Singing techniques - can i get help here?

[yiordanaki]

Oh my goodness.............

The world is certainly in a sorrowful state. SmellyFuzz, Don't you have anything better to do with your time than put people like me down and put yourself up on a pedestal?

I was merely asking for some hints - and thankyou to the people that gave me these. Very much appreciated.

I HAVE PUT SOME OF THESE SUGGESTIONS TO USE AND HAVE IMPROVED......... ( i guess smelly fuzz was wrong)

and why are you paying out on digia? Do you find it hard to believe that there actually might be someone out there who is .... wait for it........ this really is unbelievable.....a better singer than you!!!!!!

I in no way claim to be that someone - if talent was measured in self-image - you would be the king of every genre known to man.

Anyway back to the music - -(more important than peoples egos)

Chris - you briefly mentioned "exercises etc. "..... could you give me some examples - im eager to try anything.

Freaky - thanks for the suggestion mate - am trying......

RSM - excellent suggestion - and it can be used live as well - I'll pretend i have no mic. and yell at the person in the last row............ hehe -thanks mate.

yiordanaki

 

[smellyfuzz]

yiordanaki;

SmellyFuzz, Don't you have anything better to do with your time than put people like me down and put yourself up on a pedestal?

Wrong !

Sorry, you come hear for advice on a topic that you know nothing about & you pick and choose who to listened to. Unfortunately for you, your choice of mentors know about as much as you on this topic.

I'm not saying that I'm a better singer then anybody here, nor is it my objective to knock your newbee ass down. You posted a GREAT question & followed it with typical YOUNG ignorance.

I was merely asking for some hints

I gave you some hints, you refuse to accept them.

My point being, if you were to come here and ask for some hints on driving a car, & some fool said you should try to drive like this, wouldn't that be stupid ?

You can't teach someone how to drive from READING !!!!!!!!

The same go for correct singing technique!

I HAVE PUT SOME OF THESE SUGGESTIONS TO USE AND HAVE IMPROVED......... ( i guess smelly fuzz was wrong)

HOW WOULD YOU KNOW ?

I sang forever before lessons, I had no idea of what I was doing wrong.

There are a hundred things that you could do incorrectly, the only way to be sure is from proper lessons.

and why are you paying out on digia? Do you find it hard to believe that there actually might be someone out there who is .... wait for it........ this really is unbelievable.....a better singer than you!!!!!!

He may very well be a better singer then me. You missed the point completely though.
He was giving out BAD/WRONG Voodoo information, which you gobbled up as FACT!
Take his advice, you do not seem to be interested in the truth what so ever.
You are more interest in a QUICK FIX singing technique.
No such thing !!!!!!

I in no way claim to be that someone - if talent was measured in self-image - you would be the king of every genre known to man.

On HR.COM believe it or not their are people here that are actually experts.

YES EXPERTS !

Sjoko2 = Mixing, recording & mastering.
Bluebear Sound= Recording, studio ownership.
John Sayers = Recording Studio Construction
Harvey Gerst = Microphones
Smellyfuzz = Proper Singing Technique

The people above spent years on their craft, and have many times pointed out to new members thier incorrectness.(me included when I was new)
If you look hard enough, you will find someone more talented & knowledgeable.
There is always someone better, but for you to just dismiss me as egotistical because I WAS TRYING TO HELP YOUR SORRY ASS, just shows how young and stupid you really are.

Singing is all I really know, But I know it pretty good.
That is not an egotistical statement. If this were a guitar forum & I posted you'd be better off getting guitar lessons, you would have not been so eager to knock my advice & label me as egotistical.

Like staying in physical shape, or owning a business, EVERYONE is a self appointed expert.
Well this self appointed expert has 30 years of singing experience with 10 years of lessons behind him. I did not learn anything over night, but have learned a few things about singing.

GOOD LUCK,
Sean

 

[Chris Tondreau]

I gotta side with Sean "smellyfuzz" on this one. There is no such thing as a quick fix for vocal technique, and there is no substitute for a proper teacher. You can't learn to sing, drive a car, or perform karate, or swim from a book. These things are all very physical, and not very "information" oriented. You can buy a book, and get the information required to play guitar (to some degree...) and pull it off. You'll be able to do stuff. Physical technique is a whole other ball game.

