Singing in pitch

[chamelious]

I don't get why i have such a problem with this, and i find it very frustrating that some people are able to just do it

A couple years ago i was pretty much tone deaf, when learning the guitar i didn't know some songs were in different tunings and just played in standard, and couldn't hear the difference.

After years of practise my ears gotten a lot better, i can identify intervals and chords with pretty much 100% accuracy. (i sit and use the interval and chord ear trainer at http://www.trainear.com/ at work.)

But i still have major problems pitching stuff correctly. I record myself regularly and when i listen back, its MOSTLY in tune but theres always all sorts of little bits where its slightly out.

I have a decent range of nearly 4 octaves, i practise stuff like 5 note scales with a piano, sirens for warm ups, ensure i'm breathing from my diaphragm.

To boot, even when i record myself singing something bang on in pitch, it still sounds terrible. Like the tone of it. However i don't really care, i'm almost ready to accept there's nothing i can do to change this.

Can anyone offer any advice? I consulted a singing tutor and explained i had problems pitching, his response was "ah no problem soon solve that with some ear training". I've been ear training for ages, it doesn't help.

 

[Manslick]

Hard to speak to your particular problem.

Many people just have an ear for music from childhood. All my kids and grandkids can just sing in what sounds to me like perfect pitch.

I sang in the choir and grew up in a home where music was on almost constantly. Both parents sang.

I’m not perfect by any means but when I want to sing something tight I will use a tuner and it feels unnatural because what to me feel right, the tuner says no, so I train whatever muscles it takes to make the pitch correct.

As far as the timbre of your voice goes, well you’re born with that. Some people can mimic other singers like comedians who do other actors and whatnot.

Like anything, practice practice practice.

Have you been diagnosed for amusia?
http://medgadget.com/archives/2006/03/online_amusia_t.html

 

[Strat1958]

I personally think that if a person is "tone deaf", ie: you can't hear the difference when playing in one key and singing in another, or can't really tell when you're singing wrong notes, then there is no real hope of learning your way into being a good singer.

I am not a great singer by any stretch - but the instant I sing a note that's even a half semitone 'off', I hear it right away, and cringe internally. If recording, I stop and do it over. I don't need to listen to the playback to hear a problem.

I have a friend who can't even remotely sing Happy Birthday - it's utterly terrible, and seemingly random - and he thinks he's perfectly in tune, can't hear a problem. That's being tone deaf, and I don't believe it can be unlearned.

This is all IMHO, I'd be interested to hear what others think.

-Mike

 

[chamelious]

I personally think that if a person is "tone deaf", ie: you can't hear the difference when playing in one key and singing in another, or can't really tell when you're singing wrong notes, then there is no real hope of learning your way into being a good singer.

I am not a great singer by any stretch - but the instant I sing a note that's even a half semitone 'off', I hear it right away, and cringe internally. If recording, I stop and do it over. I don't need to listen to the playback to hear a problem.

I have a friend who can't even remotely sing Happy Birthday - it's utterly terrible, and seemingly random - and he thinks he's perfectly in tune, can't hear a problem. That's being tone deaf, and I don't believe it can be unlearned.

This is all IMHO, I'd be interested to hear what others think.

-Mike

I'm not about to disagree with you categorically. But i'd say from experience i've been able to go from somewhere around your friends level, to somewhere a bit below yours. When listening to others i can hear small inaccuracy as you say, and when listening back to mine. The problem comes in hearing as i sing.

I think i've discovered part of my problem, playing random notes on a piano and trying to sing them, i struggle. I need to work on this i'd say.

 

[Washburn100]

To boot, even when i record myself singing something bang on in pitch, it still sounds terrible. Like the tone of it. However i don't really care, i'm almost ready to accept there's nothing i can do to change this.

Can anyone offer any advice? I consulted a singing tutor and explained i had problems pitching, his response was "ah no problem soon solve that with some ear training". I've been ear training for ages, it doesn't help.

I'm not sure what to make of this thread?

I have been playing guitar for over 30 years. Can I play the Eddie Van Halen solo from Eruption - no.

So does that mean I wasted 30 years of guitar playing?

I think I sing well and like my voice. Do I try to sing Zeppelin songs - no.

For me, there are songs that I CAN play and sing very well. I also have written stuff that I do better than ayone else. It's mine so I can say that.

Everyone has talents and everyone has liabilities. Find what you do best, what you like, and don't worry about what you can't do.

 

[chamelious]

I'm not sure what to make of this thread?

I have been playing guitar for over 30 years. Can I play the Eddie Van Halen solo from Eruption - no.

So does that mean I wasted 30 years of guitar playing?

I think I sing well and like my voice. Do I try to sing Zeppelin songs - no.

For me, there are songs that I CAN play and sing very well. I also have written stuff that I do better than ayone else. It's mine so I can say that.

Everyone has talents and everyone has liabilities. Find what you do best, what you like, and don't worry about what you can't do.

Thanks for your post. However i'm not really sure what your point is.

What i do and want to do is write songs, play guitar, and sing backing in my band. (You can hear the results of these 3 in the link in my sig)

What i want to do is improve on them all. My practise habits are doing me fine for guitar, i was after some advice on the vocals is all.

