So.. has anyone tried this trick?

[Lt. Bob]

I'm gonna put on my flame retardent pants and make a few comments (hoo boy ...... I'm gonna regret this)

This is first and foremost a recording site and mostly .... the musicianship is secondary to the technical end of recording.
I arrived here by accident because I do record; but I'm primarily a player and I can tell you that 99% of the people who play here are primarily recordists.
I hear chops ranging from OMG to ..... hmmmm , that's not too bad. Every once in a while I'll hear someone who shines but even then they're usually limited to a certain style. Now, I moved to Florida about 7 weeks ago ...... did not know a single person at all ...... and in 4 weeks I was playing 5 and 6 gigs a week. Sometimes guitar ..... sometimes bass ..... mostly sax. I'm also playing with 3 of the better bands here already.
The reason is that I have spent my life concentrating on the performance aspect of music ...... much to the detriment of my finances I might add.
But normal people with normal lives and normal jobs and normal families will never be able to spend 4 -8 hours a day every single day playing.
And that's most of the people who come here and it's quite a few people who go into a studio hoping to record something.

There is certainly a place for engineers that have certain musical standards that they won't compromise.
But there is also a place for those who'll try to make a mess sound as best they can.
Now, I don't have an opinion on the normalizing thing 'cause I don't do that ....... I simply play it right in the first place or I get a good drummer if that's what I need but: I play with the very best players all the time ...... most recordists (and bands for that matter) don't; and they don't have such easy access to them.
So what's someone who has limited abilities do?
Should he not record because he's mediocre?

As a working musician I have to earn money which means if you want to pay me and I don't have a gig that night I'm yours. So I sometimes play with people who aren't all that good. Some top-tier players I know cop an attitude about it and play halfheartedly because it's beneath them.
I, however, feel like they may not be as good as me but they love it just like I do and so I play my very best for them ...... just as hard as if some big name band hired me. Guess who works more ..... me or guys that act too good for the people who hire them.

I remember when I was a beginner ...... playing with people better than me would lift my playing up ...... make me play better than I normally could. And so if I put my best effort forward ..... sometimes I can lift their playing upward beyond what they might have done otherwise.

Isn't some of that applicable to recording?
If, instead of having an attitude of, "These guys suck" you simply try to elevate what they're doing as much as possible ....... doesn't that help them without really compromising your artistic integrity?

 

[Dogman]

I'm gonna put on my flame retardent pants and make a few comments (hoo boy ...... I'm gonna regret this)

This is first and foremost a recording site and mostly .... the musicianship is secondary to the technical end of recording.
I arrived here by accident because I do record; but I'm primarily a player and I can tell you that 99% of the people who play here are primarily recordists.
I hear chops ranging from OMG to ..... hmmmm , that's not too bad. Every once in a while I'll hear someone who shines but even then they're usually limited to a certain style. Now, I moved to Florida about 7 weeks ago ...... did not know a single person at all ...... and in 4 weeks I was playing 5 and 6 gigs a week. Sometimes guitar ..... sometimes bass ..... mostly sax. I'm also playing with 3 of the better bands here already.
The reason is that I have spent my life concentrating on the performance aspect of music ...... much to the detriment of my finances I might add.
But normal people with normal lives and normal jobs and normal families will never be able to spend 4 -8 hours a day every single day playing.
And that's most of the people who come here and it's quite a few people who go into a studio hoping to record something.

There is certainly a place for engineers that have certain musical standards that they won't compromise.
But there is also a place for those who'll try to make a mess sound as best they can.
Now, I don't have an opinion on the normalizing thing 'cause I don't do that ....... I simply play it right in the first place or I get a good drummer if that's what I need but: I play with the very best players all the time ...... most recordists (and bands for that matter) don't; and they don't have such easy access to them.
So what's someone who has limited abilities do?
Should he not record because he's mediocre?

