Ska brass

  • Thread starter Thread starter StAbZ
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if he has a good horn, strength and confidence. he may not be able to play or improvise the same speed, but that's not what the issue is about...
 
StAbZ said:
if he has a good horn, strength and confidence. he may not be able to play or improvise the same speed, but that's not what the issue is about...
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that's crap. go and listen to a highschool marching band at an upperclass highschool. a sophomore may have access to the most expensive trumpet, sax, clarinet, flute, tuba, drumset in the world....and play loud and be confident he's hitting the right notes, but if his tone, technique, pitch, etc. is off...he'll sound like shit. that's what separates the pros from the novices. why else do you practice? if technique doesn't matter...why do scales? if tone doesn't matter, why do long tones? if improvisation doesn't matter, then why practice your chordal patterns?? brass instruments are one of the hardest instruments to master in my opinion. why do you think the pros practice forever just trying to get the right technique down so they don't crack when they go from note to note?

that in mind, a great player can make a crappy horn sound good too. charlie parker gave a jaw-dropping performance with Joe Timer's orchestra in 1953 where he played on a plastic saxophone.
 
StAbZ said:
ur wrong, nickel bells are brighter than brass, gold brass bells are brighter than copper brass.... instruments sound different. also, if you played on a D trumpet instead of Bb the higher notes would sound a lot nicer. ofcourse instrument makes a difference, just because how easy it is to play doesn't change doesn't mean the sound doesn't also change. you can't hear what's coming out from a foot infront of you properly.
in ska music, it's not so much the technique the player has, it's the confidence, strength and how well the particular instrument projects that
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I never said I would sound the same on a D, C, picc, flugel as I would on a Bb.

I have plyed literally dozens of (Bb) horns. I sound pretty much the same on all of them. There are subtle differences, but they are subtle.

The instrument makes little difference to a pro, sorry.
 
bennychico11 said:
that in mind, a great player can make a crappy horn sound good too. charlie parker gave a jaw-dropping performance with Joe Timer's orchestra in 1953 where he played on a plastic saxophone.
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Exactly, my point. There are subtle differences, subtle to the point that the average listener would be hard pressed to tell the difference. Pros can tell the difference.

That isn't to say that a crap horn won't be more difficult to play.
 
fraserhutch said:
Exactly, my point. There are subtle differences, subtle to the point that the average listener would be hard pressed to tell the difference. Pros can tell the difference.

That isn't to say that a crap horn won't be more difficult to play.
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i have played on many bass trombones in my time playing in bands and orchestras and i can easily notice the difference in tone they give. for example, a besson sovereign bass trombone will give a much harsher sound than say... a holton, even if i use the same playing technique.
i bet if you use a nickel bach stradivarius trumpet and then use a copper brass jupiter trumpet you'll notice the difference, believe me, different instruments react differently
 
StAbZ said:
i have played on many bass trombones in my time playing in bands and orchestras and i can easily notice the difference in tone they give. for example, a besson sovereign bass trombone will give a much harsher sound than say... a holton, even if i use the same playing technique.
i bet if you use a nickel bach stradivarius trumpet and then use a copper brass jupiter trumpet you'll notice the difference, believe me, different instruments react differently
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Nah. I bet you not as much as you appear to think.

Anyways, whatever, your experiences are your own. You asked for our opinions and help, and you got it., What you do with it is up to you.
 
Bone player here. The sound of a horn player is just about the same as the sound of a guitar player or drummer for that matter. I have a couple selections of horns that i play on to fit the needs of whatever sound im trying to get, but i have a signature in my own tone that every one can recognize regardless of the horn i play. I have a buddy who has the EXACT same horn model and make as me. We play in an orchestra and their is no doubt a huge difference in our tone.

Even mouth peices make a huge difference. I happen to have very large lips which gives a little more of a brassy and a little more vibrant sound on a medium cup mouth piece. If i switched to a larger cup mouth piece my tone could become more closer related to someone with smaller lip size on a medium cup mouthpiece.

The instrument does make a pretty big difference on the sound. My medium bore trombone has a little more directive sound. It has many similiarities in actual timbre and tone its just projected differently. My large bore gives a little bit more of a room filling sound to fill up an orchestral hall. The basic tone and timbre is still there. But infact my orchestral horn is Silver plated and is natural brighter than the Medium Bore Brass Laquered horn. So it is actually a little brighter but projected more throughout the room.

Air is also a big part of the tone. And that usually has nothing to do with volume. I know that professionals probably use more air on their soft notes than a high school marching band kid uses on his fortissimos (theoritcally ;) ).

