SM58/AW4416 compatibility problem?

[Amber Valetta]

I'm experiencing difficulties recording clean audio from a Shure SM58 onto my Yamaha AW4416 hard disk recorder.

The problem is that I get a lot of hiss on the recordings I make. The hiss is very noticeable - I'd say it is worse than sound recorded onto and played back on a cassette tape without using Dolby.

I am using a Shure SM58 microphone connected directly to the AW4416 with an XLR cable - I have also tried using a cheaper dynamic microphone and a phono cable, but I get exactly the same problem.

I also own a Tascam minidisc 4-track recorder, and using the same microphones and cables with the Tascam doesn't result in any noticeable hiss.

I have noticed that when I turn up the gain on the Tascam to near the top with no microphone plugged in, I get a lot of hiss, but this stops as soon as you plug the microphone in. The Yamaha AW4416 has the same symptoms with a similar amount of hiss, except that the hiss does not stop when you plug the microphone in.

I was in a music shop at the weekend, and the sales assistant was trying to tell me that the AW4416 is not faulty and that I just need a mic preamp, as the AW4416 has a different input impedance. I'm not sure I believe him though - I used to have a Roland VS1680, and I never had this problem, and my minidisc 4-track doesn't have the problem, so why would the Yamaha have a different 'difficult' input impedance?

Can anyone explain this to me, or is there a good tutorial someone could suggest? I'm rather flummoxed by all this. I thought the AW4416 came with an in-built mic pre-amp, but maybe it can't be used for dynamic microphones or something??? Or is my AW4416 faulty? If it's not the input impedance which is the problem, what could it be - radio interference?

Any suggestions much appreciated.

 

[John Sayers]

Sure sounds strange to me and once again confirms that you should not listen to sales assistants The mike is compatible with your machine for sure. (no pun intended) You haven't got anything else plugged in like a external/internal reverb or something?? that might be causing the hiss??

cheers
john

 

[atomictoyz]

The unit should accept any microphone regardless of the type of cord, the only thing is how much of the onboard pre amp is being used. It might be the chord itself? Make sure the preamp is all the way down to zero, and check to see whether or not the Phantom power is on. You need to also go back a check what all is on, meaning do you have 44 open channels cued to the master faders. try to isolate just the one channel, and go thru all the options for that channel. I have an MD8 by yamaha, and Ive never used a outboard mic preamp... Disconnect everything and start over, one step at a time put the chords in, try plugging in a chord only to the XLR input without the mic connected.. . Yamaha has a link to a 4416 user site..you might try asking there too. I Thinks its
http://www.aw4416.com

Good Luck!

Where is Kato and the Green Hornet?

Peace,
Dennis

 

[TexRoadkill]

Are you sure the Yamaha has mic level inputs? If it is really noisy you will definately need a preamp.

What are you trying to record? The 58 has a pretty wide pattern and not a lot of output. If your trying to mic a guitar from a few feet away dont expect it to sound to quiet.

The 58 is best for live vocals where the singer can practicaly swallow the mic and not cause distortion.

I get a get a pretty high noise floor using a 57 and it is tighter than a 58. Using mediocre pre's and a 58 may not give you the results you are looking for.

 

[Amber Valetta]

Thanks all for the suggestions.

Nothing else is plugged in, the cords and mics I've tried using work fine with my Tascam minidisc 4-track, the phantom power is off, and I've tried isolating just the one input channel but still get the same problem.

The inputs on the Yamaha have a gain control you can set between 'line' and 'mic', so you'd have thought it would be OK. Set at 'line' there's no noticeable hiss, but then of course you can't hear the microphone's output!

I'm trying to record vocals pretty close up, but the hiss is way higher than acceptable - and way more than what I get through the Tascam minidisk 4-track or what I used to get through the Roland VS1680.

The hiss is constant, and doesn't seem to vary with distance from speakers, other instruments etc.

...all of which leads me to suspect I've got a dodgy AW4416 - lucky me! (short of any more suggestions???) Is that feasible? Will contact Yamaha, but has anyone here heard of this happening with another AW4416 which got repaired OK?

 

[TexRoadkill]

Try to find another Yamaha at the store and plug in a 58 and see what happens. It is possible the preamps on the unit just suck but I've never used one.

Can you use your Tascam as the preamp and run a direct line out of that into the yamaha? That may be your best short term solution.

Good luck

 

[knownuttin]

Unfortunately, the tests you've done seem to point to exactly that, a faulty unit. Is it in warranty?

