ska punk horns

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ehhbuddy

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I dont know how many of you listen to this type of music, or have recorded it, but what is the best mic (quality + price) for recording horns. I dont have money to blow, and dont need something super awesome, but something better than the cheap mics I have now. Also, for those of you who have recorded horns, whats the best technique? WE have a trumpet and a trombone, and I want them to sound the fullest they can. They are the main focal point of the band and I want them to sound great. Do we double up the tracks for each horn or what? Im not sure where to begin. If anyone has any ideas????
 
I've never seriously recorded horns, but my first guess would be a SM57 for the trumpet and maybe a low freq. mic like the ATM25 for the trombone. I think most of the ska bands I have seen have used 57's or 58's live or little wireless condensers (bigger bands). What mics do you have right now?
Ian
 
Ive used an sm57 on trumpet and trombone with great results. A key thing though is what kind of reverb you use. The reverb is what gives that brightness in the hi mids. I tried some LDCs on the trombone but the sm57 sounded the best.
 
SM57, its a mic you can use on everything. percussion, horns, guitars, voice, whatever, it will work really well for anything home level and better.
 
Howdy....I've used the 57's for recording both trumpet and trombone and they both came out great. Actually I recorded a punk/ska band just the other day and managed to get ahold of an AKG 414 for the brass.....and I'm totally stoked (sounds the same as the brass sounds Ryan Greene pulls on NOFX and Mad Caddies records) I know that the 414 is way out of most peoples price range.....but if there is ANY way you can either borrow or hire one I promise you won't be disappointed

Brad
 
alright....thanks for the input. Ill see what I can come up with. Probabaly going to have to go for the SM57, but like the last guy said, maybe I can find a 414 to borrow, or rent. thanks...
 
I've used the 57 on tbone and was very impressed with the results. Not real pretty or detailed, but the result seem to sit very nicely in a mix.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Im a trombone player, and my main type of music is ska. 57 does work good if thats all you got. But i really like to use the AT4033 on the horns. Its about $350 with shipping at most places and its a great all around mic. For position, i recommend being about 3 meters away from the mic. You shouldnt have a problem that far back with pointing it directly at the mic. However, if your trombone player is a load player you might want to bring the mic a half a foot from the bell. Some people say to then point it up towards the bell but i found that that gives a really weird sound on horns. Keep the diaphragm straight forward just off axis of the SPLs and you should do alright.

This same position might work for with the 57 also. I recommend having it back a way from the mic to let the bass frequencies form. You might have to use some compression also to make it stand out some. Also, the AT4033 (Audio Technica) is very good with vocals too and just about everything. The 57 is great for recorded guitar cabs so if you can afford both i would recommend it.

as far as trumpets go, you could probably get a little closer to the mic (if the player is not extremely loud). The trumpet does not have as many low frequencies as the trombone.

Oh, one more thing i should mention. Your room will be a huge aspect on how far you can be from the mic. I recommend throwing up some blankets, sleeping bags, bed foam, etc to try and deadin the sound a little bit if are having problems.

Good luck.

Darnold
 
Hmm, i guess i could post an example

heres a recording i did a while ago. It took me forever to find the right position with the mic. And i couldnt decide if i should use the AT4033 or a 57. First of all, i played really loud on this, so i could give a really bity sound which is why it was hard to find a good position for the mic. My room is also pretty dead. This might not be the sound you want for your project because its not a really big sound. but take a look.



and i used the AT4033, at about 3 meters back, and about 1 foot down from the bell.
 
Another thing to remember is that after you've recorded the trumpet/trombone, and you're mixing, There is nothing that will bring the brass to life more than some good reverb. It really adds the sheen that they need. Im not a fan of dry brass

`Link
 
ey thanks guys. Ill go try that mic placement right now. as for the mic, I really cant afford the AT, but Id like it someday. The recorder Im using has a mic simulator but I dont think that was one of the mics listed. Ill check it out. thanks again
 
Also, dont forget about the C1. I havnt tried that with horns yet (im planning on it someday) but i hardly have a doubt it will do good. Its only about $230 too with shockmount, and aluminum case. Its a great tube mic for the money that will also do great on your vocals. Like i said i dont own this mic myself, but from what i have heard, it is a great mic.

Also, a technique i have heard that works good is with a boundary mic. I dunno how much these cost but i dont think they are too much for a good one. THen all you need is a fiberglass board. Angle the board at about 45 degrees facing the mic. then have the player play towards the fiberglass board. The boundary mic will pic up the reflections and i have heard it works wonderfully.

