simple question...does Christian music scare off listeners here?

[sae]

Couldn't agree more with Ruebarb

Ruebard said:

I'd rather play with people who say they are playing for money or chicks then play with people who say they're doing it for God when they're doing it for money or chicks.


I agree. Music is music and I personally am very turned off by bands that say something and do something else...like hypocritical bands. I think it is important to know what your focus as a band. As soon as a "Christian Band" (and I use the term loosly) loses their intentions to witness or to spread the Word of God then they will be out looking for their own fame. Now I don't think that fame is wrong...as some of the Christians in the New Testament times were quite famous as well as wealthy. I do think however that fame and money are very powerful and have the ability to tear someone down that was strong in their Christian faith (or any other belief and not necessarily religious) just to maintain their status. I think is possibly why there are so many good Christian Indy bands. The Christian indy scene is HUGE but it seems that as soon as these bands hit the Christian mainstream market both their sound and their message is compromised. I live in a small town so no big Christian bands ever come to town but there is a lot of local talent not only here but all thru-out Canada and the North USA. I think that if any of these bands would sign onto certain labels (which I will not mention do to my bias against them) that their message and their style of music would DEFINETLY be affected. I think most of the bands would be "encouraged" to tone down the aggresiveness in which they music is portraited in a recording or played on stage. Just one more question I have....I listen to a lot of so called "Christian music" and if there is one thing that stands out to me it is the fact that there are not very many songs that deal with heartache. Almost all of the songs talk about how Jesus loves you (which is true and there is a place to play/sing those songs) but how many songs do you know of that talk about stuggles in their lives in where the author feels like God has abandoned him or how many songs deal with poverty, racism or any other major problem our world is facing. If these songs do exist they might come to the conclusion that God and Jesus can solve all these problems (and I am not saying that They can't/won't) But it is all the good things that we hear in Christian music (all the fluff and sugar coated lyrics) that make many Christians and non-Christians turn away from Christian music. I definetly think it is a downfall of Christian music. Just my two Cents.

 

[Hard2Hear]

sae-
listen to my song "Run Away". Maybe more along the lines you're talking about.

I think the point about indies is very valid. I think it's valid across all music, though. When anyone signs a contract, they are giving up part of their artistic vision to do what a company tells them to do. It has upsides and downsides to it, but it seems to always involve comprimise.

But then again, if you want to do music full-time you are going to be hard pressed to do it all on your own. It can be done, but it is very rare. I do know people who have contracts with labels and it has not changed them a bit and their vision has stayed...in fact, these people seem to be very successful by keeping focus on why they are making music. My guess is it is like any other minority and there are all kinds of people and diffferent hearts and intentions, and it is bad to group everyone into one broad statements.

H2H

 

[VOXVENDOR]

Benny Hinn, Are you out there???

Lets get a "pro" to give us some feedback on the subject....

 

[Fishmed]

Before I get into the music aspect, let’s look at Christians today. There are many people who claim to be “Christians”. Now if they are or aren’t, that is totally between them and God. Their actions toward other people may lead us to wonder, but who of us are perfect?

Now the music: I work with many local Christian artists, some have great talent and others are less than stellar. I think Christian Rock music is the hardest thing to promote because the churches see the music style as secular and the secular scene usually sees it as “Bible Bashing”. This mentality on the side of churches is very hypocritical because Southern Gospel is not much more than country music. I think what makes a band Christian is not what style they play, it is how they conduct themselves on and off the stage. Several years ago, a band from California came out here (Alabama) for a concert. They are Christians, but they explained that they don’t play Christian music. Playing music is just their job. The same as if they where cooks, salesperson, etc. I do believe that who they are influences what they write and play, but that is no different than any other band. I do find it disheartening that people can write songs about Jesus and although musically it sucks, it is accepted because it isn’t heavy. Where as a good heavy song about God is rejected based on it’s “music style” and not it’s good music, let alone it’s message. I think the music industry is to blame for bad Christian Music. Sure, they are terrible non-talented musicians, but the industry does not need to promote their music to the point where it becomes the mainstream of Christian music. From the standpoint of a music career, bands like Creed do the right thing by not getting associated with the “Christian Music Industry”. If the only place you can play your music is at a church, are you playing to the lost? Most likely not, as the people there are already Christians; therefore, your music is just Christian Entertainment. As far as playing your music for God or to God, well… you can do that ANYWHERE.

