Sitting vocal delays

S

sixer2007

New member
I tend to reach for a stereo delay more often than not for chorus sections of vocals. I like it over reverb because I feel that I have more control and it's a bit simpler in terms of taken space.

When listening to music, especially modern metal and rock (August Burns Red, As I Lay Dying, the almost, etc, etc) I can hear the effect that the delay is creating, but usually not the actual ping sounds unless there's a short musical break where the delay continues. The delays can create a deep and sometimes washy sound that sounds really nice.

I find that it sounds like reverb, but it's a delay! How are they doing that? I'm finding that once I bring up the delay, by the time I get the sounds I'm looking for on the vox, the delay pings are too much. I can hear them more than feel them.

Here's what I'm doing typically. What suggestions do you have to improve?
1. Set the stereo delay to the tempo. I often go for an 1/8 and a 1/4, panned hard L/R.
2. I roll off a good amount of high end. Sometimes as far down as 1.5k to darken it and try to push it back some.
3. Because I often use some sort of "blend verb" on most tracks, I run the delay output through that to make it sound similar to everything else.
4. Turn the send all the way down and slowly bring it in until it seems right, Maybe make some fine adjustments.

Any thoughts? I just can't seem to get the sound I hear elsewhere...

Thanks guys!
 
Huh. I'm not sure what your problem is, you're basically doing what I do to get a similar effect. I prefer the delay to reverb choruses too, so I know what you mean. =]

Do you want to post some examples of your mix and a professional recording that has the delay sound you're trying to imitate? Maybe that'll help us figure out what the problem is.
 
MrWrenchey said:
Do you want to post some examples of your mix and a professional recording that has the delay sound you're trying to imitate? Maybe that'll help us figure out what the problem is.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'll go ahead and do that when I'm back at my music computer. Check back again!
 
Yeah not successful with using reverb on vocals. Always sounds weak. Not sure about your problem. If you find out a good way of doing it, i'd like to know
 
Consider a mono delay perhaps. It's basically pure depth and movement behind the voc, 'stereo implies it has to be different on each side. You still can have to ride it but it's a simpler echo image to tuck in. Especially if you don't need the spread'.
In either case where the source is pointy', or the mix goes into more open parts where it's exposed -automation. I'd say fairly rare fx like that want to stay static.
 
mixsit said:
Consider a mono delay perhaps. It's basically pure depth and movement behind the voc, 'stereo implies it has to be different on each side. You still can have to ride it but it's a simpler echo image to tuck in. Especially if you don't need the spread'.
In either case where the source is pointy', or the mix goes into more open parts where it's exposed -automation. I'd say fairly rare fx like that want to stay static.
Click to expand...
Another option I have heard from like Bob Seger's mixes, one side is dry and the effect goes on the other.
 
Yup, mono delay. I too prefer delay over reverb for vocals for the same reasons you mentioned. I find that noticeable reverb on vocals sounds cheap and dated, unless of course that's what you're going for. One way to get that clean vocal with depth without going overboard with the delay repeats is to cut the feedback/effect way back so you only get the one repeat, or maybe one and a half. 1/4 or 1/8 notes with a matched tempo seems about right depending on the song. That's usually where I go with mine.
 
sixer2007 said:
...
3. Because I often use some sort of "blend verb" on most tracks, I run the delay output through that to make it sound similar to everything else.
Click to expand...
I was thinking about something else that falls in similar with your #3- having trouble with a delay not sitting right' I've tried using diffusion on the delay thinking the time spread and softer edges' might help. Fact is, in spite of what ever logic might be there, can't say it's worked out like that.
Just to say it can work out the same with the delay being dry vs wet'.
 
If you have separate control over repeats and feedback, a delay with a fairly short time (and in addition to the low pass I'd also high pass it to thin it out somewhat), coupled with a feedback mixed way behind that first delay might give you more of a "reverb" like sound.
 
Thanks for your help guys! There's some good ideas.

I have trouble with mono delays. I like them from time to time, but again, i can't get the sound I hear elsewhere. I wonder if maybe I'm just mixing them too loud. Same with the stereo ones.

I had an idea just a minute ago that I think I'll try... putting a transient shaper on the delay return and lowering the attack to knock down a bit of the spikyness. Has anyone tried anything like that before?

I still don't have access to post samples. I'm trying to get to that in a little bit.
 
sixer2007 said:
I had an idea just a minute ago that I think I'll try... putting a transient shaper on the delay return and lowering the attack to knock down a bit of the spikyness. Has anyone tried anything like that before?
Click to expand...

You could... but wouldn't a compressor be easier?
 
I'm running an analog setup (tascam 48 1/2" 8 track, various pres/mics, soundcraft delta board) and this what I do to set up a vocal delay + reverb:

1. adjust the aux send level for the individual track(s) you want to affect
2. solo the aux send master output level and make sure level is good and not too much
3. aux send feeds outboard analog tape machine with record engaged, monitoring from said tape machine's repro head (that would be "tape" not "source" on most 3-head decks), adjust for good level in and out
4. delayed track comes back from outboard tape delay to an empty channel on the board. eq as needed and set it where you like it, level-wise, in the mix
5. tape delay return channel can be set to on without feeding the l-r 2-mix. I usually send mine to a pair of busses
6. l-r buss pair feeds reverb.. in my case an akg bx-10 spring reverb
7. reverb outputs come back on another pair of faders, eq and set level to taste

Now your reverb channels are slightly delayed and will sit in the mix much more easily. I usually set the amount of reverb in the mix by stopping the tape abruptly and listening for the tail. I set it until I can *just* hear it.

If you also have the delayed track in the 2-mix you then have your slapback echo on that track, and the reverb on their tracks, but again the reverb is slightly delayed from the original sound, as it should be.

All of this explains how most reverb boxes have a pre-delay setting. Without pre-delaying the reverb it smooshes too much against the unaffected vocal tracks and lacks space to sit correctly. I just do it the old way is all. Every echo chamber pre-delays the tracks feeding the chamber.

Hope this helps.
 
Pre delay works wonders.

I'd also try side-chaining the delay/reverb off your vocal signal.

The process is basically to send your signal to a separate "send" channel

Once this is set up, place a side-chain compressor on that send channel, with the source of the side-chain set as the vocal track.

Use a fairly long release on the compressor (I normally use between 300-1000ms, dependent on tempo and how busy the track is)
Go for some significant gain reduction; 6-20dB. Experiment and use your ears!

It means that you won't hear the FX (delay/reverb) clouding the mix too much when everything's playing, but in between phrases, and during pauses, the delay/reverb will be audible.
 
I didn't read the entire thread, so may be a repost. I didn't see anyone mention automation. Set the delay as a send, then automate the send so that it swells in the parts you want and fades out nicely and can't be heard to muddy everything up when it's not needed.
 
i like to use both to get a smoother delayed effect. one layer of reverb, with a layer of delays (without verb) brought up underneath it until the individual pings of each delay are just barely inaudible.
 
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