 

[Lt. Bob]

well the tone of your voice is something that you might not hear like others do.
One of my main things right now as I earn my living from gigging is my singing. It's the main thing I get hired for with regard to my single gig and I get major compliments on my voice all the time but when I hear it on recordings I just cringe.
I HATE the tonality of my voice but no one else seems to.
So I think that it's pretty common to hear your voice on a recording and think it doesn't really sound right.
As for the pitch issue ....... sounds like you're making some progress so keep at it.
That's really all you can do.

 

[Bristol Posse]

I could never get how I could sing other peoples songs OK but had problems with my own.

Then I figured out that it was because I know those other peoples song really well, had sung them probably thousands of times (in the car, shower, etc etc).
My own songs I wrote and then recorded a week later

for me rehearsing like a maniac is helping me as is not being quite so gung ho to record as soon as I have a song written. Making scratch tracks to sing along to aside from actual "real practice" time, so that when I come to record I really know my material too. The muscle memory is there and I'm not struggling to remeber the melody or the lyrics while I'm singing.

This is my experience, yours may vary

EDIT
It's also worth remembering some of the greatest songs ever recorded were not pitch perfect/ It's only fairly recently that there has been this fascination with pitch perfect records that really rely on comping multiple takes and pitch correction software to achieve and never actully existed in the real world.
Even fantastic singers hit an off note every now and then. I think it can add character so long as it is not every note

 

[dintymoore]

Awareness is real important. If you're in touch with the rest of the band while you sing it's hard to go off pitch, or off time. There's no short cut for that and sometimes it takes many years.

Seth Rigg's teachings really helped me and he is dead on as far as technique. His concept of speech level singing really helped me. He sells his courses and has some YouTube stuff.

Breathing right is crucial to singing in good pitch. You can't be running out of breath at the end of notes. When you breath in it should feel like you're breathing through your navel and when you're full of air it should look like you're 9 mos pregnant. That's correct. Incorrect is breathing in and looking like Superman with your chest popped out.

I didn't really like my voice through a mic until I used Neumann mics, I found that that was the sound I wanted.

 

[NYMorningstar]

When you breath in it should feel like you're breathing through your navel and when you're full of air it should look like you're 9 mos pregnant. That's correct. Incorrect is breathing in and looking like Superman with your chest popped out.

What benefit does it have to push your stomach out?

 

[gecko zzed]

What benefit does it have to push your stomach out?

It lowers the diaphragm and sucks more controllable air into you.

 

[NYMorningstar]

It lowers the diaphragm and sucks more controllable air into you.

I was taught to breath by lowering my diaphragm and expanding my lower back which does expand your stomach slightly too. That was from a TKD and running perspective though. It does seem to give me more strength that way than belly breathing. I guess either way is good. The important aspect is don't lift your shoulders to take a breath.

 

[dintymoore]

What benefit does it have to push your stomach out?

It's not so much that you are pushing your stomach out.

Your lungs are't like a round bag, they are pear shaped, and the top part is much smaller than the bottom part. The top part is very fast but doesn't have much capacity. If you were suddenly attacked, the top part of your lungs can fill up real fast in sort of a gulp of air. That's what the top part is for, and it's all I used for a long time when I sang.

But when you breath in "through your navel" and your stomach goes out, you have way, way more air inside you. Now you can let it out slow and not run out of breath all the time. You always have a reserve, some left.

So it's not so much that pushing your stomach out is a benefit, it's that when you breath like that you have way more air.

I remember a long time ago a girl singer told me "you have a pretty good voice except you're always running out of air". When you run out of air your pitch goes down the toilet!

There's a big muscle under your belly called the diaphragm, and when you breath in and your stomach goes out, your diaphragn is pulling down, and that's what draws air into your lungs. That's what people mean by "sing from your diaphragm", which actually doesn't make any sense because you can't sing from it but I guess the thought is there.

It has been described as the feeling of holding a basketball under water.

A good exercise is to breath in (through your navel) while you count to 7, and then breath out while you count to 7. Breath in through just your nose and breath out through both your mouth and nose. That is also an excellent way of getting "un-nervous" if you get worked up before gigs, or anytime you're stressed. It forces more oxygen to your brain and that has a chemical effect of calming you down. It's free drugs! It's a great thing to do and you can do it anywhere, in the car driving, wherever.

That to me would be voice singing lesson #1.

After that I'd get into Seth Riggs' "motor boat" exercises you do to get your whole mouth and throat completely relaxed. Those are excellent, fun and easy. Sounds corny but they are. Those are on YouTube.

 

[miroslav]

I don't get why i have such a problem with this, and i find it very frustrating that some people are able to just do it

There's always Autotune.....

Have you tried playing the melodies on guitar or piano and singing with them?
Just the single notes....

All this ear training...are you able to sing/repeat notes right after you hear them?

 

[NYMorningstar]

I agree that pushing your belly out will result in more air intake than raising your chest but I don't think that's optimal.