 

[Hard2Hear]

Fishmed- good post. You're right.

H2H

 

[Dolemite]

I think we are talking about the same thing here.... no matter how "blantantly christian" the artist is, or has been recognised as a icon for Christian music, if the song doesn't glorify God or draw listeners near to God, it is not a Christian song... it's just a song.

...and usually a much better song!

yes, I am a native Malaysian but Christianity is not the main religion here.... Islam and buddhism are very big here. I am not a born Christian as well, I was "born again" 2 years ago after being a "idol worshipper" all my life.

Oh no, I should have seen that coming! Did the good Lord take a likin' to ya? Next you're gonna tell me that you've been "saved."

Dolemite, from your sharing I conclude that you think Christianity is a religion and you have a sense of respect for other culture and religion.

I think I do, and it is very unfortunate that many Christians do not and feel the need to impose their views on the world.

In fact, Christianity is not just a religion, is it to have a relationship with God. To have a religion is just to have certain rules to follow in your believe but Christianity is so much more than that.

It is what it is to you...all religions are relationships to different definitions of God or gods.

About respecting other religion.... I do respect other culture, but I can't compromise on God's word. Jesus Himself said, "I am the truth, the way and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." we have to share the Gospel and bring people to the truth. God never compromise on His word, let's us not do that for Him.

So you're saying you respect other cultures but not other religions? You say you have to share the truth. Truth is a very subjective term. Some people do not want to hear your version of "the truth" and I would bet that you feel the same way about their "truth." Furthermore, I believe that this mutually exclusive "we win and you lose" attitude has hurt every religion that has employed it.

God gives us a great commision to make discilples all over the world, and real Christian music is one of the most effective way of doing that.

Amen!

Honestly I don't know how effective it is. If this is your most effective way of getting people to convert, I'd start working on something new. Whenever I hear that stuff it makes me wretch, and I don't know of anyone that has converted or rediscovered the church because of that awful music.

Dolomite...I think that statement sums it up. Why not use a wall of Marshalls (and/or a POD!)?

Because there are much better things to do with them!

Why not enjoy spreading the word?
Why not enjoy worshipping and praising with the genre of music you enjoy most? You are right, however. The person is a "false" Christian to make money for PERSONAL gain, and or to "sneak" their viewpoints to others via "popular music." I have no intentions to sneak anything. ...and as stated, I agree, singing LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus....is a bit boring. I enjoy worshipping and like to spice it up a bit more. No need to be a monk now! Thanks for hanging in there with the responses, however.
mixmkr

OK, I can appreciate that you're not consciously trying to hide your intent or message, but trying to "spice things up" is a slippery slope towards "sounds like the 'NSync's been reading their 5 matching bibles." I don't think you'll ever sound like 'NSync of the Backdoor Boys but I would like to hear the attempt, hehe!

If the only place you can play your music is at a church, are you playing to the lost? Most likely not, as the people there are already Christians; therefore, your music is just Christian Entertainment.

Interesting post, Fishmed, but this is exactly where Christian music goes wrong, when it becomes entertainment. I'm sure all of us have seen the televangelist guys that hold their mic in one hand and "heal" people with the other using a pretty standard trick to make them fall down (along with the people's preconceived notion that they should fall down because they've seen everybody else do it). Those guys are entertainers, pure and simple. The church is just a guise and a front to their show, and time and again these guys have been caught with their pants down and their hands in the coffer...but I digress. When either worship or worship music has become a show, become entertainment, and people are paid to do it, it is NO LONGER worship. I don't think anybody will challenge me on that.

 

[mixmkr]

When either worship or worship music has become a show, become entertainment, and people are paid to do it, it is NO LONGER worship. I don't think anybody will challenge me on that.