Anyway. Micing the horn can be pretty tough really. Ive played in many ska bands and ive found it a big challenge to get it right. Mainly because its hard to engineer for yourself i find. Ive mic'd other trumpet and bones with ease, but with me i always am just too picky :D.

Ribbon about 4 feet out, i would keep it on axis for the ska stuff. Ive also used a Neumann U87 about 6 feet out with good results, but maybe not exactly what you would be looking for. Never really liked the 421 up close technique although it works alright for live stuff.

Just takes alot of heavy duty mic placement.

Danny
 
Sorry, just wanted to add this. I do think the horns matter quite a bit on sound. There is definately a difference between different horns. But i know its not the major difference in timbre and tone. Ive even used my orchestral horn for some ska stuff that ive done.

Its kind of the same philosophy with microphones. Each microphone has a different color to it, and their could be 3 different microphones that work with a voice. The voice is really what is making the sound, but for certain situations you might use a bright microphone instead of the warm one on the voice. It just depends on what you need to come out in the mix.

Same thing really with trombones. The main voice, tone, timbre of the sound really comes from the player, but the horn is going to project the colors in a little bit different fashion.

Anyway im off to bed.

danny
 
darnold said:
Sorry, just wanted to add this. I do think the horns matter quite a bit on sound. There is definately a difference between different horns. But i know its not the major difference in timbre and tone. Ive even used my orchestral horn for some ska stuff that ive done.

Its kind of the same philosophy with microphones. Each microphone has a different color to it, and their could be 3 different microphones that work with a voice. The voice is really what is making the sound, but for certain situations you might use a bright microphone instead of the warm one on the voice. It just depends on what you need to come out in the mix.

Same thing really with trombones. The main voice, tone, timbre of the sound really comes from the player, but the horn is going to project the colors in a little bit different fashion.

Anyway im off to bed.

danny
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some back-up at last!
 
I just finished reading the rest of the debate with you two.

Actually thinking about it, i hear less of a difference with trumpets. Their is a difference but its not as big as the difference as horn selection with trombones. So maybe you two are debating subjects that have different relevance. I know for sure that when i change horns on my trombone it was a pretty big change. Even today i was doing tracking on the trombone and i switched horns for another color and it was a night and day difference. Same tone and timbre characteristics that i have, but one was alot less harsh than the other. I do recal many times having a few trumpet players switch horns in the studio and the changes were much less noticable. Definately a difference that any pro could hear, but the average listener probably wouldnt pick up on.

BTW, i thought gold was warmer than brass. I guess i was mistaken.

Its kind of like guitars. I dont think the actual brass laquer or silver plated changes the sound much. That is kind of minute. But the style and bore size of the horn might make a bigger difference. Say the style of two guitars are the same, both solid design and same geometric shape. But one has an out layer of mahogony and the other one has an outer layer of birch. Some say it makes a difference but its not a huge contrast. Now have make the birch guitar and make it semi hollow. The Birch, even though it is considered brighter, now is more resonate and considered warmer. The projection of it changes.

Kind of the same thing really. Nickel Plate vibrates much different than Brass Laquer so its naturally going to change the projection a little bit. Not much but a little.

Danny
 
Its about the equipment, the players the room and the microphones... If you really want great results - start with hiring guys thata know what they are doing - try using people that have many studio hours. Also use condenser or ribbon microphones. Make sure that the microphone is at least 1 foot away to prevent proximity effet. Use a multiband compressor on the mix to bring out the >2K frequencies. Use eq to slash muddyness at 500Hz. Use small bore instruments and finaly check us out at NewYorkBrass.com.... :)
 
Careful, Rami; it is apparently now politically incorrect to point out timestamps to people who have only had a few days to get acclimated to this board. :rolleyes:

G.
 
Well, you just revived a thread that was dead for 2 whole hours....so there. :D
 
If you noticed there hasnt been much brass discussion over the past 3 years....
 
newyorkbrass said:
If you noticed there hasnt been much brass discussion over the past 3 years....
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NYB, I feel your pain; I feel that there isn't a song recorded that can't be improved by the addition of a nice horn section (or at least a cowbell ;) :D), and I hope that your skills can come of some frequent use here. But the (to some of us, sad, but understandable) truth to this board and to much home recording in general is that there is a definite bias towards young headbanger garage bands whose musician line up rarely gets past a drummer, bass player, guitarist and screamer.

There are, of course many exceptions here from people who do neo-classical to smooth jazz to church choir to space synth and everything in-between, but they do remain exceptions in the definite minority here. This is why you haven't seen much brass discussion; there just isn't that large of a percentage of members here hungry for such info.

But stick around for a while, I'm sure you'll find your groove.

G.
 
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