recorded, only eight tracks total, one track of guitar. We didn't have many options as far as stereo recording of the instruments. So how do I spread out this one guitar track? How do I make it sound "bigger"?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Giraffe is basically correct in that most boxes and algorithms that play with the sound field (expanding it, making it '"3-D", etc) do so by playing with delay and phase effects.

"If it sounds good, do it" is excellent advice, but I'd throw in two potential "gotchas" in this situation...

First, If it "sounds good" where? Stereo expansion tricks that are set to sound great on stereo speakers don't always sound good in headhones, earbuds, car stereos or home stereos with matrixed rear speakers. Even on good ol' two-channel stereo systems, the expanded field often collapses once you've moved outside the width of the speakers themselves. How much or how quickly depends on the quality and applictaion of the effect.

Second, and in my feeble mind even more important, is that the more you use such processing tricks as a crutch to fix your mixes "until you get better", the longer it will take you to actually get better and do a great mix without one.

What would you do if you didn't have access to an expander? You'd learn just how to do just fine without it, and you'd learn pretty quickly. Soon enough you'd be making mixes that sound better on all systems at all times than anything you made after becoming dependant on the expander.

Like any other processing instrument, they work great when one learns where and when to use them. But the only way to learn where and when to use them is to learn how to make the best possible product without them. Then you'll know when you're in a "Man, if I had an expander to throw in on that track, it would push my mix over the top and really sound good" situation and when you're in an "OK, I know an expander might 'quick fix' this problem, but the overall results would be much better if I just applied this technique I learned instead" situation.

Neato gear should be used only to enhance good engineering technique, never to replace it.

G.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

One of the reasons I'm messing with this stuff right now is that I'm mixing some live stuff that my band recorded, only eight tracks total, one track of guitar. We didn't have many options as far as stereo recording of the instruments. So how do I spread out this one guitar track? How do I make it sound "bigger"?

One trick is to copy a duplicate of your guitar track to another track and apply reverb to it. Drop the volume a few dBs from what the main guitar track is set at. Then if if you have your guitar panned, say for example, -20, then pan the reverbed copy track to +20 or more to throw it over to the other side.

There are other techiques for "bigness", but since it sounds like you're looking for something in a "stereo" bigness vein, this is a good place to start.

G.

 

[Hi_Flyer]

I'mnot sure I'm following... so the end result would be that the dry guitar track is off to one side, and a heavier reverb track is off to the other?

what about when you listen to this on earbuds, earphones or home stereos?I'm assuming the field wouldn't "collapse" in the same way...

 

[Bonz]

Giraffe is basically correct in that most boxes and algorithms that play with the sound field (expanding it, making it '"3-D", etc) do so by playing with delay and phase effects.

"If it sounds good, do it" is excellent advice, but I'd throw in two potential "gotchas" in this situation...

First, If it "sounds good" where? Stereo expansion tricks that are set to sound great on stereo speakers don't always sound good in headhones, earbuds, car stereos or home stereos with matrixed rear speakers. Even on good ol' two-channel stereo systems, the expanded field often collapses once you've moved outside the width of the speakers themselves. How much or how quickly depends on the quality and applictaion of the effect.

Second, and in my feeble mind even more important, is that the more you use such processing tricks as a crutch to fix your mixes "until you get better", the longer it will take you to actually get better and do a great mix without one.

What would you do if you didn't have access to an expander? You'd learn just how to do just fine without it, and you'd learn pretty quickly. Soon enough you'd be making mixes that sound better on all systems at all times than anything you made after becoming dependant on the expander.

Like any other processing instrument, they work great when one learns where and when to use them. But the only way to learn where and when to use them is to learn how to make the best possible product without them. Then you'll know when you're in a "Man, if I had an expander to throw in on that track, it would push my mix over the top and really sound good" situation and when you're in an "OK, I know an expander might 'quick fix' this problem, but the overall results would be much better if I just applied this technique I learned instead" situation.

Neato gear should be used only to enhance good engineering technique, never to replace it.

G.

Nothing to add other than .. awesome response and info to think about.
Not sure why your Rep Points are so low but I added to them if that means a damn thing ...

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'mnot sure I'm following... so the end result would be that the dry guitar track is off to one side, and a heavier reverb track is off to the other?

what about when you listen to this on earbuds, earphones or home stereos?I'm assuming the field wouldn't "collapse" in the same way...

No it won't collapse the same way. The thing with expanders is that they are using signal processing "tricks" using delays and phase manipulation to make the stereo image appear wider than it physically is. These manipulation tricks don't translate well to many different playback speaker configurations and types. Sometimes they work, other times they don't, depending upon the environment.

Using a reverb, while still technically an "electronic trick", is much more straightforward in that it's not trying to make the playback system sound bigger than it actually is.

Also, notice I'm not saying to have one signal hard right and the other hard left or to have them both at equal volumes. You could do those things if you wish, but 9 times out of 10 it will suit the musid better not to be that extreme. What I'm describing is this: let's say - just as an example - that you curently have your guitar panned about 50% left (halfway between center and hard left.) If you leave that there and put the reverbed track about 50% right, at a lower volume than the dry track on the left, you'll wind up with a "bigger" guitar sound that still is located at 50% left, but brings some of the "room" with it on the right.

