Signal Chain Help Please?

M

minds device

New member
Hello everyone. I am new to the forum and have a few questions. I will start with a list of my current gear.

Computer Hardware/Software
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3.2GHz AMD 64X2 Dual Core
2.5GB RAM
Windows XP Professional
Sonar 7

Outboard Recording Gear
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Presonus Firepod (A/D converter and preamps)
DBX 166XL (stereo compressor/noisegate)
ART Phantom I (phantom power unit)

Mics
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1 x Rode NT-2A
2 x Audix i5

Guitar Equipment
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Boss GT-3 (multi-effect floor pedal)
Marshall G100 RCD Head (i bypass the preamp and use the power only)
2 4x12 Carvin Cabinets (75watt Celestions)


My first question is. Would I see dramatic improvements in my ability to alter the sound of a signal with the use of an external equalizer such as the DBX231 in my signal chain BEFORE it reaches my DAW? I am thinking this is the classic approach because most mixers have parametric EQ built in that the engineer will usually set before going to tape. I have a "mixerless" studio and I am thinking I can get a more scooped mid "rammstien" type guitar sound if I EQ before hitting the DAW. Am I correct in my assumption? (I am already using my DAW EQ so I don't want redundancy)

My second question is. Could I use the 1st channels on the DBX166XL and DBX231 for the recording signal chain and then use the 2nd channels of the same units for my guitar signal chain?

It would go like this:

Guitar chain (channels 1) Guitar -> DBX 166XL -> GT-3 -> DBX 231 -> Poweramp -> Cabinet

Rec Chain (channels 2) Mic-> Preamp -> DBX 166XL -> DBX 231 -> A/D Converters -> DAW


Sorry if these are noobish questions. Thanks for any help ;)
 
I typically don't like to put anything in the signal chain that might degrade the signal.
I am not a fan of eq on tracking, though people do it all the time.
My problem is if you do it at tracking and don't get it right, you can't "undo" it.
I just use my eq and compressors in the DAW.
I will only on rare occasions use a compressor at tracking for the very same reason. It is way too easy to kill your sound with a compressor so I just track at a lower volume with full dynamics and compress at the mixing stage.

You can use the compressor and eq the way you describe as long as the channels are fully independent or if not,you are not using them at the same time.
 
tmix said:
I typically don't like to put anything in the signal chain that might degrade the signal.
I am not a fan of eq on tracking, though people do it all the time.
My problem is if you do it at tracking and don't get it right, you can't "undo" it.
I just use my eq and compressors in the DAW.
I will only on rare occasions use a compressor at tracking for the very same reason. It is way too easy to kill your sound with a compressor so I just track at a lower volume with full dynamics and compress at the mixing stage.

You can use the compressor and eq the way you describe as long as the channels are fully independent or if not,you are not using them at the same time.
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+1

Would I see dramatic improvements in my ability to alter the sound of a signal with the use of an external equalizer such as the DBX231 in my signal chain BEFORE it reaches my DAW?
Click to expand...
Much the same as doing it after with your software -but with the disadvantage of not getting to tweak it in the final context of the mix. Better sometimes to just get the cleanest, most direct version of your best guess of the right tone up front.
To the extent the comp (or eq) gets you closer' to 'final' and you know, then less to do at mix.
 
So was getting an external compressor the DBX166XL a mistake then? I got it for recording bass and vocals. I found when I had my signal to where I liked it the bass player would go and peak the signal. Same with vocals. It is hard to fix a vocal track that goes from a whisper to a yell in a DAW compressor. I found that if I turned the gain down on my mic preamp (as you suggested) the signal to noise ratio isnt as good and you end up with a great sounding yell track but the second it goes to whispering the DAW compressor raises the level of the WEAK whisper to that of a louder volume. Problem is it also raised floor. And the signal ends up NOT as clean. With an external compressor the preamp is up high during yells and whispers capturing the PURE AUDIO while the external compressor deals with the level differences in (hopefully) a transparent manner. Through my research I have found an external compressor to be VERY important. I was just wondering if the same applies to an external EQ. Please tell me I didnt make a mistake buying the DBX166XL :(
 
