Singer's Forum Part II

  • Thread starter Thread starter chessparov
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What "legit" singers call a "mix" is a blend of true head tones
(not falsetto) to sing high notes.
The opera singers like Placido Domino call it falsettone.
Under my old maestro's supervision, he had me singing up to
A natural above middle C, VERY high for a lyric baritone,
using this technique.
On my, however, it's work to sing above an F or F sharp.
That's the value of proper technique though, then you make
everything relatively automatic and can concentrate on delivering
the song.

Anyone else who's taken lessons?

Chris
 
What's the proper technique when singing for the nasal passage? I've heard different theories about how keeping the nasal passage closed vs. opend can effect tone and range.
 
There are loads of different techniques that people use to sing. Using the Bel Canto technique (that involves "inhaling" the voice... sounds stupid at first, but it actually makes a lot of sense when it's explained), the nasal passages MUST be open. Since air is directed onto the hard palate from outside of the mouth, meeting up with a stream of air coming up from the lungs, the only place for air to escape is through the nasal passages.

Chris
 
SIGH.....

Sorry guys.

I do not in any way support a singers forum.

Here is why;

1) Singing can not be taught, learned, tweaked, polished or any advancement at all from books, tapes, or web-sites.

2) Singers in training need to have some one correcting there every note in order to insure proper placement and to protect the vox.

3) There is more bad advice & bad methods then there are good ones. This comes from every one who can or can not carry a tune seems to feel that automatically they are qualified to give singing advice. Even in the past few post I see advice that I would say is COMPLETELY WRONG.

4) People who once sang in High School Choir and got some couching from there teacher are not trained singers.

5) People who have been singing all of their life are not trained singers nor are qualified to give singing advice.

6) Most musicians think singing lessons are a waste of time and money.

7) Most musicians do not know what singing lessons are for. (no it is not really to learn how to sing.)

8) Not every bad singer will benefit from lessons

9) Not every good singer is trained.

10) Finally, Trained singers, although I know few, would probably disagree on methods, technique, & style causing even more confusion for the novice.


Sean


http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1691&alid=-1
 
That's just dumb.

Even if I agreed with every point you make fuz, there is no harm at all in having a forum for singers where at least, points of veiw like yours could be represented.
Already I have come away with a useful bit of knowledge from the ongoing singing discussions (make sure I'm not at all dehydrated - best advice I've had in years - and I suppose obvious in hindsight).
I agree I'd be much better off if I could find a great vocal teacher and had the time for it, but I'm a hobbyist musician,
and enjoy the amount of singing I do.
A few tips from others on here can
be very helpful.
If I made the claim I wanted to be the next Opera star, then a forum would be a waste of my time yes...
 
Now this is where the fighting starts !

GordWait;
That's just dumb
Click to expand...

My blood pressure shoots up when some young Newbee is going to tell me that I'm wrong about proper singing.

Furthermore, why would someone who does not posses any knowledge what so every of proper singing nor has ever taken lesson in his or her life, get some weird information and then treats it like gospel ???

there is no harm at all in having a forum for singers where at least, points of veiw like yours could be represented.
Click to expand...

The problem is that there is SO MUCH BAD ADVICE that if some one like you would follow it, your voice could be ruined, FOREVER

I have come away with a useful bit of knowledge from the ongoing singing discussions (make sure I'm not at all dehydrated
Click to expand...


A glass of water MAY help you right be fore you sing, but I have had a glass of water start moving "Flem", making it very difficult to lay down tracks.

Regardless, this is to much thinking, a trained singer, should most of the time, be able to step up to the plate and sing, comfortably, needing perhaps a little warm up.

As for me, I need very little warm up time, in my younger days with less training under my belt,
I would warm up, drink water, drink tea, take a nap, not talk all day, bla, bla, bla...
I would just obsess over my voice, an indication of not being in an advanced state of training.

I agree I'd be much better off if I could find a great vocal teacher
Click to expand...

Now this is an intelligent thought process, the rest of your sentence shows just how little you understand what lessons can do for you.

A few tips from others on here can be very helpful.
Click to expand...

MORE LIKELY DETRIMENTAL!

If I made the claim I wanted to be the next Opera star, then a forum would be a waste of my time yes...
Click to expand...