As far as the exercises that I referred to, they are merely vehicles with which to practice the mechanics of the technique. I could write them down (me-ha-a-a; hay-ay-ay; ho-o-o) but they would mean absolutely nothing outside of the context of learning the actual technique with a proper instructor.

Sean...inhaling the voice involves visualizing a "pulling in of the breath" from in front of your face onto your hard palate. A hard palate will reflect a louder, more powerful sound than the soft palate, as a hard surface will always reflect a louder sound and a soft surface will always absorb sound. The air enters the head and goes up into the sinus cavities as it passes over (but not through) the vocal cords. The air passing over the vocal cords pulls air up from the lungs, and the air from the lungs passes through the vocal cords and also winds up in the sinus cavity. Visualize this.... two rivers flowing finally meet at a given point. The result will be a whirlpool where the two streams meet. The same happens with the voice. The stream of air coming off of the hard palate meets up with the stream of air coming up from the lungs, creating a whirlpool of air. This whirlpool of air occurs in the sinus cavities, creating resonance.

The air finally escapes through the nose. However, since the sound has already been created, and the resonance has already taken place in the sinus cavities, there is no nasal quality in the resulting tone.

Cool, eh?

Chris

 

[yiordanaki]

Fact - There is no such thing as a quick fix for singing, I totally agree, thats why i practice for hours and hours til it sounds decent.

Fact - As far as im concerned, you could be the most knowledgable, talented and learned vocalist on the planet and I still would rather get advice from someone with common courtesy.

This website is about helping other people with what you know and not paying out on others because of what they dont know.


Anyway thanks for your replys.........yiordanaki

By the way, i gave your song "expiration date" a listen. I assume thats you singing - not bad but what is going on at 2.32.......
The guitar was good at the end.

 

[Chris Tondreau]

yiordanaki - I smell your frustration. Reading back on your posts, I agree that you don't seem to be looking for a "quick fix." You alluded to your years of working at it. I used the phrase "quick fix" as it was used in the post(s) previous.

One thing that you will find in your pursuit of knowledge of singing technique is that there seems to be two schools of thought. One says that "as long as it works for you, it is a good technique." This is MOST typical of self-taught singers who happened to get good at it through little more than practice and determination. The other school of thought, particularly common among those who have studied the Bel Canto technique specifically, is that there is ONLY ONE proper way to sing - using the Bel Canto technique, for instance. Everything else is just doing it "improperly."

The grounds for differentiating proper from improper is that virtually any other technique leaves you prone to fatiguing your voice over shorter periods of time, and developing nodes over the long haul. Sure, Rod Stewart's "technique" has worked extraordinarily well for him - except that he has needed surgery on his vocal cords more than once. With Bel Canto (if used properly), there is NO stress on the vocal cords, and therefore, the development of nodes is next to impossible.

This thread seems to be a good instance of the two schools of thought going head to head with each other. There is never a winner in a philosophical battle.

Chris

 

[smellyfuzz]

HEY CHRIS,

I see that you have studied in great detail the mechanics of "Beautiful Singing".

I on the other hand, was taught the same method , but without all the ins & outs of what the body is doing.

Basically, my very first lessons were exercises that;

1) Concentrated on placement, out of the throat & in to the nasal cavity.

2) Getting the mouth wide open

3) Singing standing with my head tilted slightly upward ( I know this one is debated)

Of course their is the whole diaphragm thing, but to be honest, we rarely discussed it. My diaphragm was built up from exercises. Not a lot of talk. AND QUITE HONESTLY, I do not like all this talk about the diaphragm. YES, its important, but its not the holy secret of singing.

AFTER SOME YEARS;

I backed down the nasal placement.

It was at this point when "the book opened up" as my vox teacher said.
After I found perfect placement & learned how to move it from throat to nose when needed, advancement came quite quickly. My range expanded greatly. I could hold notes longer, the sound I was producing was rich & clear. Most of all, I was very comfortable producing sound.
At present I'm very hi tenor running a range from about low C to F# and G over high C on a really good day.

I'd also like to note that, I was trained by an Opera singer, BUT NOT AT ALL FOR OPERA.
My voice is a rock voice, and trained for pop/rock. Opera and Show singers have a much more fluent sound to their voice, much like a one stringed instrument scaling up and down the one string, nice & smooth.