Because you are not trying to artifically expand the entire image but are rather just adding the simulated sound of a naturally reverberating room to a normal channel position, this will work to make the guitar sound "bigger" on all stereo and mono systems, on-axis and off.

There are other ways of doing the reverb; there are stereo reverb effects, different formulas for the panning, etc., many of them just as valid as what I describe, but this is a quick, easy and effective way to do it and to get used to before going on to more sophisticated methods. And it's a method that even the most experienced engineers still use with frequency.

G.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Nothing to add other than .. awesome response and info to think about.
Not sure why your Rep Points are so low but I added to them if that means a damn thing ...

Bonz, thank you, that is very kind

The reason my rep points are so low is because I don't go to some of the side forums on this board and join in on rep point circle jerks where members just gather to give points to each other for no reason than to build their rep points artificially, which is what most (not all, but most) people here who have enough chicklets for Halloween and enough points for an Arena Football League season do to get them that high.

In other words, positive rep point scores have about as much value on this forum as old Iraqi Dinars do at a currency exchange.

But thanks anyway. I may not have many points, but at least they're all earned.

G.

 

[giraffe]

First, If it "sounds good" where? Stereo expansion tricks that are set to sound great on stereo speakers don't always sound good in headhones, earbuds, car stereos or home stereos with matrixed rear speakers.

ever listen to anything mixed with a stereo enhanser on *wide* in a pair of headphones........ it makes me feel like like i'm falling to one side, it drives me nuts.

actually, i don't usually record anything in ms because i don't like the way it sounds in headphones eithor.

ohhhhhhhhhhhh. (hi flyer)
record you're (drum) overs in ms, you'll probably like that, it sounds huge.

(off to the big thread with ye)

 

[giraffe]

Nothing to add other than .. awesome response and info to think about.
Not sure why your Rep Points are so low but I added to them if that means a damn thing ...

make no mistake, glen gets much respect around here.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

make no mistake, glen gets much respect around here.

No matter how hard I try otherwise.



G.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Not sure why your Rep Points are so low but I added to them if that means a damn thing ...

Glen doesn't need anyone to vouch for him (his threads speak for themselves!), but the guy definitely knows his stuff!!

 

[Hi_Flyer]

ever listen to anything mixed with a stereo enhanser on *wide* in a pair of headphones........ it makes me feel like like i'm falling to one side, it drives me nuts.

actually, i don't usually record anything in ms because i don't like the way it sounds in headphones eithor.

ohhhhhhhhhhhh. (hi flyer)
record you're (drum) overs in ms, you'll probably like that, it sounds huge.

(off to the big thread with ye)

what is "ms"?

I've actually listened to this mix on several different systems, and it doesn't sound bad, at least to my ears. I've even listened on a car stereo & headphones. and I'll try to post a clip...

by the way, I'm also a big fan of southside glen's posts. can't say that I pay much attention to the rep points though, but to show appreciation, I just added to southside glen's. thanks to all for the advice.

 

[reshp1]

what is "ms"?

I've actually listened to this mix on several different systems, and it doesn't sound bad, at least to my ears. I've even listened on a car stereo & headphones. and I'll try to post a clip...

by the way, I'm also a big fan of southside glen's posts. can't say that I pay much attention to the rep points though, but to show appreciation, I just added to southside glen's. thanks to all for the advice.

It's a way to record in stereo. MS stands for Middle-Side. You use a cardiod mic for the "middle" mic, and a figure eight mic placed coincidentally and turned 90 degrees for the "side" mic. Here's a good link on how it works
http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/ms_stereo.htm

 

[masteringhouse]

Bonz, thank you, that is very kind

The reason my rep points are so low is because I don't go to some of the side forums on this board and join in on rep point circle jerks where members just gather to give points to each other for no reason than to build their rep points artificially, which is what most (not all, but most) people here who have enough chicklets for Halloween and enough points for an Arena Football League season do to get them that high.

In other words, positive rep point scores have about as much value on this forum as old Iraqi Dinars do at a currency exchange.

But thanks anyway. I may not have many points, but at least they're all earned.

G.

LOL

Like this one?

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=147346

In addition to the reverb trick, a pitchshifter with a delay can come in handy too. The effect is to try to simulate ADT (artificial double tracking). But I would never do this to an entire mix, just the individual track.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

LOL

Like this one?

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=147346

Exactly.

I'm somewhat relieved, I thought you were going to bring up a thread where I pulled a real dunce cap out of my ass, like when I didn't know that newer BetacamSP machines played smaller Betamax-sized tapes and insisted otherwise, or the more recent one where I didn't even know how to pull up a mixer screen on my own software.

All this talk in this thread about my points level is even more embarassing than those posts were....welll...almost as embarassing.

Especially when I bow to a man like Tom here who could run circles around me without breaking a sweat, and he has even less Dinars than I do.

Let's drop this part of the thread and get back to talking about bigness of sound and not bigness of rep points or other fake phallic symbols.

And give Tom a few points while youre at it.

G.

 

[masteringhouse]

And give Tom a few points while youre at it.

G.

Shucks G, my face is red.

No points for me please. I'm trying to get less than Brad Blackwood

 

[giraffe]

Shucks G, my face is red.

No points for me please. I'm trying to get less than Brad Blackwood

hehehehehe

he doesn't represent proppa like.