Out of curiosity, why did you dump the Roland?
-kp

 

[gordone]

Not sure if you tried this, but make sure that the cable has XLR on both ends and you are plugging it into an XLR input on the Yamaha. I used an SM58 with my old MD4S without any problems. Good luck!

 

[Amber Valetta]

Bought Yamaha by mail order, so just need to find a local shop willing to let me have a quick play on their aw4416 - the last place I asked, they wouldn't let me (the ba*ds! - and yet they still expect me to buy all their fancy preamps to solve the problem they've diagnosed without even seeing my setup!!!)

Using the Tascam as a preamp does actually work, so thanks for that suggestion. Sounds OK to my ears anyway, although there's still that worry that if the unit is faulty in the preamps, maybe it's faulty elsewhere but less noticably so... Also, now want to buy condenser mic, and Tascam has no phanton power.

Much prefer Yamaha AW4416 to Roland VS1680, especially for flying faders - just makes everything so much easier. Only downside of Yamaha is crap microphone sound!

 

[knownuttin]

When you say using the Tascam for a preamp works, do you mean it solves the hiss problem? I'm not familiar enough with the 4416, but are there really mic pre's built into the input like on the old portastudios? I was assuming so, but am I wrong?

In other words, though I would have to read your manual and I don't want to, it may be that the 4416 requires that you preamp the mic signal before bringing it to the input. If so, I'm confused as to why they would have a selector switch for mic/line signals as you describe. But the fact that using the Tascam as a pre worked....?

PS-When you start needing phantom power, you don't have to break the bank. Do a search on here for The Audio Buddy. Widely recommended, fairly clean, 2 channels of pre for about $80.
Good luck!
-kent

 

[knownuttin]

Ok, just read a review of the 4416, and learned some stuff. Please don't be offended if my questions seem condescending. I don't know you or your level of experience so I have to ask.

According to the review, the XLR input is a mic pre with a trim control. Is that trim control a fader that allows you to adjust the input level? That's what I picture when they say trim control. At any rate, it should be something different from the mic/line input switch you mentioned. If so, do you have it adjusted properly? Faulty gain staging is a common cause of unwanted noise (sorry for the big "duh" there).

Also, the review says that channel comes equipped with 48V phantom power. If true, you shouldn't need (though you may well desire) an additional outboard power source or mic pre to use condensor mics. Hope this helps.
-kent

 

[Amber Valetta]

News

Do ask away - no condescension taken, and thanks for the suggestions.

Anyway, about the trim control - when I wrote that the Yamaha inputs have a "gain control you can set between 'line' and 'mic'", I should maybe have been clearer and written "gain control you can set ANYWHERE between 'line' and 'mic'". i.e. it's not a 'switch', it's a rotating dial.

And yes, using the Tascam as a preamp does solve the hiss problem.

Anyway, I have some news. Over the weekend, I found 2 shops who were willing to let me try their AW4416's with my XLR cable and SM58. Both shop's AW4416's had the same resulting large amount of hiss that I experience on my AW4416 at home.

So, my AW4416 is not faulty. I've now concluded that the AW4416 just has rubbish in-built preamps.

In one of the shops, I even managed to use their AW4416 with their XLR cable (and my SM 58), so I can be sure that my cable is not faulty (although I strictly already knew that, and that my SM58 is not faulty, from the fact that they both work fine together with my Tascam minidisk 4-track).

More news - I have now bought an AT4033 SE mic. This gives far better results than the SM58. There is now an acceptable level of hiss, although there is still slightly more than I would have expected - I think this just comes down again to the AW4416 having rubbish preamps. So I'll probably buy an outboard preamp of some kind.

Any suggestions for a preamp that will suit both the SM58 and the AT4033? This Audio Buddy will do the trick will it?

 

[knownuttin]

That's very interesting! I would have expected better from the 4416 as it has been so favorably reviewed and touted by its many users. Pleased to hear yours is not faulty though.

Congratulations on the 4033 purchase. You have chosen a well regarded LD condenser which should be a "keeper" in your growing mic locker. To your question about preamps, yes, the Audio Buddy should be suitable for both the 58 and the 4033. The 58 of course needs no phantom power, so you can just switch that off when you are using it. Recommending the Buddy is based on "bang for the buck". There is no less expensive preamp which provides acceptable quality "clean" gain with phantom power included. As always, you can spend more for better quality. In my case, I found a Symetrix 202 cheaply on Ebay. It is comparable to the Mackie VLZ Pro mixer preamps. That is, it's not bad. Mackie's VLZ Pro mini-mixers, such as the 1202, are often recommended just for the preamps, from which you may take the direct signal out and bypass the mixer circuitry. They sell for around $400 USD.