I on the other hand trained for range. The sacrifice is that my voice is far more choppy then an opera singer, kind of like steps on a piano. Someone listening to my vox might guess I never had lessons, that fine with me.

Through the years of training we did discuss mechanics a bit but , never really in depth.

We did discuss often all the BAD, BAD information that was out there.

This is going to sound cliche but, he did teach at Juilliard in the 50's & early 60's.
He told me HORROR stories of vox teachers instructing students in the most devilish of manners that he witnessed first hand.

One story was, a student was instructed to yell out an open window until the a person across the street in another apartment could hear him. In Manhattan ! GOD !

Another story, The instructor used a Speculum ( tool used to open a vagina) in the mouth of a student and then told the student to sing.

THAT IS WHY I JUMPED ALL OVER THESE KIDS !
I KNOW MY RANTING FELL ON VERY DEAF EARS.

Not to boast my ego but, to stop the spread of detrimental advice.

Sean

PS.
yiordanaki,

You have every right to rip my song & performance apart, though you would be the first to give me a negative review on MY performance on that particular tune.

I have a suggestion, try singing to it.

 

[yiordanaki]

Hey mate,
That was not a negative review, I quite enjoyed it, although it is not a style i like much.
I was just wondering whether the note you sung at 2.32 was what you were going for or was it a little flat.? I'm being picky but i mean i can tell you're a perfectionist............

Chris, Thankyou for clearing that up, i can now see why smelly fuzz (and probably myself) is being so stubborn!!
--- Bel Canto Propaganda.......hehe

Anyway now that you have both asserted singing dominance over myself would i be able to ask a few more questions??

What are your views on falsetto??

smellyfuzz you said you have a 3.5 octave range, does that include falsetto?? also is 3.5 octaves considered a "very good" range??

yiordanaki

 

[Chris Tondreau]

What are your views on falsetto??

smellyfuzz you said you have a 3.5 octave range, does that include falsetto?? also is 3.5 octaves considered a "very good" range??

yiordanaki

Falsetto - I'll leave that to someone more qualified. I know that there is a place for it, but I don't know how it fits in with the Bel Canto technique, as I'm not at that level yet. Having learned the technique, I am totally sold on it, and try to stick as close to it as possible.

Range - 2 octaves is considered a good range. Most pop/rock stuff fits very easily within 2 octaves. Consider this.... a guitar from the lowest E string to the high E string at the 12th fret is three octaves. I've never met anyone who can reliably sing this entire range with good tone and reliability except my teacher. (he goes from low C to high C for his three octaves - no falsetto.)
Given that, 3.5 octaves, I would suggest, is probably not possible to achieve without falsetto.

 

[smellyfuzz]

Yiordanaki,

My falsetto sucks !
It can be taught thought. AND is a great thing to know.
Foolishly, I did not take advantage of learning how to sing in falsetto in my training days.
I dabbled a little with it, I know when properly trained, a good singer can go from full voice to false with no break in the vox of any kind. Cool eh ?


Chris;

Given that, 3.5 octaves, I would suggest, is probably not possible to achieve without falsetto.

Not that I'm bragging, but as I stated before, when I was training, I trained for range.

I do have a 3.5 range NO FALSETTO. This mind you is stretching, and really not good enough for performance. I can hit a good solid E, maybe F, above high C that is performance worthy.

Actually, I have on an occasion or two while at lessons practicing stretching scales have hit a B over high C, Just shy of 4 octaves. VERY, VERY rare days that has happened.
Women, have it made, their range is endless.

BTW, opera & show tenors stop a three, they do not train for higher, no need.
Once a tenor hit his 3rd, the work on the smoothness of the vox is needed.
My voice is NOT smooth like a show singer, I had to sacrifice that quality, for I wanted range at all cost. AND I got it, but the price is a loss of mellowness or genteelness of the voice.

My voice is not as pleasant to listen to as someone like Art Garfunkle, but I can scale almost 12 steps above him.

Sean

 

[Chris Tondreau]

I do have a 3.5 range NO FALSETTO. This mind you is stretching, and really not good enough for performance. I can hit a good solid E, maybe F, above high C that is performance worthy...

Women, have it made, their range is endless.