You are right about the show and entertainment part...100%!! Getting paid...why not? Should all preachers then do it for free? I personally would like to be totally financially secure thru my Christian music, but if I am not, then I'm not. Wouldn't being more musically sucessful on the charts help me to spread a word of God? Sure it would.....just like the $200,000 studio HOPEFULLY God will help me get. I want to do the best I can. If God decides I am the person to have that studio, then he'll give it to me....in one fashion or another. Right now however, he has given me a fantastic start!

http://www.mp3.com/theupperroom

 

[Leeking]

Dolemite,
I shared what I shared cos I thought in earlier post you mention that you're a Christian and I thought that you would understand. However, from what you've shared, IMHO, you do not know God or experience Him before. I do not want to discuss this further and respect your views. I do encourage you to continue to seek Him and find out what being a Christian truly means.

mixmkr,
I've check out your site and songs. I like what you're doing and praise God for it. Your sharing in this thread has been encouraging to me. I pray that the Lord will always be with you and bless you in your walk with Him.

"O, I feel like dancing,
it's foolishness I know,
but when the world has seen the light,
they would dance with joy, like we're dancing now..... "
-- "I could sing of Your love forever"

 

[Dolemite]

Dolemite,
I shared what I shared cos I thought in earlier post you mention that you're a Christian and I thought that you would understand. However, from what you've shared, IMHO, you do not know God or experience Him before. I do not want to discuss this further and respect your views. I do encourage you to continue to seek Him and find out what being a Christian truly means.

Ouch! Leeking has spoken!

I guess all these years I've been fooling myself, eh?

I'm just gonna run off and buy up all of the Avalon, Michael W. Smith, SONICFLOOD, POD, Jars of Clay, Radial Angel, and Newsboys CDs I can get my dirty pagan hands on so I can really "know God" and "find out what being a Christian truly means."

 

[Fishmed]

Well I can see that this thread is no longer about music.

Bottom line, if a person does not believe in God then that person should NOT be expected to agree with everything in the Bible; therefore, it is a waste of time to try and convince other people, AGAINST their will, to understand the things of the Bible. God brings people to salvation, NOT man. Many times, God is misrepresented by man, and it is a shame when people start to follow the man and not God. I will have to agree with what has been said before, being a Christian is about having a relationship with God. Religion is man-made, and it does nothing but clutter the true meaning of being a Christian. The way some churches and “Christians” act today, I can’t blame other people from being turned-off to Christ, and this is very sad.

Here is Fishmed’s viewpoint on having a relationship with God and man:
God could have easily made man to have love and worshiped Him, but He didn’t. Instead, he gave us the freedom (or will) to make a choice. Imagine if you met a woman you really liked… if you forced her to love you, how true would that love be? But, if you gave her the freedom to decide for herself, then imagine how special that love would be, knowing that she choose you because she truly wants to, not because you forced that love upon her. I believe God is the same way. I am sure that He desires the whole world to love Him, but I am sure He only wants that love if it is true and pure. So if God does not force His love on people, why should I feel that I am greater than He is and take on as a personal mission? I feel that God does lead man to salvation, but it is up to the man to make his own choice. I do think it is important to let people know about God and His salvation; otherwise, how is someone going to be able to make that choice. I may not agree with other people’s views and beliefs, but I do respect their right to make their own decisions.

 

[Ray J]

My theory lives

My theory lives on. I always say, no matter what message board you're on, strike up a conversation about God, Christians or religion, and watch how many responses you get.

Just to add a few things to my 1st response to this thread. I will say that in a lot of the Christian music I hear, the lyrics sound ' forced' for lack of a better term. When this happens in a song, it usually turns me off, regardless of if it's Christian music or not. I struggle with lyrics, and shitcan 90% of my lyrics because they sound 'forced" or unnatural.