One more thing i would like to add. Make sure you try and throw up some nice thick blankets, sleeping bags, etc, and try and put maybe a bed matris in the corner of where you are aiming the bell of the horn (especially on trombone). Probably the biggest problem your gonna have is the reflections of the bass frequencies from the trombone going back into the microphone. If you cant tame the bass frequencies, then go easy on the blanks and stuff. Leave some dry flat wall for some diffusion or you will have unbalance from not getting enough highs.

Darnold
 
mmmmm - to be honest, I'd never use something like a 57 on any brass instrument, it simply sounds to sharp and midrangy.
Especially if you use horns in harmony for ska, you want a much fuller, bigger sound than that.

I can recommend Audio Technica's ATM35, especially for live applications. Another good and afordeable horn mic is the Sennheisser E 608. Both in the studio and live I mainly use the ATM35's.
In the studio, when using the ATM35's, I will also use one or more tube mics at a respecteable distance (depending on room ambiance). Having the instruments close milked as well as the more ambiant sound give you ideal material for a good sounding horn mix.
 
Actually I recall Ryan Greene (recording god for NoFx, Mad Caddies, etc.....in other words heaps of ska and punk stuff) saying that he likes to use the ATM 25 for "harsh" brass. Haven't tried one myself on trumpet or trombone as yet. I'm still revelling in the magnificance of the 414 for trumpet......mmmmmm, looooove that sound, and I don't even need to touch an EQ
 
I'm not sure what the ratio of ska is to punk in the band...

but with the more traditional ska bands, I think a lot of those recordings are done with the horn section on 1 mic.

I've heard a lot of recordings where you could clearly tell that they horns were recorded with seperat horns on seperate tracks and it sounded extremely unrealistic.

If you're doing several songs, I'd mix it up a bit to see what sounds best. Try using one condensor on one song. On another, put two 57s in an X pattern and record the horns in stereo. Then try giving each their own mic and track.

I've seen pics of the Scofflaws recording and they all played into the same mic.

DP
 
Recording into one mic is a definite option. I tried this once but wasn't particularly pleased with the result. There always tended to be one instrument overbearing while the others were quieter.....no matter how many times I moved them around the mic. If you have time to get placement (of musician and mic) right this is definitely an option, but honestly....for the kinda music you're talkin about (of which Im an ENORMOUS fan) you are way better micing the brass seperately, This will give you more control over both instruments, with both EQ, compression and level. Afterall, you're dealing with only trumpet and trombone here, not an entire mammoth brass section, so Im assuming that you have enough tracks to accomodate the trumpet and the bone..

Good luck, let us know how you go with it!! :)

`Link
 
Phantom power

I know you're using a roland VS840 (see my reply in the roland forum), so be aware that many of the mics mentioned above (C414, AT4033 etc.) are condensors, and so need phantom power, which your recorder can't provide. An external preamp or small mixer is needed for this (I use a mackie 1402 VLZ with an 840ex).

Steve
 
Hey thanks everyone for the advice. I went to the store to pick up an SM57, but picked up an EV instead. The guy told me to try it out and see how I liked it. It is basically the same thing I guess. SO far it sounds pretty good. I got some padding, and had the horns stand about 7-8 feet back from the mic. First I tried them seperately, and each sounded great. Next I put two mics there and had both horns play together and recorded onto a stereo track. This produced amazing results. The players seem so much more confident when they play together. DOwnside is that you cant isolate each sound then. I talked to the trumpet player for my favorite band(link80) and he says they usually both play at the same time, and usually double that up and add a little reverb to one track. He says they use studio AKGs, Im assum;ing the 414. He also said an SM57 will produce great tone. ANyways, thats where I stand for now. We will keep working and see what happens. thanks again
 
Hey there :D

Good stuff, Good to see your happy with the results. What EV mic did you end up getting? is it a condenser.??

You should try getting the brass close to the mic. I literally had the trumpet and trombonest sit about 2 ft away from the AKG.....gives the sound a lot of punch.

take care
Link
 
The EV is an ND267 or something on that order. Its not top of the line stuff, but sounds good for the money I spent. Youve got to remember, Im the only one in my band with a job, the rest are in college, and Ive got some big bills to be paying, so nothing too elaborate yet. Its not a condenser. I havent tried having the horns play into the mic yet. Thats what we have done in the studio, and when we tried 4track recording a year ago, but I figured Id try what the guy up there said and stand back a ways. This weekend I will have them stand closer. Once we get something down, Ill try to post it and let you hear it and tell me what to fix. Thanks again
 
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