Lessons have nothing what so ever to do with becoming a great singer attitude.
Lessons have everything to do with preserving your voice.
Lessons can make you a great singer ONLY after you learn how to preserve your voice.
The above takes years of proper couching, not reading some ass-holes fucked up advice on drinking water or making sure you don't sleep with your feet uncovered, on some dumb web-site or on some stupid tapes.

Good luck,

Sean
 
You do your own message a disservice fuz.

<hr>
quote:
My blood pressure shoots up when some young Newbee is going to tell me that I'm wrong about proper singing.
<hr>
Relax, perhaps you need some online advice about your tense attitude!
Kidding.. I'll take it as a compliment that you think of me as some young newbie!
Racking up postings on a web site doesn't automatically make someone more
of an authority on any subject by the way.

You seem to live in a very black and white world, but most people take
what they read with a grain of salt.
The benefit of a singers forum is that you get to sample a variety of opinions and decide for yourself what you think is good advice.

Yep there is a chance some young gullible person will read some screwy theory
and go down the wrong path. Words can be powerful.
<hr>
quote:
Furthermore, why would someone who does not posses any knowledge what so every of proper singing nor has ever taken lesson in his or her life, get some weird information and then treats it like gospel ???
<hr>
See above about the grain of salt thing..

<hr>
quote:
The problem is that there is SO MUCH BAD ADVICE that if some one like you would follow it, your voice could be ruined, FOREVER
<hr>
This is excellent advice, fuz, everyone here should definitely take heed.
I'm serious about this.
Um, hey you're posting useful advice about singing on the web.
Is this one of those logic tricks (every thing I say is true, and I just lied to you..)

<hr>
quote:
A glass of water MAY help you right be fore you sing, but I have had a glass of water start moving "Flem", making it very difficult to lay down tracks.
<hr>
Good point; the post I read about avoiding dehydration stated very clearly that the benefit comes by having lots of water throughout the day before singing. Same advice
by the way for doing any sort of sports activity, like say running the 10k.
I find drinking water in between singing at gigs to be detrimental.
I definitely benefit from making sure I have lots of water during the day tho.
<hr>
quote:
Regardless, this is to much thinking, a trained singer, should most of the time, be able to step up to the plate and sing, comfortably, needing perhaps a little warm up.
<hr>
Ah, except for a short bout of Bel Canto lessons when I was a teenager,
(not enough to help I'm sure) I haven't had training, and I don't have time
what with my job, wife and three school age kids and a house to take care of.
I'm lucky to have time to do any music at all during the week, yet
I'm going to keep on singing and risk my vocal chords. I don't sing Led Zepplin,
so I ought to last longer than Robert Plant eh?
So, I can use what ever tidbits I pick up along the way. If I find drinking
water starts to cause me more strain than before, I'll stop it.
<hr>
quote:
Now this is an intelligent thought process, the rest of your sentence shows just how little you understand what lessons can do for you.
<hr>
I totally agree, but, what about the incompetent singing teachers out there?
Wouldn't someone starting out new be more likely to take a bad singing teachers
advice as gospel and do serious damage?
A use for a singing forum would be tips on how to pick a good vocal teacher from the herd. It sounds like - from your strongly worded opinions - that you may have
some good advice on this front!

<hr>
quote:
Lessons have nothing what so ever to do with becoming a great singer attitude.
Lessons have everything to do with preserving your voice.
Lessons can make you a great singer ONLY after you learn how to preserve your voice.
The above takes years of proper couching, not reading some ass-holes fucked up advice on drinking water or making sure you don't sleep with your feet uncovered, on some dumb web-site or on some stupid tapes.
<hr>
I'll take my chances reading advice on the web - yours included!
What you seem to be proposing is that we should all stop talking (ok, typing)
about the subject now. Thats it. All you people interested in singing move along.
Nothing happening here. You're all too young and gullible to be able to safely
form your own opinions.
<hr>
Good luck,

<hr>
Thanks, you too! Take it easy on the stress level, it's not good for you.
Gord Wait
 
Things have gotten more lively than I expected.

I have had the fortunate experience of having one of the best vocal
teachers in the world. It exposed me to many concepts and ideas that
I'd be years away from implementing.
Yet...