Hmm. It's a decent versatile comp and bound to be usefull at least in the long run. Even if you're just getting the hang of things (presuming here :)) there's nothing wrong with jumping in with both feet' on tracking with it and learning as you go. The thing with softwear is 'undo'.
A good rule of thumb -When in doubt go easy, low ratio, don't squash or kill all of your peaks, just a few db off the top. Then instead of going to more comp at mix get to know your clip envelope automation in Sonar to even out the tracks. Soemtimes that's 90% there.

I found that if I turned the gain down on my mic preamp (as you suggested) the signal to noise ratio isnt as good and you end up with a great sounding yell track but the second it goes to whispering the DAW compressor raises the level of the WEAK whisper to that of a louder volume. Problem is it also raised floor
Click to expand...
The thing is that the nose floor is mostly on the analog end and will come up, with the signal, whether turned up before or after. If you set the pre right, and with 24bit, there is enough dynamic range to cover it. You can have the quiet parts down many db on the converter end and still have very clean gain in the prog. The comp' going in can generally only help get you part of the way there. Mic tecnique, envelopes, Don't make compressors do all the work.
 
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Whats weird is for over 2 years I tried doing a Marilyn Manson/Trent Reznor whisper then yell and I could never get any software compressor to do what I wanted with the signal after recorded. After adding the hardware compressor it was a exactly what I was missing. So what you basically are telling me is you can get equally as good results with a DAW compressor as you can with an external right? That would mean I wasted $200.

The difference I see in my wave form is with a DAW compressor it is very small then almost peaking. With the hardware compressor it is always large wave form for whisper than larger for yelling. Also the dynamics are still there.

I understand the "undo" thing but assuming I KNOW how to use a compressor... I mean... well... I guess what I am getting at is WOULD A PROFESSIONAL STUDIO USE A HARDWARE COMPRESSOR FIRST OR RELY SOLELY ON THE DAW? Same question for the EQ
 
minds device said:
.. WOULD A PROFESSIONAL STUDIO USE A HARDWARE COMPRESSOR FIRST OR RELY SOLELY ON THE DAW? Same question for the EQ
Click to expand...
In light of all that then yes. (and I would. Definitely a good option to get it closer up front if you can.) But IMO it's not that the software isn't able, more that don't necessarily want to bite it all off in any one compressor stage. And the noise ratio is what it is -mostly on the analog (and 'room' vs voice' s/n?) not low A/D level. That's back to good gain staging, mic' tech etc.

..just to add, not sure what would be better with the graphic' rather than the plugs later.
 
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I will be using plug-in EQ for sure during mixing. But when putting the source "to tape" so to speak, I assume getting the best "source" sound possible before passing it through the a/d converters and then on to the PC would be the ideal situation. Correct? I could see not using an equalizer to try and correct something before recording like lets say a violin or cello. But if the equalization contributes to the sound itself like slightly scouping the mids out on electric guitar BEFORE the audio is recorded... that kind of makes sense to me. Am I way off base here or what?
 
I get 'less to do at mix', and hardware that brings something unique or special to the party, and if it works, hell that's reason enough. :DI'll bow out on 'because it's pre-a/d'. :)
 
Please don't think i am arguing. I am simply tring to get my head around this. Ok back in the day stuff would be EQ before going to tape and then bounced to 2 track stereo and EQ again. Today using software we can EQ AFTER the source is recorded. Does it really make a difference when it is EQ? Now that I think about it. A sound is a sound is a sound. So whether or not it is a sound being EQ before or after the recording I guess it makes no difference? Compression does not seem to follow the same rules though. I think the best thing to do is TRY it. Does anybody else out there have an opinion on this?
 
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