Sight-reading

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Cyrokk

Cyrokk

Farce of Nature
What is typically the minimum sight-reading requirement for session guitarists? Obviously reading rhythm and dynamics are important, but are they required to read at any position on the fretboard, or is the first position the only real necessity since that's really the only position where one can play in all twelve keys?
 
To audition for the Australian Airforce band you need to sight read TWO instruments pop & classical with NO prep.
I'd imagine session playing would be rather more difficult.
Cheers
rayC
 
As a general guideline, it would probably involve being able to play anything put in front of you. You would be expected to play it quickly, accurately, and without comment.

Last year I spoke with the former drummer for the Tonight show, who had been very successful as a session player in his earlier years. He commented that three things made the difference:

1. Being able to play the 3 popular styles (jazz, rock, and country)
2. Being able to sight read
3. Ability to get along with all involved

He stressed 3 was very important.

Ed
 
... or is the first position the only real necessity since that's really the only position where one can play in all twelve keys?
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What? You can play in all twelve keys in any position.
 
AlChuck said:
What? You can play in all twelve keys in any position.
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Yeah, I was quite confused by this remark as well. What in the world do you mean by that Cyrokk?
 
Speaking as one who has played sessions and a lot of other situations in the last 45 years ..... In the old days you might have been able to get away without reading. Now you better be able to read fly shit across the room.
If you plan to have a career as a working guitar player you better know how to read music. It can take a lot of time to learn but it is worth it on a lot of differnt levels and you will progress much faster as a musician.

Be a musician first then a guitar player. Musicians read music .....
 
famous beagle said:
Yeah, I was quite confused by this remark as well. What in the world do you mean by that Cyrokk?
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I guess I should rephrase my post.

I learned how to sight-read on guitar about twenty years ago from a book that's sitting somewhere in my house but I can't seem to locate. IIRC, the author stated that one of the challenges of reading music on guitar was the fact that a single note can be played in multiple places on the fretboard, something which many writers of sheet music for guitar basically ignored (playing brass for seven years, I can attest that reading music is much easier on many other instruments for this very reason). While yes, you can play in any key virtually anywhere on the fretboard, the problem is that more often than not, the sheet music won't tell you exactly what position the majority of notes will be in for utilizing your technique. I believe the book suggested that the first position would be the best position to learn because you can utilize essentially the same four-finger span of technique for all twelve musical keys plus the open notes - something which is not so easy to do in other positions. Of course, there still are limitations, particularly once you reach beyond Ab above the staff.

My original post should have stated that the first position was "the only position where one can play in all twelve keys" most efficiently.

My ultimate question is: how do session guitarists ultimately determine what position to sight read in? Does he look at the key signature and say "oh, it's in G, so I should be in third position"? Or can he get by just by learning to read in, say, the first position?
 
My original post should have stated that the first position was "the only position where one can play in all twelve keys" most efficiently.
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I wouldn't say it was most efficient. It might be with the least amount of reaching, since you don't have to reach for the open strings so you can get all the notes in the first four frets. But it's actually easier to grasp and hence probably more efficient to use movable fingerings that will reproduce themselves (albeit in a different order) as you go up the neck. Even so, practicaly speaking, it's rather hard do play in certain keys in certain postions even if you can, so most people go for the ones that involve the least amount of stretching for notes. I suspect most people get very comfortable with, say, four fingerings, and move these around the neck for the different keys rather than stay in a single position for everything.

My ultimate question is: how do session guitarists ultimately determine what position to sight read in? Does he look at the key signature and say "oh, it's in G, so I should be in third position"? Or can he get by just by learning to read in, say, the first position?
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I'm not a session guitarist, but I think it's mostly a matter of experience and what you're usually called on to read. It's not like you're going to be asked to sight-read Robert Fripp passages or stuff like that. Most things are simple, and stay in one key for a long time, you've seen the same basic vocabulary a million times before, so there's typically a more-or-less obvious comfortable way to play them. You would usually guess right the first time, and with a first pass it's clear if there are any unusual stretches that you might be better off by making it some other way, and adapt accordingly.
 
faderbug said:
so when you can't read music you're not a musician? get outta here!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Ex-act-a-tally. Your are just a guitar player.

BTW - as far as posotion goes, I like to practice reading using Clarinette music because it covers almost the entire neck. Practice three octave scales.
 
beezelbubba said:
That's fucking stupid! :D
Musicians MAKE music,old man!
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Not being able to read music limits you. It is not fucking stupid. Their are a lot of great players that cant read music. The inability to read music limits every one of them.
 