The knowledge is out there for those who seek it out.
One of the best books ever written on vocal technique was "The Science
and Sensations of Vocal Tone", by E. Herbert-Caesari (out of print).
It was reviewed and endorsed by Gigli, Tetrazzini (of chicken fame!),
Dinh Gilly, and Tito Schipa-ALL legendary opera singers.

Another fine book, more easily found, is "Caruso's Method of Voice
Production", by Dr. P. Mario Marafioti. This book was also reviewed and
endorsed by Emma Calve', Galli-Curci, and the two greatest operatic
singers (ever) of their respective vocal type, Tito Ruffo (dramatic baritone),
and Enrico Caruso(lyric/spinto tenor)-hey, he helped the good doctor to
write it!

"Set Your Voice Free" by Roger Love, America's top voice coach for
pop groups is excellently written for the intelligent layperson,
and has an exercise CD to go with it.

If anyone is curious about more books they're welcome to ask for more
selections, however ANY of these WILL improve your technical level if
you're willing to implement their tenents. They've even helped me! :)

Chris
 
Roger Love's book..

Glad to hear Roger Love's book has potential - I asked for it for xmas.. Keep my
fingers crossed that I get that instead of socks!
Cheers,
Gord Wait
 
Geez Smelly, lighten up. This stuff is just a hobby for most of us. I think we could all learn something from a vocal forum.

Ruin my voice forever? I'm scared now. Sheesh.
 
djc
This stuff is just a hobby for most of us
Click to expand...

Really ?

I would disagree with that statement completely, though this is a great question for the cave.

Sean

Ps.

Ruin my voice forever? I'm scared now. Sheesh.
Click to expand...

Ignorance is bliss !
 
One things for sure. A singing forum would be a great place to get in a fight.

The fact that there are so many small hard to explain details to vocal training makes it difficult to do over the internet.
And what my trainer told me to get something threw my thick skull may come off totaly different to someone else.
There in lies the major advantage to live training. You can be corrected only shortly after you try something you were told to do. On the net no one can hear you to stop you and try to explain the method in a different way.
You would more than likely get as in depth as you would want to in two or three paragraphs. If you do much more in this type of forum you could send someone off on a tangent that you never ment to.

I have the feeling that too many cooks would spoil the stew.

But as in T.V. if you don't like the channel, turn it off.

Personally drinking water before singing drys my throat and makes it tickle:D

F.S.

PS it is homerecording.com
 
A lot of us have made good points AGAINST having a singers' forum. It IS true that technique can NOT be conveyed merely in print, in a video, etc. It MUST be a hands-on experience. Having a forum would certainly invite people looking for genuine assistance and receiving a lot of misleading/incorrect/unfounded-ritualistic-based ideas, etc. It would be up to those of us WITH training, I suppose, to enlighten those who require it. This would, of course, start multiple generations of trained vs untrained vocal technique arguements, and even trained this way vs trained that way arguements. Good, maybe.... or maybe not.

However, it would provide a useful place for discussion just for the heck of it, and would provide a forum for some genuinely interesting discussions too.

The only thing I can see is that singing, being such a personal and intangible thing, tends to get a lot of people with an "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" sort of attitude. Many of us, myself included, believe that there is only one proper way to sing. That "proper" way to sing would surely be a source of endless debate. Nobody I know (save for my instructor and those that he has taught), for example, uses what I feel to be the "true" Bel Canto technique (handed down by Lamperti et al) that involves the inhalation of the voice as one of its cornerstones.

It's all fun, though....

Chris
 
On the net, no one can hear you scream!

Howzat for a punchline to the debate over a singers forum! :)

I may just take the time to try and find a local singing teacher
in my neighborhood after the new year.

Not wanting to start that war of trained vs untrained singers, I'll
make a couple of statements first:
I can totally beleive there is a "one proper way" to sing,
which implies longetivity, power, and maximizing your talent
without roasting your vocal chords. Seems like the
Bel Canto technique comes up more often than not as a method
to get there.
Also, I was totally impressed by hearing the obvious difference in
vocal qualities when watching a tv special "Pavarotti and Freinds" where he was joined by Sting, and Bryan Adams on stage.
It was like an Olympic gold medalist compared to the
guy who runs the 10K in an hour. I'm not much of an opera fan,
so had no real basis for comparison till I heard that. Wow.

