SM57 spanked C3000B on vocal

MrZekeMan

MrZekeMan

New member
I got my VS-2480 and I'm zealously trying to learn how to use the machine. It was an ordeal just learning how to overdub with it.:eek:

I spent the first day working on getting the tracking down and was recording part of a song. The two stanzas I was singing sounded like warmed over crap. I did multiple takes and it sounded substantially better after exaustive redo's. However it still sounded barely passable.

Well today my Sm57 was setting in front of the amp cab, and I thought what the hey? I tried the vocals on it and it spanked the AKG. Unbelievably better.

Mixing the crappy track in with the Sm57 track gave a nice full sound. tomorrow I'm gonna lay down another track with the Sm57 and mix it with the other 57 track. One with efx and one without.

I had my brother pick up a Marshall v67 at Mars in Dallas. I can't wait to get my hands on it.

I've noticed when setting my mic levels that I'm getting distortion before the level reaches 0db. What could be causing that?

Thanx,
Zeke
 
re: distortion

on almost any other mic but an SM57, I'd say you're exceeding the SPL threshold, but I can't imagine doing that with an SM57 and vocals even if you were using a megaphone.

Look for where the level goes into the board...make sure you're not overloading the channel.
 
Re: C3000B vs. SM57

Tom Cram said:
Yeah, those C3000B's really suck... I've got a spare 57 I'll trade you for it:D
Click to expand...

I've got a 57 silly. Do you have TLM 103? I'll trade you for it.:p

Zeke
 
Re: Re: C3000B vs. SM57

MrZekeMan said:


I've got a 57 silly. Do you have TLM 103? I'll trade you for it.:p

Zeke
Click to expand...

I have a couple Shure Electret's, a Tascam PE 125, an AKG C 1000, 57's, 58's, Audix OM 3's, some Peavey condensor I will grudgingly trade you for it. Pick any one of the above....:)

Ed
 
Re: Re: Re: C3000B vs. SM57

sonusman said:


I have a couple Shure Electret's, a Tascam PE 125, an AKG C 1000, 57's, 58's, Audix OM 3's, some Peavey condensor I will grudgingly trade you for it. Pick any one of the above....:)

Ed
Click to expand...

I think I'll hold out for the Neumann!!!

What do you guys use the C3000B for? I was singing some very high parts and it sounded terribly crappy on the high end. It wasn't so bad on the low end. I tried all possible switch combinations, but it was all bad. To say the acoustics are less than ideal where I'm recording would be an understatement. Maybe that's a factor, but I don't see how it would make that big of a difference between it and the dynamic mic. I'm just trying to figure out the mechanics of the machine right now, Ill worry about the other variables when I master everything enough to actually record without being glued to tha manual.

I had a friend over yesterday and we laid down some vocals. He sounded better through the AKG than I did. But he too sounded better through the 57. The mic (AKG) should be okay, I bought it brand new.

I haven't tried it on any instruments yet. I recorded some guitar(Ovation & Gibson SG) parts both going straight into the VS-2480, and running through the amp miced with the 57.

I'm just curious as to what you guys would use the AKG for? Vocals? Instruments? Am I doing something wrong with it that's causing me to not get a decent sound from it?
:confused:

Zeke
 
off the top of my head...

I have a C3000 that I use a lot (similar to C3000b, but not the same). I've read a few posts from folks that don't like this mic. It does have a spike in the upper mids that doesn't favor some voices, but I've found many uses for it. I use/used it on distant backup vox, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, acoustic bass, etc.

A C3000/b has quite a bit larger polar pattern and greater sensitivity than a 57, so it will pick up more room sound. If your room sounds crappy, you will hear more of it. I need more info in order to determine if there is something wrong with the usage or the mic. Does it sound thin? Does it distort? Does it bottom out? How close are you mic'ing? What is the mics position relative to source? What pre are you using? What voltage is your phantom power source?

Help me help you.


Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com
 
Tom,

I'm a newbie, so if I sound like an idiot here, it's because I am.:o

I'm running both mics direct into my new VS-2480. I suppose I'm using the mic pres on the recorder. :confused: The manuals (all three of them) are a little bit difficult for me to understand. I've perused all three trying to find the word Preamp, or Mic pre or anything related, and I can't find anything anywhere. The only thing I can find that seems to be related to preamplification is when it's describing how to set up mics. There is a pad button located under each of the 16 inputs. It applies 20db attenuation to the input from the line device. "If [Pad] is pressed the SENS knob has a range of -44- +14 dBu. If [Pad] is in the out position, the SENS know has a range of -64- -6 dBu."