So let me get this straight.... You can sing a solid E, maybe F that is performance worthy. That would be an octave and a bit above middle C, right? (12th or 13th fret on the first string of the guitar...) No falsetto??!! I would be truly impressed to hear that.

Women don't have endless range. Their vocal cords tend to be shorter, and therefore capable of singing higher notes, but at the expense of lower notes. They usually bottom out a little below middle C.

Chris

 

[Sarah Green]

.

Women don't have endless range. Their vocal cords tend to be shorter, and therefore capable of singing higher notes, but at the expense of lower notes. They usually bottom out a little below middle C.

Chris

Women usually have a smaller range than men, if you take men's falsetto into account. The equivalent in a woman would just be called the "head" voice, or register, and this does generally bottom out, as you say, just below middle C for a soprano. Below that she must rely on her chest register in order to sing with any power. When singing in the middle of her range, an experienced singer learns to mix the two registers, hopefully without anyone hearing the join!

While the classical singer uses her head voice a lot, most rock and musical singers employ mainly chest registers, in a technique called "belting". I think good belting technique needs to be properly taught, otherwise it's easy to damage your vocal chords - certainly it's a lot more tiring. Not everyone can afford regular vocal coaching; to those that just want a few hints, I'd say, try to develop good breathing habits, i.e efficient breathing from the diaphragm, because this gives you good control over phrasing and intonation; warm up your voice before getting stuck into singing, by humming and singing a few scales for ten minutes or so; pay proper attention to the lyrics; don't smoke, don't take drugs or alcohol before a performance; above all, if something hurts your throat, you're doing something wrong, so stop.

My own credentials: I've been singing all my life (I'm 49), I take lessons from time to time, when I can afford them, otherwise I rely on the tips and exercises I've learnt since I was a child. Also, to counter someone's contention that you can't learn various skills just from a book (or an internet forum) I'm afraid I do just that all the time; I'm a self-taught (if not very good) guitarist and piano player, and I learnt to swim by watching others when I was 45.

Cheers!

 

[Chris Tondreau]

to counter someone's contention that you can't learn various skills just from a book (or an internet forum) I'm afraid I do just that all the time; I'm a self-taught (if not very good) guitarist and piano player, and I learnt to swim by watching others when I was 45.

One can gain the knowledge required to play piano, guitar, etc. from a book, internet site, etc. Technique is a whole other matter.... anything that is purely physical in nature, IMO, must involve hands-on instruction. So, you're suggesting that never having swam before in your life, you sat on the sidelines, watched a bunch of swimmers, jumped in, flailed about for a while, and are now on track for being as good as them?? Sorry if I seem like a sceptic here, but I am. There has to be more to it. Perhaps I should go watch some Bruce Lee movies.

>>posted by Sarah Green
"a few hints, I'd say, try to develop good breathing habits, i.e efficient breathing from the diaphragm, because this gives you good control over phrasing and intonation; warm up your voice before getting stuck into singing, by humming and singing a few scales for ten minutes or so; pay proper attention to the lyrics; don't smoke, don't take drugs or alcohol before a performance; above all, if something hurts your throat, you're doing something wrong, so stop. " <<

...excellent advice for one who has not, for whatever reason, chosen not to pursue a solid technique!!

Chris

 

[yiordanaki]

Thanks Sarah and Chris.

Very helpful, I'm going to try and concentrate on my breathing alot more from now on. Just found out my range is about 3.5 octaves (with falsetto), so i guess the main thing i'll work on now is clarity and sound.

Also, I'm only 19 at the moment so will my voice improve much just by nature.???? i.e. Is a more "mature" sound something that just comes naturally?

All this lesson talk has also made me seriously consider getting lessons, Thanks
yiordanaki

 

[Barometer]

Lessons are great. It's much easier to have an educated singer with you watching your technique, your breathing, your diaphragm, chest, throat, jaw and cheeks. Singing is about all these things working together properly to get the best results. Just like anything else, the basics have to be there in order to get the most out of your talents.

I'm not sure what you mean about "improving by nature". Your voice may deepen some as you mature, but you ultimately have control over how you sing, especially if your range is 3.5 octaves. I think if you find the right teacher and they "open you up" for lack of a better term (get your breathing correct, diaphragm control, open throat and mouth, etc), you'll find that your voice will find it's own place.