Now for the contentious part:
I Like the way Sting, Peter Gabriel, Sheryl Crow, Elton John
Don Henley, and numerous other pop musicians sing. I totally agree that some of these people ruin their voices eventually, (some don't).

But, I like their sound. Wouldn't training all singers to be like
Pavarotti make them all sound like opera singers?
That southern gospel sound is totally amazing too.
Can a singer keep his/her "character voice" and learn how
to sing properly too?

One thing I notice is that most famous (therefore financially successful??) singers have is an easily identifiable character.
You know who they are as soon as you hear the first word or two. I've always assumed that this was due in part to their
own vocal technique, most likely an incorrect one.

I'd love to hear from those who've been in and around properly
trained singers, especially if I'm wrong about this.
Summary: would proper vocal technique "ruin" the sound
of your favourite pop star?
(The original singer from ACDC is excempt from this question!)
Cheers,
Gord Wait
 
"I'd love to hear from those who've been in and around properly
trained singers, especially if I'm wrong about this.
Summary: would proper vocal technique "ruin" the sound
of your favourite pop star?
(The original singer from ACDC is excempt from this question!)
Cheers,
Gord Wait"

Ha Ha, either of the singers from AC/DC would have to be exemptrd:D.

As to would it ruin a pop singer? Just because you know proper technique dosen't mean you always have to use it. And there are some very popular singers out there that I would guess have been through a good deal of training. some of them show it, some don't.


Gord wait: you should check at a community college in your area to see it there is a trainer they use. At least you have a fair chance he has some credintials (sp?) that way.
And make sure it's one on one sessions!!
I think I paid about $50.00 a session, once a week.
Gets a little spendy but, the guy was good.


Later

F.S.
 
There are two main parameters for singers we "like";
1) Style characteristic
2) Character of tone quality (including AC/DC)

Pop music in its purest sense is conversational.
There are some operatic singers like Charlotte Church who can
sing "conversationally" AKA pop singing on her X-Mas CD.
Whereas, if you catch any of the Three Tenors singing "Jingle Bells" it won't quite sound too convincing. :)

Genetics determine the quality (or lack thereof) of our vocal tone
and size of the voice.

Unless you're training to sing at somewhere like "The Met"
(which I did for about a year), there are plenty of ways to effectively improve whatever you've got.
One excellent path is to join a local barbershop chapter (for the guys), or a Sweet Adelines chapter (for the gals).
To be surrounded by other singers to listen to, and to be listened
back, is a productive environment to be involved in.

The concern about hurting one's voice is a valid one, however,
there's a certain law of diminishing returns after a point.
The relative "need" for vocal coaching analogous to athletic coaching. Ever see The Lakers play a game without their coach?
If the material you're performing has a high level of "demand",
then you'd better be coached through it if you want to do your best. On the other hand, for example, if I was in a commercial
studio to cut a cover of a familiar song in an easy key, it's unlikely
I'd seek professional assistance because the technical level is so
much lower than a typical Broadway "legit" song.

A cost effective way to get lessons for pop singing is on a "as needed" basis. Put together a repetoire of songs you like in comfortable keys, and when you hit obstacles, take them to a
voice coach to get past them. A good rule of thumb is if you can sing a given song well without worrying about technique it's
"good to go"-otherwise go back to the drawing board!

Chris
 
I've wondered about various pop singers, and whether they are singing correctly at all. Elton John, I believe, used to sing incorrectly when he was young, and eventually, he had to have surgery. Now, I imagine he sings correctly, or does he? His voice is much lower, he doesn't do falsetto anymore, but his voice is still very recognizable. But, I like his voice a lot better when he was younger, even when he sang very high, and his voice was pretty thin sounding, still it had a lot of energy and character.

Paul McCartney says he has never worried at all about singing, doesn't do warmups, just goes for it. And he seems to sing differently all the time, sometimes very full, somtimes lightly, sometimes, really hard and throat ripping. His voice doesn't seem quite as flexible as when he was young, but it's still pretty amazing for 60, and he still will rip it to shreds. Why doesn't he need surgery?