Is this a preamp adjustment? I read on VS-Planet where one guy said that 2480's pres were an improvement over the 1880's. I have nothing to compare to, as this is my first stint at recording.

The mic definitely sounds thin on the top to me, and for lack of a better word, rather brutal, or maybe harsh would be a better word. Very unflattering. I was in very close to the mic. (3 inches) It sounded better that way. But it makes sense now as per your comments on it picking up more room sound. It definitely sounded better turning the sensitivity down and getting up close to the mic.

Position relative to source? I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I was singing directly into it.

I don't remember getting any distortion on the AKG. I was getting some when recording guitar, and it was coming in before I reached 0db on the VU meter.

I'm using the phantom power on the recorder which is 48 volt.

Now I save the best for last, because you're probably gonna laugh at me and hold me in derision on this one. I just got my machine in last Thursday. I don't really have a place to set up in a good acoustic environment. I'm working on that. Besides, I'm just trying to learn how to use the flippin machine.

I'm in a 40 ft travel trailer. I have everything set up in the back of the trailer where I have a slide out. It is 10ft x 10ft, and of course opens up the front of the trailer. I have the mic facing to the sides of the trailer. I have it on a mic stand. The top of my head about 3 inches from the top of the ceiling while singing. (It just dawned on me that I should have tried it setting down.)

It seemed to be better on the lower stuff. It was some fairly high parts that were sounding rough.

Maybe I was premature in disparaging the AKG, I was just really suprised at how much better the shure sounded. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Zeke
 
re: akg c3000b vs. sm 57

I also own and use an akg c3000b. It seems to work well for my baritone voice as it is the "warm/full" type.
Since it's so sensitive, I use my walk-in closet (insulated with moving blankets), and engage the -10 decibel preattenuation switch on the microphone to get better results. When recording elsewhere in my home I use
either a sennheiser 421 (large diaphram dynamic), or an audio-technica at3527 (small diaphram condenser-
omni-directional), as they are both have less sensitivity to room acoustics and sound fine for my vocals.
Maybe it's too bright of a microphone for the brighter male tenor or female soprano voices?!
I would also trade for the neumann though!
 
OK,

I've never used a VS(x) so I can't comment on the pre amps. The pad is pretty self-explanatory. If you are getting distortion, engage the pad on the mic. If a mic has no pad use the pad on your VS.

Comparing the C3000b to a SM57 is really apples and oranges, but here are a few generalities. The 57 is a dynamic mic that has a pretty pronounced proximity effect, relatively small pickup pattern, and rolled off highs and lows. Since it has a small pickup pattern you've got to get in close. And, since this mic is a dynamic it can take some pretty high SPL's, this means that it takes a lot to make it distort or bottom out. Rugged is a word that comes to mind. Since different mics like different voices, this just may be the perfect mic for your voice. I've read that Tom Petty favors using a 57. I use it a lot for guitar cabs, and to a lesser extent snare drum, rarely (if ever) for vocals.

The 3000b is a condenser that is definitely not flat, but it's frequency range extends well above and below the 57's. It can handle high SPL's, but probably not as high as the 57 (I don't have the specs in front of me, so I can't quote numbers). This means it will distort quicker than a 57. This mic has a relatively large pickup pattern. Since it "hears" more frequencies than a 57, it will "hear" more of the room, your shirt, your throat, your lips, etc. It is more sensitive to sibilance, fricatives, pops, and thumps, especially at 3" from the grill . So if you don't have a pop filter, get or make one. If you are trying for breathy, bassy, intimate, quiet vocals 3" works great. If you want loud, full-voice, or screaming you need to be at LEAST 12" away. Also, on or off axis affects tonal quality A LOT. Thus my question about "position relative to source." Also, you'd be suprised how many people don't realize which mics are side address.

I'm not going to laugh about where you record. Many people have worse. You need to pick up some books on acoustics to help your room situation. The best advice is the simplest. If your room sucks, don't record there. If you have no choice but to record there, fix it. The 3" of headroom above the singers head and mic is a BIG problem. I would find a way to address this problem first. Then I would move on to absorption and diffusion. Get an acoustics book.

The longest journey begins with the first step. You are definitely on the first step, but don't give up. :)

p.s. Try the search function.


Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com
 
Last edited:
Re: OK,

Tom Cram said:
It is more sensitive to sibilance, fricatives, pops, and thumps, especially at 3" from the grill . So if you don't have a pop filter, get or make one. If you are trying for breathy, bassy, intimate, quiet vocals 3" works great. If you want loud, full-voice, or screaming you need to be at LEAST 12" away. Also, on or off axis affects tonal quality A LOT. Thus my question about "position relative to source." Also, you'd be suprised how many people don't realize which mics are side address.