Sorry I can't offer anything about certain methods like the others, that's why I waited to post. I got alot of good info from this thread and it reflects alot of what my teacher is instructing me now. Good Luck

 

[Sarah Green]

One can gain the knowledge required to play piano, guitar, etc. from a book, internet site, etc. Technique is a whole other matter.... anything that is purely physical in nature, IMO, must involve hands-on instruction. So, you're suggesting that never having swam before in your life, you sat on the sidelines, watched a bunch of swimmers, jumped in, flailed about for a while, and are now on track for being as good as them?? Sorry if I seem like a sceptic here, but I am. There has to be more to it. Perhaps I should go watch some Bruce Lee movies.

>>posted by Sarah Green
"a few hints, I'd say, try to develop good breathing habits, i.e efficient breathing from the diaphragm, because this gives you good control over phrasing and intonation; warm up your voice before getting stuck into singing, by humming and singing a few scales for ten minutes or so; pay proper attention to the lyrics; don't smoke, don't take drugs or alcohol before a performance; above all, if something hurts your throat, you're doing something wrong, so stop. " <<

...excellent advice for one who has not, for whatever reason, chosen not to pursue a solid technique!!

Chris

Well, did I say I don't want to pursue a good technique?

I'm not music college trained, but I've had lessons on and off since I was about 8 years old. I'm a classical busker, I do what I do to pay for scores and the odd lesson. But I appreciate that not everyone can afford regular voice training, certainly not at £20 per hour, or the dollar equivalent, and besides, if no one sang without "proper" instruction, the world would be a silent place. I was sung to as an infant by my mother, father and grandmother - none of whom had ever been taught how.

As for swimming: I was a total water phobic. I didn't sit on the side, someone persuaded me to get in and put my head under the water. That was the extent of my formal training. I don't claim to be particularly good or fast, but I've a reasonably competent breast-stroke now; I watched better swimmers and tried to copy their technique. I swim about half a mile twice a week, and I think I'm still improving. Incidentally, the knock on effect is an improvement in my stamina as a singer, I would recommend it to other singers.

Sarah

 

[Chris Tondreau]

Well, did I say I don't want to pursue a good technique?

Incidentally, the knock on effect is an improvement in my stamina as a singer, I would recommend it to other singers.

Sarah

First, good point about the swimming. I believe that, as a singer, anything that affects your body also affects your voice. This includes diet (or in my case, lack thereof... ), sleep (or lack thereof....), and overall general health. Swimming would certainly improve one's general fitness, and therefore would quite reasonably be expected to improve one's overall health. Also, the relationship between singing, swimming and your lungs is pretty obvious. Your lungs, being much healthier, and more capable of more control, I suspect would certainly benefit a singer.

You never did say that you didn't want to pursue good technique. All I was suggesting was that the technique part of things, being a wholly physical construct, cannot be learned in a book. As a classical guitar player, I know that you can look at all the pictures of right and left hand positions in all the method books in the world, but unless you have someone regularly "spotting" you, you won't know if you're doing it right or not. The pictures and descriptions vary from method book to method book for a variety of reasons - camera angle, the relative technique of the author (Mel Bay is not a classical guitarist... Aaron Shearer is a classical guitarist, but there are some problems with his description of technique...), etc. Singing is even harder to write about or show pictures of proper technique.

Chris

 

[Sarah Green]

... All I was suggesting was that the technique part of things, being a wholly physical construct, cannot be learned in a book. As a classical guitar player, I know that you can look at all the pictures of right and left hand positions in all the method books in the world, but unless you have someone regularly "spotting" you, you won't know if you're doing it right or not. The pictures and descriptions vary from method book to method book for a variety of reasons - camera angle, the relative technique of the author (Mel Bay is not a classical guitarist... Aaron Shearer is a classical guitarist, but there are some problems with his description of technique...), etc. Singing is even harder to write about or show pictures of proper technique.

