So.... You Think You Own a "Vintage Guitar", eh?

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Buck62

Buck62

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The process of "aging" guitars has now become so good that it's virtually impossible to tell a fake from the real thing.

Rumour has it that 50 to 70% of the so-called "vintage" guitars on Ebay are phony. After seeing the stellar work of the people who professionally age guitars, I don't doubt those numbers at all. In fact, they're probably a low estimate.

Case in point......

http://www.songsofjonathanwilson.com/hardware.htm

http://www.songsofjonathanwilson.com/GreenwichVillage.htm

It makes you wonder when pawn shops will get in on the scam... if they aren't already! :eek:




And now, Fender is going to do a perfect replica of Stevie Ray's infamous "Number One." Just look at all attention to the smallest detail....

http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAMM04/Content/Fender/PR/SRV-Tribute-Limited.html

Of course, Fender isn't doing this to scam anyone, but it gives you an idea of how far they've come in the past few years with the aging process.

It's pretty amazing, yet kind of scary. I'd hate to find out that one of MY guitars was a fake! I guess the bottom line is that you should NEVER buy a purported "vintage guitar" on Ebay. Always get verification on the authenticity of any old guitar you're thinking of purchasing. A matching beat-up old case and the original (yellowed) manual are pretty good signs that the guitar is an authentic, vintage axe. But who knows... they may start aging and faking those, too!
 
Buck62 said:
The process of "aging" guitars has now become so good that it's virtually impossible to tell a fake from the real thing.

Rumour has it that 50 to 70% of the so-called "vintage" guitars on Ebay are phony. After seeing the stellar work of the people who professionally age guitars, I don't doubt those numbers at all. In fact, they're probably a low estimate.

Case in point......

http://www.songsofjonathanwilson.com/hardware.htm

http://www.songsofjonathanwilson.com/GreenwichVillage.htm

It makes you wonder when pawn shops will get in on the scam... if they aren't already! :eek:




And now, Fender is going to do a perfect replica of Stevie Ray's infamous "Number One." Just look at all attention to the smallest detail....

http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAMM04/Content/Fender/PR/SRV-Tribute-Limited.html

Of course, Fender isn't doing this to scam anyone, but it gives you an idea of how far they've come in the past few years with the aging process.

It's pretty amazing, yet kind of scary. I'd hate to find out that one of MY guitars was a fake! I guess the bottom line is that you should NEVER buy a purported "vintage guitar" on Ebay. Always get verification on the authenticity of any old guitar you're thinking of purchasing. A matching beat-up old case and the original (yellowed) manual are pretty good signs that the guitar is an authentic, vintage axe. But who knows... they may start aging and faking those, too!
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Except for the fact that I can tell the real thing ONLY IN AGE. I cannot tell if the REAL old parts (like a fender) are the original guitar/bass. There are too many differences in each part of "vintage" and "re-created" parts. You have to know exactly what you are looking for in the individual parts to not get scammed.

Now, for those who build "vintage" guitars with authentic old parts, it is much harder to inpossible to tell.
 
I have long been convinced that the only way to have any confidence you are getting the real deal is to buy it from someone who has no idea of it's value, i.e. a grandma that found it in the attic.


Aaron
www.aaroncheney.com
 
It's funny - ya know.

I know my Tele is a '76 only because that's when I bought the damn thing (actually in '77, but who's counting). And my Martin is a '71 because their serial numbers are correct.
And both of them look like shit because they are old, not because someone has "aged" them.

It's a shame when people depend on serials and age to make a guitar worth something.
I've always played a guitar for what it does to me and for me, not for what it's worth or what it "could" be worth in the future.
And that's why it's a shame I'll never own a beautiful playing gold top or strat - I can't afford it, because someone has it hanging on their wall.

Fuckers.

M²
 
I'm certain that the only way we can really protect ourseves is to readjust our expectations. How about this - we buy our guitars because they're guitars and not because they're vintage anything?

Certainly I'd like a 40 year old D-28. Maybe even a pre-CBS Telecaster; I once had one that I ditched because it was such a mess. I could have kept it as an investment, I suppose, but I don't speculate in stuff that really counts. I might just as well go for a new version of the same thing, with a warranty, because I'll play it.

I'll never, never understand or condone the trading of musical instruments like so many museum relics for rich kids who can shell out six figures for nothing better than exclusivity. Let the ebay scammers at 'em.
 
Treeline said:
I'll never, never understand or condone the trading of musical instruments like so many museum relics for rich kids who can shell out six figures for nothing better than exclusivity. Let the ebay scammers at 'em.
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Damn right, man.

I've got a couple Bowmore's into me, and I'll put my Godin against anything the rich kids got.

For the money, I'd buy another.

But I'm still hanging on to my Martin and Tele :D
(They's my babies ...)
 
Oh, c'mon now guys.....

let them have their fun.

I've never bought into the whole vintage thing either, but it's a whole different mentalilty I think. Same with some high-end stuff. I know guys that trade their PRS with each other like bubble-gum cards, always looking for the coveted "pre-95 10 top" whatever, like it's a Joe Namath rookie...


Aaron
www.aaroncheney.com
 
eyeslikefire said:
Wow!!!

Great post Buck!
Click to expand...

Thank you... :) ...and I'm glad it provoked some intelligent discussion.

That being said, have you guys seen this yet?....

http://www.gibson.com/products/gibson/xfactor/FirebirdStudio.html


Supposedly, it's going to be an "affordable" alternative to the higher-end (read: 'over-priced') Gibson Firebird. I'm guessing it will be in the $600 to $700 range. I have an Epi Thunderbird IV Reverse Bass and I really like it alot. I've always loved the way Firebird's play and their tone.