I'm not going to laugh about where you record. Many people have worse. The longest journey begins with the first step. You are definitely on the first step, but don't give up. :)
Click to expand...

I looked up sibilance, but I couldn't find fricatives. What do you do about sibilance? Does a pop filter help that too, or maybe equalization?

I definitely have some pops and thumps in my recoding, I'm planning to get a pop filter soon. Thanks for the heads up on the off axis. I'm gonna experiment around with that a little.

I'm planning to build a small booth eventually. I need to find a better place to record until then.

Thanks for the advice, and I will reserve judgement on equipt. in the future until I have it in a fair environment.:)

Zeke
 
It's not that th c3000 sucks, it just sucks on your voice. Tom Petty uses a 57 live and I believe in the studio. Live I like the 57 to anything else, but studio wise, my voice sounds better through other mics.
 
fuh fuh fuh, kuh kuh kuh, sss, sss, sss,

Sibilance and Fricatives are onomatopoeic cousins. S's, F's, K's, C's, B's, P's, etc. all have high energy content that can cause distortion (extreme end) or annoyance (mild end). Pop filters help eliminate most of these problems. For everything else there are de-essers, notch filters, parametrics, and most important...good mic placement.

Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com
 
I'm using the C3000 through a dBx 286 Mic Processor, and I'm getting great results on vocals and acoustic guitar. If you can find a used 286, get one. It's got phantom power, mic pre, compressor, de-esser and gate all in one box.

Bob
 
VS stuff...

MrZekeMan, I have a VS 840 (same family, waaaaaaay other end of the spectrum...)

The VS preamps (which you are running thru) are poop. Improving poop may have made it slightly better poop, or they may actually have decided to put in a decent pre... Anyway, my mackie 1402's preamps sound much better/are much quieter than those in the 840...

The other issue with VS's is the meters. Certainly on the lower end ones, it's well recognised that the meters don't refresh fast enough to actually show the peaks, so you may well be going over 0dB without knowing it! A lot of VS'ers will go for around -4dB on the meters to avoid overload. I recently forgot this and wondered why my tracks were sounding like tuneful vomiting...

Hope that's useful,
Steve
 
Steve,

Much thanks, definitely useful input.

From what I've heard from others, the preamps are greatly improved. I haven't heard a single person say they're unhappy with them. I'm a total newbie so I don't have anything to compare too.

I want to get a nice external pre to use as well. But it will be a while before I save up the duckies to do it.

You may be right on the meter issue. I'm gonna post a new thread and get some input about compression/limiting during tracking.

Zeke
 
i think the problem is definitely the preamp

i've been through an extremely similar situation:
my friend has a vs-1880. i went to record some vocals with him using my AKG C2000b mic. we went direct into the 1880 preamps, and it sounded horrible. of course we had a sm-57 around, and we all thought the 57 vocals sounded better

anyway, i got ahold of a presonus tube preamp, to used with it with the C2000b........ well, it sounded unbelievably better (way better than the 57 through the same preamp or direct into the vs1880). if your gonna use any condensor mic, your gonna wanna get a seperate preamp i've found (i've gone through the same with my fostex vf-16).

anyway, i dont know how similar my c2000 is from your c3000 is, but i imagine they are somewhat close..... you can hear some of the vocals i've recorded with the c2000 at: www.mp3.com/OriginalOrganism the song serebrum has the most vocals on it...... i use the AKG c2000b with the presonus blue tube preamp for all vocals on all the songs as well as any acoustic guitars)
hope that helps some!!
 
Alan,

Pretty wild song. The vocals sounded clean.

I'm curious. What was your audio chain on your guitars for serebrum, both the lead and rythem?

Zeke
 
for the guitars on searebrum: i used a schecter a-7 (7-string) into a digitech WhammyII pedal, then into the J-station (set to rectified w/ the brit 4x12 cab setting) for the rythyms.
for the lead, i used the same guitar, but went straight into the j-station set to the j-lead setting, but with the cabinet simulation turned off (to give it kind of an industrial feel).
also, i have a distorted bass going for a lot of it (which makes the guitars sound more crazy and industrial). i jus ran my bass through the j-station rectified, and with no cab-sim.
thats all for the guitars on that song! (a lot less extra guitar stuff than some of my other tunes)
thanks for listening!!
 
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