SIR and Sonar problem

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lostinspice
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I have just been reading an article about this in the UK in Computer Music NOV 2003. The effect that you are all describing of latency being introduced by VSTi instruments is due to the lack of PDC (Plug-in delay compensation) and is introduced by the various VST-DX wrappers. Although Sonar uses PDC for all native DX plugins, at present, with the wrapper, PDC is not implemented. Hence the tedious need to manually offset that track. In the review of Sonar 3 (p93) the reviewer says "The good news is that PDC will soon be implemented ... within the next two upgrades" (of the CW VST-DX Adapter). I am intruiged to learn if the DirectX-iser wrapper really does support PDC or whether the Sonar code needs to support this feature too, in order for the latency compensation to work.
 
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Directixer 2.5 !!!

Have anybody tried this latest version of Directixer with
SIR? They say it will include full PDC , so SIR should
work too without enermous latency!
 
Okay... I just have a question about SIR:

Where do I get the Impulse Responses? Do they have to be pre-made or can I use some of my own?

Anybody out there use WinMLS?
 
here

here

Those are a couple of places...and Moskus, you can make your own, but only if you share them with us!! Kidding. These were all made by different people, so go for making some yourself.

This conversation is getting interesting to me!
-Kirstin
 
kgirl72 said:
Moskus, you can make your own, but only if you share them with us!!
Of course I will share them. That's part of my work, measuring Impulse Responses for rooms. :)

I just have to figure out the format. :)
 
Yeah, I have no idea how to do any of that...the noisevault forum can answer your question pretty quick, I'm sure. Those guys are the ones making all those impulses, so you might want to hop over there for a second!
-Kirstin
 
Great! Right now I'm looking through my meassures to see if I can get WinMLS to export them as waves... :)
 
well, I didn't try it in sir, but it sounds like it should...compared to all the others I have listened to as wavs.

-Kirstin
 
That's an impulse response I just measured of our "big" meeting room. The reverbration time is 0,47 sec (if you wondered about that). :)
 
I did not know what the RT was on that, but it sounded shorter than many of the others. Last night, i was just listening to the impulses on their own to see how each one sounded. Pretty cool you hear it's character...if you can just imagine replacing that crash static sound with something more musical. :)

Cool! Go find some cool places to make impulses of, would ya?

Hee hee.
-Kirstin
 
kgirl72 said:
Go find some cool places to make impulses of, would ya?
I'm digging up old measurements right now. :)

I did many measurements in Stavanger Concert Hall last summer. I hope I find the Impulse Responses.
 
Seems like I contribute to this thread once every 12 hours.

Zikes, I am using DirectiXer 2.5, so it appears the claim of latency compensation is true. http://www.tonewise.com/DirectiXer/

Even though I've figured out how to work offline, I'd still like to know if there is some sort of magic bullet setting for getting SIR to work in an aux buss.

kgirl72, you said you were using it in that way but got latency. What latency slider setting did you use? I'm just trying to get it to play in the aux buss without the audio engine shutting down.

Anyone else? By the way, thanks to all for the great info streaming in.
 
well, on my laptop, yesterday, I couldn't get it to work in the aux buss either...I'm gonna read these posts again, and I'll try again, and write more in a few!
-Kirstin
 
Alright...I'm discovering some interesting things...Lostinspice, what soundcard are you using? Mine, right at the moment, is just the onboard Laptop card with yamaha codecs, and it can only be used in mme, so my experiments aren't going to be so great.

HOWEVER, I can use the aux buss...with noticeable latency. The latency in my aux buss is such that I hear the dry effect and then a slight delay before hearing the wet effect. It's not useful to me this way at all...but, like I said, until I can try this on my Layla, with the asio drivers I've been using...I am not sure if it will be as noticeable. See, I bring my laptop to work every day, as it is probably the nicest computer in our building, as we can't afford to keep our computers as updated as they should be. I bought this for school, and couldn't be happier. At home, I can hook mine up to the Layla with the PCMCIA card, but usually, I leave the Layla hooked up to my desktop...so until I can do this there, I will have some unanswered questions as far as my own setup and maybe yours.

If I have my buffers in the audio panel down to 2, then the lowest latency this card can get it 10ms. The SIR makes my computer drop out at this point. It won't work AT ALL. Now, if I set the buffers to 4, and the latency at the lowest setting moves to 30, and now I can use it, but it's still stuttering. The higher I move either the buffers, or the latency slider, I get better sounding performance, but the latency is exactly the same, at least to my ears, in that the delay time between dry and wet signal does not appear to get longer or shorter, whether I change any of these settings, or the milliseconds buffer setting in the global panel.

So, the effect may just not work in the aux buss properly, no matter what you do. Now, if you stick it in the A (main stereo) or in the track as an insert, then it seems to work fine. I'm kind of assuming at this point, that since no matter what I did with the latency sliders in the audio dialog panels, the only thing that improved was the quality of the sound, not the actual latency, that on my home computer, likely, the same result will happen. but, maybe the asio driver or wdm driver would make a difference here.