Looks like I may have to shift some funds, sell some old gear, and make some room for another new gee-tar! :D:D
 
Take it to a good guitar shop. Trust me, WE can tell the difference between an "aged" guitar and a real vintage guitar. And yes, right now I (or more accurately, we at the shop) own a 1908 Martin 0-21, a 1911 Benson Parlor guitar, and another turn of last century Martin single O. Mind you, the two Martins are not in playing condition right now, and we need to do significant repairs on them (who in the FUCK thought it was a good idea to put rhinestones on guitars), including neck resets, new bridges, new peghead overlays (fucking rhinestones) a few top and back cracks, one new side (due to a nasty side crack) and some french polishing to clean up the finish. The Benson is great, now that the work is done. Cool guitar.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
Take it to a good guitar shop. Trust me, WE can tell the difference between an "aged" guitar and a real vintage guitar. And yes, right now I (or more accurately, we at the shop) own a 1908 Martin 0-21, a 1911 Benson Parlor guitar, and another turn of last century Martin single O. Mind you, the two Martins are not in playing condition right now, and we need to do significant repairs on them (who in the FUCK thought it was a good idea to put rhinestones on guitars), including neck resets, new bridges, new peghead overlays (fucking rhinestones) a few top and back cracks, one new side (due to a nasty side crack) and some french polishing to clean up the finish. The Benson is great, now that the work is done. Cool guitar.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Click to expand...


Yeah. I have seen more faked Fenders in more guitar shops than you could imagine. Now, either these people are really stupid, or these people are guilty of fraud. I have YET to come across the real thing!!!. I guess a "good" guitar shop is rather rare.
 
acorec said:
Now, either these people are really stupid, or these people are guilty of fraud.
Click to expand...


You’re looking in the wrong shops. That never happens in a reputable shop. Our business is built on honesty, period. We do not, EVER, try to pull that shit. Our reputation is our primary form of advertising, through word of mouth. It is impossible for us to be anything but scrupulously honest, because one unhappy customer will wipe out the benefit of one hundred happy customers. I don't know where you live, but up here, I can think immediately of six great, honest shops. One of them is a great vintage shop. I would be willing to recommend them to any customer in my shop as a reliable and trustworthy place to buy vintage gear.

You just need to find the right place, and the right people. Guitar Center is not one of the right places, and they have almost none of the right people. As for nationally known shops, Gruhn's is good (even if George is some times a prick), as is Mandolin Brothers, and for acoustic stuff you will never be treated badly or misled by the folks at Gryphon (Frank Ford's views on restoration ethics should be required reading for anyone working in a repair shop. In fact, he did a clinic at last years Healdsburg festival on just that subject.)

There are other great shops, and I have probably not heard of even half of them. You just need to ask the professional guitar players in your area. At least some of them will know where to go.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Re: RHINESTONES!

Treeline said:
My Gawd...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D
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It seems to have been quite the trend at one point, because we see two or three potentially really nice guitars a year that have been similarly scared. They are sort of half inlayed in the peghead overlays, bridges, and soundhole rosettes. The most depressing one I have seen, by far, is the Gibson Style "O" harp guitar we have in the shop right now. It would be sad on any style "O", but particularly on this one, which is left handed. It is probably the only one ever made, and its value is just about impossible to calculate, even with the rhinestones. It is just depressing.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
There is a shop in Concord North Carolina called Mullis Music. The owner of the shop, Randy Mullis, has an exact replica of Stevie's #1. He has had it for at least two years now.

He first showed it in public a the Queen City Guitar show in 2002.

There were internet rummors about it for a month or so after the show.

Randy told me the guitar was buit by someone on a Nascar team who lives/works in the area.

He will most likely have it displayed at the B3 Vintage Guitar show in Spatanburg, South Carolina in Febuary.

And as for these vintage fakes.....I ran across one at a show last year. It was a fake '57 Strat in lake placid blue. It looked real. Very detailed just like the photos posted above, but it just didn't "feel" right. I can describe it but If you have ever held a REAl 50's Strat it's like they have some mystical inner hammonic ressonance or Chi. The fake didn't have it.

It's like all of these hot rod builders....they find a replica '40 Ford frame and use fiberglass panels and bodies drop in after market small block Chevies paint it like the guys did in the 50's to make it look old school and try to call it a '40 Ford.

But what can you do. It's easy to be fooled. The best chance you have in protecting yourself from a scam guitar is to have desk piled with books and charts so you can match pot codes and neck plate numbers serial numbers. But I sure the counterfitters are finding ways around the numbers too.

If they want let you take it apart or have it appraised-----run!

It's a sad day when you have to ask for a carbon dating test with the '59 Strat or '52 Paul you're wanting to purchase.

I guess faking amps will be next.
 
If you have ever played a real '57 strat (total piece of junk)... the fake would have to have that definite junky quality to it to make it passable...

Now a early 60's Strat... Way different story... a total players guitar

Shred
 
Buck62 said:
The process of "aging" guitars has now become so good that it's virtually impossible to tell a fake from the real thing.
Click to expand...
Not impossible, Buck. It's just a shift in forensic methodology. That's where direct knowledge of the instrument's history reveals the truth. That's how I *know* I own a vintage guitar.
 
Yeah, yeah - You just bought it new and yer 20 years older than you let on....:D
 
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