And, Steve Tyler, how on earth does he sing like that after all those years?

Are these 3 singing correctly at all?
 
I too prefer Elton's voice when he was younger.
Unfortunately, Paul smokes and you can hear a loss of the velvety texture
he also had.

Steve Tyler, on the other hand, is blessed with one of the best hard rock
voices. Not that Elton and Paul can't rock out, their voices are inherently
more melodic in nature. Kind of like comparing how well a quarterback can
take a "hit" versus a line backer. :)

Actually, assuming good health, your voice will improve throughout your
whole life, although it will tend to slow down "improving" after 50 or so.
Basses, for example, normally sound their personal best until AFTER
50! Operatic tenor and sopranos will tend to slide downward in range
after 50. This will also show up in pop tenors like Elton and Paul.

In opera for the real heavyweight stuff like Wagner, many times they wait
until they're over 35 to tackle it when their voice gets fuller and stronger.
It's ironic that in pop/rock the reverse is usually true!

Chris
 
Vocal "quality" (ie. tone) and training....

The tonal quality of your voice is what you were born with. You can't train the average Joe to be an olympic athlete - even with years of intense training. You can't train to be an opera singer if you don't have the voice - that is, in terms of ability AND tonal quality. A Fender Strat won't sound like a Les Paul, and Rod Stewart will never sound like Pavarotti. That's part of the answer....

The other part of the answer is that you CAN "work" the tonal quality of your voice to a pretty reasonable extent - "putting on" a voice, if you will. That's sort of the other part of the answer.

Will training your voice ruin anything for you? NO!! A great example of this is a guy, Brian Vollmer, who sings for the Canadian rock band, Helix. They had multi-platinum sales in Canada, and a couple of their albums went gold in the USA and other countries also. He's among the best rock singers out there. Check out

Helix at their website, and you can listen to a variety of audio clips.

Brian Vollmer also teaches the Bel Canto vocal technique (he learned from the same teacher that I'm taking lessons from.... not that I'm anywhere near as good...) and he also sings operatic material (weddings, etc.) on the side. He has a personal website with some audio clips there too, at www.brianvollmer.com .

Comparing the two sites, he is proof that you can totally rock, using an operatic singing technique, and then do the Ave Maria the next night in a tux - and sound like what a person would hope for upon hiring an opera singer for their event!!

His website also describes a little bit about the Bel Canto technique, which is largely misunderstood. One of the cornerstones of the technique involves "inhaling" the voice, which sounds totally bizarre, until you're actually taught how. Many people claim to use/teach Bel Canto and know nothing about the whole inhalation bit.

No, most pop singers do NOT sing correctly. They do whatever works for them. Many, as a result, wind up experiencing both long and short-term problems.

As for Steven Tyler, and Brian Johnson.... who knows, eh? I LOVE their voices, but God only knows how they can even speak, considering the abuse they put their voices through!!

There is no substitute for learning proper vocal technique, and it can in NO way have negative effects on one's abilities as a singer. You HAVE to take lessons, though. It is a very physical thing, so a fair comparison would be like trying to learn how to swim from internet posts, books, and videos..... not gonna happen!

Chris
 
chessparov said:
Another fine book, more easily found, is "Caruso's Method of Voice
Production", by Dr. P. Mario Marafioti. This book was also reviewed and
endorsed by Emma Calve', Galli-Curci, and the two greatest operatic
singers (ever) of their respective vocal type, Tito Ruffo (dramatic baritone),
and Enrico Caruso(lyric/spinto tenor)-hey, he helped the good doctor to
write it!
Click to expand...

Caruso is a highly regarded tenor in opera's history - depending on who you talk to. There is some debate surrounding him, though. One night, on stage, his throat started to hemmorage. Some say it was pleurisy. Others say that it was not.... Apparently, he always sounded like he was reaching for the high notes, like a lyric baritone trying to be a tenor and squeezing out the high C and B. He was heavily noded (which is apparently documented and well-known among the opera community at that time), as a result, and frequently numbed his throat with ether before performing. Because the nodes were no longer stopping him, he continued to push it out, and wound up causing hemmoraging in his throat. He died as a result, I believe. Hmm......

Chris
 
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