Chris

I'm a rotten guitarist, and an even worse pianist, so I won't dispute your argument about the value of lessons. But, if sufficiently driven, I think it's possible to build on quite a small initial teaching base, supplementing what you have learnt with books, listening to other singers, taping yourself plus ruthless self-criticism, etc. My daughter has sung in competitions, and I found the adjudicator's comments to the contestants really helpful and interesting. ( I was considered "gifted" as a child, but I didn't pursue music as a career, only returning to singing seriously about three years ago.)
Also, while the best teachers inspire you, beware of the bad, and bear in mind that no two teachers are the same.
My daughter's first coach told her she was a contralto, when she is in fact, a high soprano. Her next coach, Millie, who also taught me for a time, specialized in musicals, and she was brilliant. When Millie left town we found a classical teacher, who knows everything about bel canto, but seems unable to dramatize a song. At my daughter's drama school the teachers seem to value belting above everything else, and her range is suffering from neglect...

all for now.

Sarah

 

[Chris Tondreau]

Also, while the best teachers inspire you, beware of the bad, and bear in mind that no two teachers are the same.

Excellent advice - for anyone considering instruction in anything, really! It is very important that you shop for a teacher and find one who is able to fill your needs for what you want to learn. I said in another post somewhere that I know a guy who teaches the Bel Canto technique here in Ontario, Canada who has someone coming up from the south-western U.S.A. to study with him. I know another guy who went to Italy for six months and did not find anyone who taught Bel Canto, so returned to Canada to study here. There are many people who claim to use Bel Canto (and who claim to teach it...), but there seems to be a good deal of disparity between what people perceive to be involved in the Bel Canto technique. Most do not teach/practice the inhalation of the voice. Those that do will generally insist that the true Bel Canto technique absolutely requires this inhalation to be a part of it. Those who do not teach/practice the inhalation of the voice generally have a more broad perception of what the technique means. Who is right? Guess that's a philosophical arguement, so no point in debating there. It is my belief, of course then, that the Bel Canto technique does involve the inhalation of the voice.

If a person wanted to learn this facet of the technique, they would have to do a great deal of shopping around, because it is my understanding that MOST teachers do NOT teach this, even though they will tell you that they teach Bel Canto. Interesting....

One thing, though, is that with Bel Canto, there is always a balance - always a mixture of head and chest resonance (never one nor the other exclusively), always a balance between projection and range (never one at the expense of another - they are built simultaneously), etc.

Chris

 

[Balshazza]

i have to disagree with ALL of you, well most.

I have NEVER had a guitar lesson in my life, yet i can play the guitar pretty damn well and i also play bass. now im not saying im tommy emanuel or anything, and i know what your thinking...."This guy owns a magical guitar".....but i taught myself from listening to songs and figuring them out, and also more recently through tablature. id say thats the equivalent of a book.

If you want to sing opera, then good on you, go get some lessons cause your gonna need them. But do you think the guy from Blink 182 ever had a lesson in his life? yet he has song cool songs(apparently). Also ACDC?? come on. and country singers??? dont even get me started on country singers, they put on a southern accent and sing about their sister(which is also their mother) having an affair with their best friend AND CALL IT MUSIC!!!!

sorry...where was i?

oh yes....

stay out of my money box!!


peace balshazza

 

[Sarah Green]

i have to disagree with ALL of you, well most.

I have NEVER had a guitar lesson in my life, yet i can play the guitar pretty damn well and i also play bass. now im not saying im tommy emanuel or anything, and i know what your thinking...."This guy owns a magical guitar".....but i taught myself from listening to songs and figuring them out, and also more recently through tablature. id say thats the equivalent of a book.

If you want to sing opera, then good on you, go get some lessons cause your gonna need them. But do you think the guy from Blink 182 ever had a lesson in his life? yet he has song cool songs(apparently). Also ACDC?? come on. and country singers??? dont even get me started on country singers, they put on a southern accent and sing about their sister(which is also their mother) having an affair with their best friend AND CALL IT MUSIC!!!!

sorry...where was i?

oh yes....

stay out of my money box!!


peace balshazza

There are lots or fine, self-taught musicians (wasn't Wagner one?). Unfortunately most people tend to plateau early without input from a teacher. And bad habits my limit your style as a pianist or guitarist, which may not matter much, but damage to your vocal chords can't be undone that easily, if at all. MANY rock and pop singers end up unable to sing at all after a few years of what amounts to vocal abuse.
Anyway, successful performers often take instruction at some point in their careers, and most will acknowlege that you have to work harder at it as you get older. I remember hearing Joan Baez tell an interviewer that once she hit 40 she learnt the wisdom of warm-ups; at age 20 she would never have bothered, singing just came naturally then.

Regards, Sarah.