I think this is why so many people are saying that the musical content or whatever suffers in Christian music. There's an agenda it you consider yourself a Christian artist, in other words you limit yourself and this is what make it so hard to get respect musically. THis makes it even harder to be one of the 'good' Christian artists that some of you have mentioned. Anytime you limit yourself within a certain framework, whatever it may be, it makes the job a little harder. This is why sometimes it's harder to write a catchy simple song than it is to write complexed work, because you're working within a framework. My hat is off to the artists that consider themselves Christian artists and still manage to be good musically. I would imagine this is a tough thing to do.

Anyway, I can't fault someone for shouting out what they believe and although I'm not a Christian artist, I do consider myself a CHristian in my broad definition of the term.


My 2 cents

Ray J

 

[FoofChunk]

problem with music......

http://www.dcd.net/NBP/persuasn.html

Notice how large a role music has in this (even when it doesn't seem obvious; musical concepts such as tempo and rhythm arise in distinctly non-musical areas). Why do you think churches play organ music (droning with consistent meter)?

This isn't a problem that's exclusive to christianity, though. I was forced to attend a relative's bar mitzvah fairly recently, and was shocked at the service. It was filled with chanting and singing, where of course the congregation is expected to join in. Children who would start to get restless during the service would suddenly spring to life and start singing along with the songs. This made me feel incredibly ill and sorry for these young people who have already been brainwashed before they're even old enough to realize what that means.


I love music in part because of the tremendous emotive power it can have, but this power also is ripe for the exploiting for malicious purposes, whether they be commercial, religious, or otherwise.


As for my personal view to the main question of the thread, I'd look at it this way:

The lyrics of a song are every bit as much a part of the song as a guitar solo, or instrumental bridge or anything. If someone posted a song with 'broken' instrumentation, I wouldn't be all that inclined to keep listening; by that same token, if someone posts a song with 'broken' lyrics (such as, but not limited to, christian music), I'm gonna be equally turned off.


Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I have a deep dislike for religious evangalizing in general, and this is compounded by the fact that music (one of my main loves in life) is used as a key tool in that.


So, in closing, I'd like to say: Fuck you Bach for being such a whore to the church and writing blatantly hipnotic trash that you knew the church would eat up.


-FoofChunk

 

[VOXVENDOR]

Don't get me started on the Jewish culture now!

They illegally give babies wine and circumsize them in front of a group of people, in an unsterile environment home.....

You know what alcohol does to babies?..... even just a little bit!

And what about a life threatening infection?

Very Twisted....

I find it enraging that people still to this day, put religion in front of the health of their children.....

I know this has zip to do with recording, but this is a reiligious based thread, and when the jewish culture was mentioned... of course, I had to add my 3 cents

 

[MercyfullMusic]

Interesting isn't it?

Interesting isn't it that when you are Christian and you are singing about something you believe in you are trying to influence someone else, but if you're not Christian then you are just expressing yourself.

What a load of nonsense. But this illustrates the division between light and darkness.

I don't like a thing Eminem or Limp Bizkit says, but I don't say they are trying to influence me. The truth is they are putting out what they feel inside them. We Christians do the same thing. It's perceived by the world as trying to convert the world, but that's not the case. God made use us in that way, but we can't plan it, or engineer it. If we are doing that we aren't sensitive to the Spirit.

I have a Christian Band, and I also play in my Church's Praise Band. They are 2 totally different animals. My Church is a time of Worship, reverence for God and an offering of my praise to Him. My own band is totally different, it's about total musical freedom. Trying to do music that's different from anything else in Christian music, but with lyrics along the lines of what I believe in. What you guys have said before is totally true, if you don't sound like what is BIG in the "Christian" music industry you will have a harder time finding gigs, etc. This proves my point, these Christian artists that are trying to break the mold are doing it from their heart. Many are good musicians and could easily be playing more gigs and making more money. They do it because they love it.

Christian music is like all music. People will have opinions of you, Christian or non-Christian. They will judge your music, your beliefs, your lifestyle, and your intentions. If God is calling you to do something, do it. Do you expect the world to love you? Did the world love Jesus Christ? No. Will some hate your music, of course.