As far as plugin delay compensation...I'm not sure I understand what this is exactly, since we seem to have two different types of latency with the SIR, depending on what kind of insert you use it as. So, if I were to buy the DirectiXer today, and it has plugin compensation...is anyone getting this to work with the aux buss? Or, is the plugin delay compensation just something to avoid putting the sample slide an all the OTHER tracks.

Would it help to make some mp3s today, of real short piano clip and you can hear the difference between the aux buss and the insert and the 2 buss? (or A---now I have some new lingo :D )
I've got the setup pretty much ready to mixdown if you want me to. I'd have to put them on my nowhere site, but I have unlimited space there, so that's no problem. Let me know! I may just do it anyway and link to it. I just copied a couple of measures from some screwing around chords that got recorded into a new track, with 3 of the same tracks. One has the insert in the track, one is set up with sir on the aux, and the other would be soloed with the sir in the Abuss. I would solo each one, and title them. It also might be useful to hear some of them together, so we can see how things match up in actuality.

-Kirstin
 
Unsurprisingly, I suppose, this is something else I discovered...

If I mute the track with the aux effect send, and play both the track insert effect with an uneffected track, those two soloed tracks sound pretty much exactly like the aux send track...so I am hearing the 16384 samples either way. So, what I understand is if I had inserted the effect in a track, and did not put the sample slide delay plug on all the other tracks (or slide them manually) then I would hear something VERY similar to what I'm hearing now, except that the other tracks would not likely all be identical...just are in MY example.

Now, I bet if we get creative, we still may never figure out how to use it in the aux buss because you can't "apply" that effect...it's always in real time, and therefore you'll never get rid of that latency, unless of course my asio drivers make a difference, but I'm thinking they won't. So, will directixer compensate for this aux latency, or only for the need to delay the other tracks as a result of the 16384 sample latency of the Sir plugin?

I am thinking this way...if I want to blend the tracks, I would actually copy a track, make it 100% wet, and apply that effect. Do a delay slide on all the others, and then mix the dry and wet track as desired. Or, make sure I have the dry/wet ratio set exactly right before I apply the track. I'm liking the first idea better as you don't have to delete and reapply effects if you don't get it right the first try, you can just adjust the trim controls. If you want to put your already mixed mix into a certain space so that it is on all of your tracks, put Sir in the A buss.

What are y'all thinking? Hopefully not that I'm really stupid or insane!:D
-Kirstin
 
Okay, guys, I downloaded the demo version of DirectiXer, so I can try it versus the wrapper I'm using. When I'm installing it, do I want to install the midi loopback port? I thought I read somewhere I thought that with Sonar, you don't need to install that. Anyone know?

Thanks, if it works better, I'll buy it now, even though later when I upgrade to sonar 3, it will be a free inclusion. I don't really care...it might be awhile anyway.
-Kirstin
 
Hi kgirl72,

I see you got your 2-buss questions answered long ago !
I'm 're-mastering' (quotes in all my posts instantly imply at the garage level - not a putdown, just context - dig ?) some full mixes so I can either use SIR as a track insert on the single stereo track or across the mains or 2 buss. In sonar I think that is Main A which contributes to the mixdown.

In Cool Edit Pro the mains (Bus A - I think) do not contribute to the mixdown so I use SIR as an insert.

I've also used Cool Edit Pro to split out 4 frequency bands from a full mix and throw them into Sonar simulating the type of 4buss approach Middleman was talking about. A discrete multi-band EQ and Dynamics section. Each track there had a SIR on it - so there were 4 SIRs in parallel. 2 SIRs had a room loaded and the other 2 were there just providing PDC (plug delay compensation) - the stupid way !

I haven't tried the aux thing yet but will get to it soon - I would think you would more or less just want the wet sound ? At any rate I'm looking for that stereo SIR sound they were talking about on noisevault.co - I think it's the aux/effects sends they were using.

fun with SIR and PDC ! :)
kylen

PS I forgot to directly answer your question. Latency isn't an issue when using SIR on a track because SIR is on all of the tracks. When it's across the masterbuss (basically 2 buss) all of the tracks are going thru SIR there also so - no latency. I don't do the aux trick yet so I don't know about latency there.
 
I'm not sure how you mean, "cheaper than using and empty sir," but that is the slider we have been trying...Lostinspice said it worked great for him. But, you do have to put it on the tracks that DON'T have SIR on them. I just wish SIR could go in the aux buss, but I'm fearing that it will NEVER work properly due to the latency, especially if Sonar 3 is having the same problem there.

I would rather use SIR in the aux to save cpu power instead of putting it on individual tracks, thus having many circumstances of SIR open. But, really, anything we want to accomplish can be accomplished here...there are just some different steps to go about it, and some planning involved, I suppose.

So, cool either way. Anyone know if I'm to install the midi loopback port with the DirectiXer? In Sonar 2.2XL, that is?
 
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