Soloing while Mixing

[philbagg]

Discuss...










Seriously though, I understand soloing tracks while mixing if you're doing some corrective surgery like removing unwanted frequencies etc., but do any of you solo tracks that you're applying effects to? If so, why?

I used to do it when I first started, now I've broken the habits because I learned that it's best to hear it within the mix. I might do a double-check with the solo button once I'm fairly happy but that's it.

I just don't understand. I see experienced engineers solo tracks when they're applying compression, reverb etc., even though the track they're affecting isn't "solo" at all throughout the song. So whats the method to the madness?

 

[suprstar]

i solo tracks all the time. I wanna know what my bass sounds like, how much reverb or delay is on a track, if the vox sound good together, etc.. It's easier to hear what 1 track sounds like if you dont have 13 other tracks potentially covering up problems.

 

[philbagg]

But if the other tracks stop the problem from being heard, then there isn't really a problem.

 

[suprstar]

yeah well true, but I'm a perfectionist.

 

[dobro]

I solo stuff before and during the mix. Before, in order to hear what's there and get rid of noise and stuff. During, as part of my education - I want to know what the thing sounds like even before I listen to it in the mix.

When I'm cooking, I'll taste an ingredient or a spice before I add it to the dish. It's fun, it's educational. Before and after sort of thing. Peekaboo.

 

[RD423]

I solo all the time, especially when I'm adding reverb, because when I want the reverb 2 be heard in the mix ill go back and forth by soloing and unsoloing while playing it 2 make sure it sounds good with everything else as well as soloing. Same thing when adding any plug ins. Because I listen to how it sounds without the effect so then once I add the effect I make sure it sounds like it does in my head then I listen 2 it in the mix.

And just because u can't hear a problem in the overall mix doesn't mean that a problem doesn't exist.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

And just because u can't hear a problem in the overall mix doesn't mean that a problem doesn't exist.

This is the key to understanding most of soloing, IMHO.

It's true you can't judge whether a track sounds right unless/until it's in the mix, but sometimes the best way to hear and fix technical faults in a track is to solo it.

Does it need gating or noise reduction? Is that clip point in the mix because of that track alone or a summing of tracks that gets too hot? does that snare disappear in the fourth measure because it simply disapears in the recording or is it because of some kind of maksing effect in the mix? And a similar question about the guitar; is the guitar just weak there or is it phasing against the other guitar badly at that point? And so on.

G.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Soloing is useful when comping several takes, cutting "end of track" chatter/noise, finding delay times, finding compressor attack times...stuff like that.

Soloing is also useful when simply listening to the character of a track while deciding what to do with it.

But I do not make any mix changes while soloed. It just doesn't make sense. For example:

While I solo a track I find the exact correct delay time to pulse with the song tempo or the exact millisecond that the snare transient makes it through the compressor unharmed. That's stuff you want to know for sure. But does this mix WANT the "correct" delay time and compressor attack? No way of knowing with a solo, so no settings are make until all tracks are playing.

EQ makes no sense at all while soloed. You might have a live recording of a band with 4 singers. You solo the vocal tracks and hear a ton of guitars and bass hanging out in the low frequencies. While soloed, you can find the exact value for a high-pass filter that removes as much bass as possible while leaving the vocals unaltered. Great. Again, that is important stuff to know. Do you need to make that cut? Will it actually be harmful to cut that stuff? Maybe you do want a cut, but for some reason not at that frequency. Can't possibly know until you remove the solo.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

This is the key to understanding most of soloing, IMHO.

It's true you can't judge whether a track sounds right unless/until it's in the mix, but sometimes the best way to hear and fix technical faults in a track is to solo it.

Does it need gating or noise reduction? Is that clip point in the mix because of that track alone or a summing of tracks that gets too hot? does that snare disappear in the fourth measure because it simply disapears in the recording or is it because of some kind of maksing effect in the mix? And a similar question about the guitar; is the guitar just weak there or is it phasing against the other guitar badly at that point? And so on.

G.

I have to agree this is the main point of the solo button. You notice a fault with the mix. The nature of the fault is not obvious. You use the solos to identify the fault with certainty.

Then you turn the solo off and fix the fault.

 

[philbagg]

This is the key to understanding most of soloing, IMHO.

It's true you can't judge whether a track sounds right unless/until it's in the mix, but sometimes the best way to hear and fix technical faults in a track is to solo it.

Does it need gating or noise reduction? Is that clip point in the mix because of that track alone or a summing of tracks that gets too hot? does that snare disappear in the fourth measure because it simply disapears in the recording or is it because of some kind of maksing effect in the mix? And a similar question about the guitar; is the guitar just weak there or is it phasing against the other guitar badly at that point? And so on.

G.

This is how I would use it. But I have to agree, EQ doesn't make much sense while soloed unless it's corrective EQ (last resort). Seeing people EQing completely in solo is part of the reason I posted.

Phil

 

[legionserial]

Of course, all these good practices go out the window if you are deliberately manipulating a track such that you are actually completely changing the sound. But that's kind of a seperate thing from mixing.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Of course, all these good practices go out the window if you are deliberately manipulating a track such that you are actually completely changing the sound.

Why? If I drastically alter the sound it's not like that track no longer "lives" with the rest of the mix. I could bend a sound from here to there but it is still meaningless without the context of the other instruments.

Creating a new sound through EQ is very much like laying down a new part durring the tracking/overdubbing process. You wouldn't set your guitar and amp knobs without the other tracks playing, right? So why would you create any new sound without the other tracks playing?




And I really don't get this business with soloing for corrective EQ. How can you know it is correct if the rest of the song isn't playing? I know we say this enough to make everybody sick, but it really doesn't matter what tracks sound like on their own.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Seeing people EQing completely in solo is part of the reason I posted.