Remember as the word says, "Do not throw pearls to swine." I understand things from my walk with God I would not have understood when I was drunk in a bar years ago. There is a time and a place for all different depths of conversation and songs to God. If my band plays a song in front of a Church, I may give a much different depth of explanation of the song than in a club. Not because I want to be popular, but it's just not going to be understood by someone with no knowledge of God.

The most important thing is this: Don't compromise your beliefs to try to seem "cool" to the world for them to relate to you. And remember people are affected by how they see you live your life, not what bumper sticker they see on your car or what you say in a song. Kid Rock sings about God in a song but I don't see people getting saved at his concerts. Most ministering is done off the stage.

 

[Dolemite]

I was waiting for somebody to resurrect this thread...

I understand things from my walk with God I would not have understood when I was drunk in a bar years ago.

Why is it that all these "born-again" fools are former (and sometimes current) junkies/alkies/wife-beaters/Jerry Springer guests/redneck trailer park NASCAR fans/etc.?

Whenever you hear somebody say they've been "saved" you can pretty safely bet that they have a shrine to either Dale Earnhardt or Steve Austin in at least one corner of the trailer.

 

[sae]

When I think I have had like 4 drinks in my life...never hit a girl and dislike NASCAR. Am I still born again? Yup!

Oh Ya and if you realized the complexities in which Bach made his music you would have a different appreciation for it.

 

[MercyfullMusic]

My response

Quote:
Why is it that all these "born-again" fools are former (and sometimes current) junkies/alkies/wife-beaters/Jerry Springer guests/redneck trailer park NASCAR fans/etc.?

Whenever you hear somebody say they've been "saved" you can pretty safely bet that they have a shrine to either Dale Earnhardt or Steve Austin in at least one corner of the trailer.



I'm not junkie.
I've never been an alcoholic.
I've never beaten my wife.
Never been on TV let alone Jerry Springer.
I'm not a redneck.
I don't live in a trailer park.
I don't watch auto racing.
And by the pattern you are drawing I probably don't fit whatever etc. was leading to either.

Have I ever been drunk in a bar in my life. Yeah. I partied every now and then in college and as a young adult, you took it kinda far out there. Seems like you've seen one too many David Duke clips on TV. I was making a point with my comment. No one in a club is looking for the meaning of life.
I'm sorry you feel since I have been drunk a few times in my life that I should be disqualified as being redeemable by Christ. I'm sure you are probably too perfect to need Him. Ignorance is bliss I guess. Truth is Christ came to redeem the lost. It's okay if that offends you. In fact it offended alot of the RELIGOUS people when he came. They thought he associated with the wrong crowd who weren't as good as them and wasn't exalting himself as a King should have come. Although I am probably not the stereotype of a "fool" Christian you are painting, I am certainly a sinner in God's eyes as we all are. And I thank Him that he saves me as well as others worse or more perfect than me. That goes for you too if one day you accept Him.

I could go into talking about my education, career, money, etc. But my goal here is not to rub it in that you are wrong about me. Back to what I originally said. The world as a whole will only love your message of God in music if it's an all loving God that goes along with whatever people feel is fine for them. So this being said, to take want to state God's truth and be popular with the masses at the same time is not possible. So you take your pick. Do you water it down like Creed so that Spirituality is your God? You decide what seems right to you? Or do you stand up for what you believe in? Despite what others think. I don't write music to "trick" an audience into knowing God. People are smarter than that. I write what I feel in my heart from a Christian perspective. It will not be popular, I won't get rich and famous, etc. But just as Jesus says that his sheep hear his call, some people will understand your music and relate to it. And most importantly you are playing to an audience of one in Heaven. I'm just saying success in music concerning faith is not about popularity at all.


If my faith makes me fool to you so be it.

 

[Dolemite]

sae,

Loosen up man! Go out and get smashed a couple times...just don't take it too far (or start watching NASCAR) or else you'll end up fitting my admittedly overgeneralized view of "born-again" Christians!