Lowering your diaphragm is what is making the difference and that can be done without pushing out your belly. You can isolate your diaphragm muscle from your abdominal muscles. I'm a big advocate of holding your gut in because it helps with posture, blood and oxygen flow, etc.,

When I contract my diaphragm pushing my stomach in or out doesn't seem to change my air volume.

You working on your abs regularly will give you added power for exhaling.

I don't know if this will help but here's a site that shows how the diaphragm functions. Click on "Click to start" and then "Show side view" then move the slider side to side:
http://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/HowTh...le.aspx?articleID=10152&categoryID=XL-nh1-02a

 

[grimtraveller]

I personally think that if a person is "tone deaf", ie: you can't hear the difference when playing in one key and singing in another, or can't really tell when you're singing wrong notes, then there is no real hope of learning your way into being a good singer.

I am not a great singer by any stretch - but the instant I sing a note that's even a half semitone 'off', I hear it right away, and cringe internally. If recording, I stop and do it over. I don't need to listen to the playback to hear a problem.

I have a friend who can't even remotely sing Happy Birthday - it's utterly terrible, and seemingly random - and he thinks he's perfectly in tune, can't hear a problem. That's being tone deaf, and I don't believe it can be unlearned.

This is all IMHO, I'd be interested to hear what others think.

-Mike

I used to think that tone deafness was something of a myth. Then came that fateful day when I heard my mate Chandra sing......I was standing next to him and I realized that someone could be tone deaf. It was spooky, like being in the twilight zone. I never want to write people off but even in my most optimistic moments I have to conclude that there is no hope for him in the vocal stakes, short of a mighty blast from God or him getting struck by lightning .

It's also worth remembering some of the greatest songs ever recorded were not pitch perfect/ It's only fairly recently that there has been this fascination with pitch perfect records that really rely on comping multiple takes and pitch correction software to achieve and never actully existed in the real world.
Even fantastic singers hit an off note every now and then. I think it can add character so long as it is not every note

I think there is a big difference between the odd off note that is so rare that you can barely hear it and doing away with the idea of hitting pitch not mattering. For me, there's no character at all in not hitting notes. It's a real bugbear of mine. Also, I slightly disagree with Bristol here because until the punk era came with it's "everything ordered and correct stinks" viewpoint from so many of it's leading protagonists, singing in tune, even screaming in tune, was counted as pretty vital because however you look at it, the singer was more often than not the first port of call in a song for the listener to cling to. You heard, liked and remembered the melody and that was the singer's domain. You may have liked all the other aspects of the song more, but when that record wasn't playing and you heard it in your head or hummed it, it was the melody. So the singer had to be in tune all the time, otherwise how could the average punter know how a song went ? There are numerous stories of studio bust ups that occurred when a singer was told they were a little off !
I honestly find that most people I've heard sing can actually sing in tune but because they don't sing to audiences (whether live or on recordings), there's no real reason for them to work on their voices so they are 'lazy' singers. My wife is a gem for that, she'll sing songs and manage to find three keys in them ! But if she concentrated and really listened and stayed in tune, her voice would be a really good one. I find that with loads of people.
Chamelious, it sounds to me like you are doing all you can do and you just don't like your voice. Which is not uncommon at all. Many famous singers have disliked their voices. If you find that others like your voice and they're not just sucking up to you, you should listen to them. And just keep at it.
Interestingly, just coz a person doesn't sing well doesn't mean they can't discern a good or off key voice. The crowds watching all those singing contest programmes like pop idol or American idol or whatever can tell 'off' singers straightaway.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I don't know about that. Listen closely to Frank Sinatra ..... he's considered one of the greats and if you really listen, he sang all around the pitch a LOT.
But his emotional delivery and the rhythmic content of how he phrased things was more important.

 

[grimtraveller]

Funny you should say that. When I was about 12, the guy that used to play Kojak, Telly Savalas, had a huge #1 hit in the UK with a song called "If". When he'd perform the song for 'Top of the pops', or the promo performance they used on that programme, his singing was so bad that to this day I couldn't tell you the melody, such as it was ! I was amazed such singing even got on record, let alone made #1.
But Frank could still sing and despite some of his pitching, he was kind of an exception to the rule (which I'm told you can be, with Mafioso backing....)

 

[Strat1958]

Lt. Bob is right about Frank, never really noticed that. Dean Martin too. They slid into the notes just like you play slide guitar.

It's all about the total package - lyrics, melody and interpretation, or overall feel to the song that makes it magic (or not).

-Mike

 

[dintymoore]

Your time and your pitch are your fingerprint. Some people have very recognizable ones. George Harrison for instance - nobody sounds like him when he plays side. His pitch is a big part of his identity.

Here's my carnalogy:

When you first learn to drive a car, it demands 100% of your attention. When you're a good enough driver that you can do it somewhat "automatically" you can talk to someone while you drive.

You need to be a good enough singer that to some degree you can do two things at one time: sing and also listen to the rest of the band. I'm convinced that most people sing off key, not because they can't hear it, but because they "go off into there own little world" when they sing and don't notice that they aren't in tune with the band. Sort of like a person talking while they are driving a car and having an accident.

The same thing goes for playing off time with a band, it's all about awareness, and specifically being good enough at something so you can put it on automatic and do a second thing.