As a working musician I have to earn money which means if you want to pay me and I don't have a gig that night I'm yours. So I sometimes play with people who aren't all that good. Some top-tier players I know cop an attitude about it and play halfheartedly because it's beneath them.
I, however, feel like they may not be as good as me but they love it just like I do and so I play my very best for them ...... just as hard as if some big name band hired me. Guess who works more ..... me or guys that act too good for the people who hire them.

I remember when I was a beginner ...... playing with people better than me would lift my playing up ...... make me play better than I normally could. And so if I put my best effort forward ..... sometimes I can lift their playing upward beyond what they might have done otherwise.

Isn't some of that applicable to recording?
If, instead of having an attitude of, "These guys suck" you simply try to elevate what they're doing as much as possible ....... doesn't that help them without really compromising your artistic integrity?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

So what's someone who has limited abilities do?
Should he not record because he's mediocre?

I'm not going to flame you, Bob. Those are legit questions. I would like to answer them though, because I think you're missing the point slighty.

That person you describe in the above quote has one of two choices: spend eight hours practicing the song to get the performance down or spend eight hours at their desk trying to electronically fix a bad performance. Which way will come out better? My contention is that the first one will win out, hands down. Even Rick Rubin in a $500K studio can't make a poor performance sound as good as a naturally great performance. And in this forum we're not talking about Rick Rubin, we're usually talking about someone who has no more, and usually less, mastery of their recording gear than they do of their musical instrument. The chances for success by expecting a Fix-O-Matic processor to "make my recording sound like the commercial MP3s I play" without putting the effort into the performance first is nil.

It's not that people shouldn't record, it's just the question of why they are in such a *hurry* to record? Those of us who have walked that path before know that is a path to disappointing results.

The common knowledge, in fact the cliche, in these forums is that if one is going to a pro studio that they had better practice their asses off before they even step into the green room. I have yet to hear one opinion from anybody that disagrees with that sentiment. Why should those standards be any less if one uses their own studio?

If one tries to answer, "because one is a waste of time and money and the other isn't", I would have to reply that the average home studio rig costs well into the thousands of dollars; that's even more of a waste of money than a few hours in a studio if one is not going to put the same amount of effort into the preparation. And as far as time, a pro studio only costs the performer the time in tracking, when he is his own engineer there is the additional time of setup and mixing. So it's a *lot* more expensive overall in both time and money to do it yourself. Hitting the record button at home should be an action handled with just as much respect as it is in a "pro" studio.

I say to the general public, go ahead an be a recordist. Knock yourself out. But don't waste your investment in time and money by thinking that just because you have a couple of grand of gear (that you probably don't even really know how to use very well yet) that you can cut corners on the practice and performance and expect to come out the other end with a product that meets your inner expectations, let alone desires. If you want to get your money's worth out of all your fancy hardware and plugins and whatnot, you gotta be *ready* when you hit that big red button.

Here in this thread we have a guy who admits that he's not at all interested in learning even the most basic elements of playing the instrument, yet at the same time he wants to make his recording sound as good as possible. Those two statements are like oil and water. It just plain doesn't work that way.

As I admitted earlier in this thread, I am not a musician, I am a (to use your term) recordist. But the #1 fundamental rule, for which there are no exceptions, is that the musicians are far more important than I will ever be.

I say that for several reasons. The most fundamental of those reasons is that they can exist and do their thing without me, but I cannot exist and do my thing without them. Without the music, there is nothing to record.

It's all about the music. Get that wrong, and the rest is meaningless. What's the point of recording if the performace isn't all that worth listening to?

G.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I totally agree with all of that with this one caveat.
Some (read many) players can practice all they want and they'll still be crappy .
All of us know 50 year old players that are as good as they'll ever be regardless of how much more they practice.
I was a judge last night in a singing contest and all the judges were good players.
To be honest, we all laughed about all but two of the singers ..... I mean, can't these people hear? Some were so bad that it's hard to describe. But we were careful not to let them see us laughing and none of us tried to be a Simon Crowell about it. What would be the point? The market and reality make sure we won't have to hear them much.
And I did say there was a place for engineers that won't lower their standards ...... I have no problem with that as long as it's not meanspirited (and BTW ...... I haven't read anything you've written here that seemed mean to me ........ just factual so I am not critisizing you in any way)

But just as painters may suck but enjoy the process of putting brush on canvas and are proud of what they've done even if it's bad because, at least, they did it ...... they took some time and had fun doing it; I think that a musician that sucks but enjoys doing what he can is a good thing for the musical community as a whole. He buys gear which helps keep companies that we also like in buisiness and when our stuff is compared to his, we get props for the obviously better quality of our work.