Although I am probably not the stereotype of a "fool" Christian you are painting, I am certainly a sinner in God's eyes as we all are. And I thank Him that he saves me as well as others worse or more perfect than me. That goes for you too if one day you accept Him.

Dear MercyfoolMusic,

It may pain you to realize that I may loathe modern "Christian music" and have a very dim view of "born-again" Christians but still be a happy, healthy person who happens to also be a Christian. If by "one day accepting him" means being "saved," (as you call it) then no thank you. There are a broad range of backgrounds, ethnicities, and even religious beliefs at the church I attend but there seems to be little such room for any abberation from the established ideals of the fundamentalist "born-again" church. I had no trouble discerning your brand of Christianity from your above posts. Not that you made any attempt to hide it, but I have noticed that when the usual NASCAR + mullet + trailer = current or soon-to-be "born again" Christian formula doesn't compute, just a few statements about religion will easily tell you if someone has been "born again." These contrived religions simply make no accommodation for personal beliefs and they use exclusionary concepts to reinforce the need to "fit the mold." If you feel that my personal stereotype of "born-again" Christians (which should have been read more humorously than you seemed to take it) is prejudiced or too harsh then maybe you should reconsider the intolerant, narrow-minded, and exclusionist views of your own religion.

And most importantly you are playing to an audience of one in Heaven. I'm just saying success in music concerning faith is not about popularity at all.

This is seriously fucked up...are you trying to score brownie points with God? Everyone knows he's a big AC/DC fan anyway...

BTW, what are you worrying about, you've been "saved" and I haven't! You really needn't bother, being so far ahead of the rest of us already...


P.S. - Are you the one or sending money to that whore with the blue hair that's tieing up a perfectly good cable channel that could be much better used for soft-core porn?

 

[sae]

Dolemite.
I think you are getting personal and nasty...or flirting with it. As long as you are having fun with it it doesn't bother me. I am comfortable with what you have to say.

"If you feel that my personal stereotype of "born-again" Christians (which should have been read more humorously than you seemed to take it) is prejudiced or too harsh then maybe you should reconsider the If you feel that my personal stereotype of "born-again" Christians (which should have been read more humorously than you seemed to take it) is prejudiced or too harsh then maybe you should reconsider the intolerant, narrow-minded, and exclusionist views of your own religion.
views of your own religion. "

How can your stereotype/prejudice of a religion make my view of someone intolerant, narrow-minded or exlusionist? On the contrary I would say that YOUR view of christians/"born-again" (anabaptist - if you want to be 100% correct) is narrow-minded. If you think that every anabaptist is trailer trash then your view of christians is the narrow-minded one and needs to be re-evaluated.

Whatever. I just think that you wanted to say something just for the sake of saying it...so I hope you had fun with it. By they way what's with the swearing...no that it's a lot (and I appreciate that) and I haven't been exposed to more/less of it but do you need them to express yourself? I would appreciate it if you would not add them to your comments. Thanx

By the way...are you religious? I noticed you said you attended church...I am curious what kind of church you attend. Also saying that God is an AC/DC fan is borderline sacriligious. But again: whatever you have to say, say it...He might be offended but He has taken it for years. As far as I know he can hold his own. I would request that as long as you don't personally offend me or anyone else in the forum go ahead and express yourself. I want to know what is it about Christians that turns you off? Other than we like Nascar, spam and our trailers (in no particular order)?
Do you have any legitimate questions/complaints/comments about Christianity you would like to address?

P.S. Just a side note. How do you add someone elses quotes to replies?

 

[Kelly Holdridge]

Religion is an individual thing, with individual consequences. Tough to dig Christian music with others (for me, at least).

Sin is a communal thing, and men are social creatures. That's why pop music is crap and generally involves sexual innuendo, a big hook, and 3 ton test line pulling straight DOWN. (oh, THAT's clever)

There's an answer in there somewhere.

I'll listen to anything, although the abstract generally appeals to me (and very little music, even this alternative shit, is abstract). I agree with how Christian music tends to have that particular sound. I personally don't care for it (the sound).