As you shop, you will see many inexpensive preamps marketed to the home recordist which claim to be "tube" gear, which will "warm up cold digital recordings". These are mostly hybrid designs with a cheap tube stage adding some mild distortion to the signal before running it through a solid state circuit. While this may be desirable in some cases (I like to run bass guitar direct through the ART Tube MP $80 USD), if you run several tracks through such a device, that distortion accumulates and mucks up your multi-track recording. What at first was merely insidious, eventually becomes obnoxious.

Chime in with other recommendations for preamps, Home Reccers!
Happy recording!
-kent

 

[charger]

Except, there are differing opinions on this board as to whether the 4033 is a "LD" condenser or not. I tend to think it is not, based on Harvey's explanation.

 

[knownuttin]

Fair enough. Would you allow "medium" then? I think of the 3525 as "medium". I did not mean to touch off a firestorm of controversy regarding the proper categorization of microphones, nor present myself as an authority upon them.

Any comments on suitable preamps for both the 4033 and the 58? I'm betting several of us have both, or have used both.

 

[Chris F]

I'm very interested in the outcome of this thread, as I am considering getting a 2816 machine as a step up from my MD4s, which I dearly love but doesn't have enough inputs. What is curious about the whole hiss issue is that all of the reviews of the 2816 that I've read say that the pres on it are actually quite good, and that this is one of the great positives about the unit - and these are all third party reviews.

I still want to believe that there is a faulty setting somewhere in you signal chain (inside the machine) that is causing this sound. I use a 58 all the time with my MD4s, and it sounds great. You'd think the pres in the 4416 would be as least as good.

Please report back when you get this all sorted out...I'd hate to spend that much on a unit with crappy pres!

 

[knownuttin]

I'm with you Chris. I don't get it either. The 4416 is well-regarded among people whose opinions I respect. They would not readily overlook such a major shortcoming, and certainly would not fail to mention it. I'm talking forum moderators and senior members more than magazine reviewers. It's just too puzzling that Yamaha would put together such an otherwise solid piece of gear and stick in a mic pre crummier than an old cassette 4-track had.

We have suggested several troubleshooting steps, all negative. When the threadstarter reported trying out other units in a dealer recently, the results were the same. I don't find this conclusive, but now what? Short of seeking some remedy from the seller or manufacturer, one could scour the user groups (4416.com?) for answers.
-kent

 

[Amber Valetta]

Have to admit I'm equally puzzled, and I certainly wasn't expecting to have to shell out for a preamp when I bought the unit, but I'm being somewhat forced to.

Should point out that my 4-track is a fairly high-quality Tascam minidisk 4-track rather than an old cassette 4-track.

Nevertheless, the sound quality I get with the SM58 on my AW4416 is many many times worse than on the Tascam, and I don't believe that anybody could use sound of that quality on anything but the very roughest of demos.

Wouldn't have though it possible, but is there any way my SM58 could have become faulty such that it works fine through my Tascam minidisk 4-track, but gives far worse results through another unit? Sounds unlikely, I know, but this is the only 'weakness' I can see in the tests I've preformed - and if that's not a possibility, I'll have to stick with my conclusion of the AW4416 having rubbish preamps.

If any of you lot want to go into a shop and ask for a demo of the AW4416 with an SM58, I'd be intrigued to hear what you find.

I read somewhere that the AW2816 has a slightly different spec in places from the AW4416, but I didn't think that applied to preamps. Not sure though.

By the way, I contacted Yamaha a while back and explained the problem. After a long wait, I eventually got a reply back just saying that it should work OK.

 

[Chris F]

Amber,

have you posted this question on any 4416 user groups? I bet the most helpful and informative people will be found there. Also, I know that on this board, several people use similar machines. Maybe if you did a search for yamaha 4416 you could dig up some old threads on the subject (I did this a few weeks ago, and came up with a bunch of threads touching on the subject of the Yamaha stuff). Then you could PM those in the thread who own this unit and give them a link to this thread in case they might have some suggestions.

Good luck.

 

[knownuttin]

Good suggestions Chris! Amber, have you tried the 4416 user group? You need responses from people familiar with your gear specifically and that's a great place to find a lot of them.

There is no reason the 4416's preamps should not perform at least as well as that of your minidisc. Nor is there any reason the 58 should be noisy on it and not on the minidisc, either. You should not have to buy an outboard preamp just to get a usable signal into this thing! Keep searching. The truth is out there.
-kent