Well, that may be one of those "the more experience one has, the more they can flaunt 'the rules'" things.

I know I don't always return the the mix before I make some EQ adjustments to the track. Sometimes, after one has some modicum of experience under their belt and has a pretty seasoned ear, they pretty much know what has to be done to a track without having to return to the mix, and just to save time and steps they'll just do it while there there in solo.

But that's not something I'd advocate to a newb, and it's not something I do unless I'm pretty sure of what I'm doing. Because if when you return to the mix and it still doesn't sound right - or at least better - you still gotta EQ in the mix anyway, and you've just wasted time with the EQing in solo, perhaps making it no net better in the process.

I know this will be taken the wrong way by many, and I swear I have no elitist motivations here, but it's one of those things I think where when one no longer has to ask whether it's OK to EQ in solo, that it's probably OK to do so.

---

EDIT: I think it's falls into the same kind of category as the whole "Do I compress a track on the way in while recording or wait until mixing to compress" question that comes up here so often.

The default answer given here almost always is, "It's better to wait until mixing so you have a clean slate to work from and aren't stuck with possibly bad compression that you can't undo." Which is an excellent answer for a newb asking the question.

Then almost invariably someone comes in and says, "But so-and-so expert engineer always compresses on the way in and doesn't wait for mixing. If that's good enough for him, it's damn sure good enough for me."

The difference is that the expert engineer is not the one asking the question. He's already jumped through the hoops enough times where he pretty much knows exactly what he's going to have to do. He doesn't need to wait until mixing because he knows he's not going to get it that wrong - if wrong at all - on the way in. But the newb who is still asking the question(s) doesn't yet have that level of experience, so for him, the better answer is to wait until mixing when you can always undo it and try something else.

There's a similar thing with what an engineer can/cannot do to a soloed track versus waiting to hear how the mix affect it. The more experience one has, the more they can rely upon it and the less they need to take the cautious route.

G.

 

[MCI2424]

I have to agree this is the main point of the solo button. You notice a fault with the mix. The nature of the fault is not obvious. You use the solos to identify the fault with certainty.

Then you turn the solo off and fix the fault.

I usually have all the solo buttons "ON" when I mix. That way I can hear everything at once. I strive for efficiency.

 

[BrentDomann]

I think EQing in solo can be very advantageous. If you're EQing out the low end in a guitar to allow some space for the bass, then solo the guitar. It sometimes is possible to further raise the cutoff for your low-cut on the guitar to create more space in the mix; after the point at which the guitar isn't stepping on the bass' toes, you might not have information from the rest of the mix sufficient to help you with that.

Since EQing is relative, you might have to deal with limitations. That is, you might have to make more space than the mix requires because you expect to add something later. The only way to give a "best guess" is to solo and cut all the fat, not just enough fat for the mix to sit nicely.

 

[philbagg]

I usually have all the solo buttons "ON" when I mix. That way I can hear everything at once. I srive for efficiency.

Maybe your post was a little misleading, but what's the point on having all the solos on in mixing? Is that not the same as having them all off?

Correct me if I'm wrong but that just seems like a waste of time.

 

[RAMI]

Maybe your post was a little misleading, but what's the point on having all the solos on in mixing? Is that not the same as having them all off?

Correct me if I'm wrong but that just seems like a waste of time.

It's called "humor" Phil. He didn't put a smiley, but it was funny nonetheless.

 

[Tim Gillett]

Yeah it's a bit like the way some people started to use the consumer graphic EQ's when they came out on home and car stereos about 30 years ago.

There was disagreement as to the best way to use the graphic EQ with all those sliders.


Some people altered the graphic sliders to give most artistic looking wave pattern with the knobs on the faceplate.

But other more educated folk knew the real reason for the graphic was to do with getting the best the sound. You pushed ALL the faders right up to max. That way EVERYTHING came out sounding better.

No smiley here either.

 

[legionserial]

You wouldn't set your guitar and amp knobs without the other tracks playing, right?

Not too sure about that. As recording isn't the be all and end all of playing guitar, the tone I look for is independant to the recording process. By the time I start recording, I've already decided on my guitar tone long before. The job is to capture the sound effectively. That's where the mic placement and some minor amp EQ comes in. The core sound was still created independantly of the recording process.

I wasn't talking soley about shaping with EQ anyway. I was thinking more in the area of FX. Basically, I believe that for a lot of core sounds, you need a starting point before the context of the mix comes into play. If you're going to create an entirely new sound, you're going to need to hear it soloed at some point.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Not too sure about that. As recording isn't the be all and end all of playing guitar, the tone I look for is independant to the recording process. By the time I start recording, I've already decided on my guitar tone long before. The job is to capture the sound effectively. That's where the mic placement and some minor amp EQ comes in. The core sound was still created independantly of the recording process.

I guess I don't consider mic placement and minor amp EQ to be "minor". *shrug*

I believe that for a lot of core sounds, you need a starting point before the context of the mix comes into play. If you're going to create an entirely new sound, you're going to need to hear it soloed at some point.

But we are talking about soloing while mixing. The core sounds should be nailed down way before tracking even begins. There are always exceptions, so yes there can be a situation where you are making a new core sound at the mix stage... But that has to be rare.

Looks like we have a conflict of writer/player thinking Vs engineer/producer thinking. I'm gonna' guess you write and play. I am a weak writer and performer, so my head rarely goes there. But I've got a heck of a mind for production and arrangement.

I can see a writer coming up with a new sound in a vacuum and then building around it. That never happens for me.

I always hit a project long after the writing is done. When I make a new sound, it comes to me because I hear a "need" while listening to the work-in-progress. Because the new sound only exists to fill a perceived need in the current song, you better bet I'm listening to the song while making the sound.