Sure ..... it's seems silly when someone thinks they've got a masterpiece and it really sucks ..... and maybe we want to disillusion them but why?

Life is nothing but hope ..... hope that maybe you're a musician ...... hope that maybe you don't have a dread disease ..... hope that your wife won't run off with someone else.

I think everyone's entitled to their hopes and dreams and we shouldn't crush them simply because it's obvious to us that it's unattainable.

Once again Glen, I don't see you saying anything meanspirited and I agree with really, all your points. And just as these guys are entitled to their dreams ..... you're entitled to have your dreams as to who you want to record and who you don't. Nothing wrong with that at all ....... but it's ok for others to have lower standards. Doesn't make them bad people ...... just bad musicians which, in the grand scheme of things , isn't really all that important.

I suppose it's easy for me to feel this way ....... I don't really want everyone to get better ........ they might take some of my gigs!

 

[littledog]

Glen,

I played piano and keyboards for about 40 years before it ever occurred to me to hit a "record" button, so I can certainly see both sides of the issue.

Your last post was very thought provoking, and I'd like to respond to some of your ideas, hopefully with your understanding that while I may disagree with you on some of these specific points, that in the larger picture I have great respect for your point of view, and usually find myself agreeing with you far more often than not.

My biggest problem is that I just don't think it is my place, as an engineer, to set myself up as the judge and jury as to who should be allowed to record, and who not. What I CAN do, as you do, is decide whether I personally want to be involved in a particular project. I suspect we are not that far apart on that issue, although this particular thread might give others a different impression.

That person you describe in the above quote has one of two choices: spend eight hours practicing the song to get the performance down or spend eight hours at their desk trying to electronically fix a bad performance. Which way will come out better? My contention is that the first one will win out, hands down. .... The chances for success by expecting a Fix-O-Matic processor to "make my recording sound like the commercial MP3s I play" without putting the effort into the performance first is nil.

As a musician, I can say with confidence that if someone can't play, practicing for eight hours isn't going to help. A couple of years, maybe, (if they really apply themselves). So the "eight of your hours versus eight of mine" comparison is flawed.

It's not that people shouldn't record, it's just the question of why they are in such a *hurry* to record? Those of us who have walked that path before know that is a path to disappointing results.

Again, who are we to judge. Life is short. They could be on their way to Iran to get blown up next month, or they could get hit by a bus walking across the street. "What's your rush?" may be a perfectly legitimate philosophy, but arguments can also be made for "Live like there is no tomorrow" or "Seize the time". The point is, I'm in no position to judge which philosophy is more appropriate for anyone other than myself. And greater minds than ours have made compelling arguments for both sides of that coin.

The common knowledge, in fact the cliche, in these forums is that if one is going to a pro studio that they had better practice their asses off before they even step into the green room. I have yet to hear one opinion from anybody that disagrees with that sentiment. Why should those standards be any less if one uses their own studio?

Because that is exactly why many of us have home studios to begin with. You wouldn't go into a $100/hr (or more) studio without being fully prepared because most of us don't have that kind of cake. But believe me, when a record company is picking up the bill, there have been plenty of bands who HAVE gone into the studio less than fully prepared. But the real point is, a home studio gives us the time to play "off the clock", to experiment, to try new techniques, to use a trial and error method. Or just to have a scratch pad to jot down musical ideas to be more fully realized at a later date.

If one tries to answer, "because one is a waste of time and money and the other isn't", I would have to reply that the average home studio rig costs well into the thousands of dollars; that's even more of a waste of money than a few hours in a studio if one is not going to put the same amount of effort into the preparation. And as far as time, a pro studio only costs the performer the time in tracking, when he is his own engineer there is the additional time of setup and mixing. So it's a *lot* more expensive overall in both time and money to do it yourself. Hitting the record button at home should be an action handled with just as much respect as it is in a "pro" studio.

But that is exactly what I am trying to argue. If you spend $5000 on some recording gear, and use it just once - then yeah, you haven't saved any money over using a big name studio. But lets assume you use it once every three days for a year. Now in that first year, it cost you less than $50 every time you used it. Do it over two years and its less than $25. Gear is gear - it's not a religious idol. It is an inanimate object, no more worthy of respect than any other material posession. We don't throw our condenser mics across the room because of our great respect for it, but because it will cost us money to replace it.

I say to the general public, go ahead an be a recordist. Knock yourself out. But don't waste your investment in time and money by thinking that just because you have a couple of grand of gear (that you probably don't even really know how to use very well yet) that you can cut corners on the practice and performance and expect to come out the other end with a product that meets your inner expectations, let alone desires. If you want to get your money's worth out of all your fancy hardware and plugins and whatnot, you gotta be *ready* when you hit that big red button.

Here in this thread we have a guy who admits that he's not at all interested in learning even the most basic elements of playing the instrument, yet at the same time he wants to make his recording sound as good as possible. Those two statements are like oil and water. It just plain doesn't work that way.

It's all about the music. Get that wrong, and the rest is meaningless. What's the point of recording if the performace isn't all that worth listening to?

First of all, unless I'm confused, the guy who started this thread made no mention of wanting to sound as good as anything. He was relating a technique for fixing a bad snare track. But maybe that aspect arose later, and I'm a little to lazy to reread the entire thread...

So I'll just address your very last point: "What's the point of recording if the performace isn't all that worth listening to?"

The same point as playing an instrument if you haven't mastered it yet. PRACTICE. Learning to perform in recording studio conditions takes practice. Learning to use the recording gear takes practice. Learning to mix takes practice. If you bought some recording gear and don't use it because you aren't "ready", isn't that even more of a waste of time and money?

And judging whether it is worth listening to assumes you know the audience for which it was intended. Maybe a composer just needs to hear if certain compositional ideas are working. Maybe a song writer just needs to record a song before he/she forgets it. Maybe a beginning instrumentalist needs to record themselves to judge their progress and see where they need improvement. Maybe the guy's grandmother would really like to hear her grandchild playing on a CD in her apartment.

If someone needed to do any of the above paragraph on a regular basis, it sounds to me like buying and setting up a basic recording system is a wonderful idea. And then, if they want to get ideas for improving their technique, I think that discussion forums like this one are exactly the right place to ask those question - and they shouldn't be discouraged because they have neither the chops or the equipment to play or record at a professional level.

 

[VSpaceBoy]

I try and I try to stay away, but I guess I can't.

My original beef in this thread was Glens troll. He didn't answer my question in any respect. His statement was "don't suck, thank you please drive through" Then subsequent, this thread derailed, crashed and burned. None of us are smarter or dumber, older or younger.


That’s not true, I did learn one thing.


There are two kinds of people, those who listen to the forest (song), and those who listen to the tree (engineering, instrument, lyric). Let me also remind you that there are more ppl listening to music through decraptified, recorded off the radio, mp3 players then anyone. What does that tell us?


And for the record, in reference to recording, practicing for 8 hours a day to get better, or hit the "split then normalize" button, I'll take the latter and keep writing music.

 

[NYMorningstar]

I just wanna say thanks for the idea VSpaceBoy, I'll give that a try.

 

[VSpaceBoy]

I just wanna say thanks for the idea VSpaceBoy, I'll give that a try.

Glad to help.

 

[Dogman]

I say we all gather together, for a beer, and discuss this....We each buy a round, and all will be cool.....

 

[VSpaceBoy]

I say we all gather together, for a beer, and discuss this....We each buy a round, and all will be cool.....

Ed, I don't think that, ok I'm in.