Cyrokk said:
I learned how to sight-read on guitar about twenty years ago from a book that's sitting somewhere in my house but I can't seem to locate. IIRC, the author stated that one of the challenges of reading music on guitar was the fact that a single note can be played in multiple places on the fretboard, something which many writers of sheet music for guitar basically ignored (playing brass for seven years, I can attest that reading music is much easier on many other instruments for this very reason).
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This, Cy, is when I used to read when I was a brass player for 5 years, and then never read for 25 years playing guitar. For a time during about 2 years, jazz and classical was basically brutal for me BECAUSE of exactly what you said- voicings and positions made it much arder than plunking keys. A chord is a chord- until you get it into guitar. C in first position, no 5th- wait it's 8th.

As for the Marsabubba debate, both are merits. Just because you can't read doesn't make you a guitarist, but I never saw a guy who didn't read play in 'professional' gigs... or maybe to say a 'session' player. The band or orchestra tells you what to play- and you play it on paper. Mars and TheEvilEyes both are two different kinds of musicians.
 
While there are lot of different views on what a musician is, it is probably generally accepted as a person who plays an instrument and makes music. That person becomes a more complete musician is they can also read music.

I believe it is also true that most session players read music. I'm sure there are examples of highly successful session players who did not read, but expect they are in the minority for most instruments.

Learning to read music is a good thing. It expands the range a given music person can handle. All it takes is one occurrence of showing up to play with a group, having music put in front of you that you don't understand, and hearing the words "Next...".

There are some very successful players who can't read a note of music. Some point to them as the example that reading is not important. However even though it may not have limited them much, it's probably just because they were lucky. Some people survive car wrecks without seat belts where the vehicle rolls over several times. However most of us know that is the small percentage case.

If you want to be successful as a musician, learn to read. There are lots of different levels of reading music. Just learning the basics is a real step forward.

Ed
 
Here's an interesting quote from Santana:

"Everybody had sheets of paper to read-like an accordion, pages and pages," he said. "Louis Armstrong just had his handkerchief and his trumpet. And somebody said, `Yeah, Louis, if you don't read music, how do you know where you are? How do you know when to play and what to play?' He said, `Look man, I close my eyes, and I see the notes hanging from a tree. The ones that are most ripe, those are the ones that I choose to play. The juicy ones.' "People who read have an advantage over people who don't, but it's better to read life than to read the paper," he concludes. "That's my analogy. I'm not saying ignorance is bliss. Actually, if you don't read music, that doesn't make you ignorant. Birds don't read. Birds can go out there and they'll still have a song in the morning.

"Imagination is the best thing. Close your eyes or do whatever you can to hear the inner world music. Read that. A lot of times, you can read the paper [music], and it will sound stiff. I admire people like Wayne [Shorter] and Miles; they can read, but they read beyond the paper. That's what I'm talking about."
 
famous beagle said:
Here's an interesting quote from Santana:

"Everybody had sheets of paper to read-like an accordion, pages and pages," he said. "Louis Armstrong just had his handkerchief and his trumpet. And somebody said, `Yeah, Louis, if you don't read music, how do you know where you are? How do you know when to play and what to play?' He said, `Look man, I close my eyes, and I see the notes hanging from a tree. The ones that are most ripe, those are the ones that I choose to play. The juicy ones.' "People who read have an advantage over people who don't, but it's better to read life than to read the paper," he concludes. "That's my analogy. I'm not saying ignorance is bliss. Actually, if you don't read music, that doesn't make you ignorant. Birds don't read. Birds can go out there and they'll still have a song in the morning.

"Imagination is the best thing. Close your eyes or do whatever you can to hear the inner world music. Read that. A lot of times, you can read the paper [music], and it will sound stiff. I admire people like Wayne [Shorter] and Miles; they can read, but they read beyond the paper. That's what I'm talking about."
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Great post.

I think the whole thing about reading notation is often misunderstood by guitarists who don't read, or who don't read fluently. When a person reads really well they hear the sounds represented on the page in their mind's ear and then play what they're hearing on the instrument. It's not a chart of mechanical playing instructions. And it doesn't convey everything in music, you still have to rely on a sense of style and taste. It's really just a way of conveying things that would otherwise be too complex to remember. It's like a graph of the sound. Notation's all about sound, not fingerings.

Tim
 
Years ago...during my college days, we had a visit from one of Doc's backup guys. He came out and talked just about that. He also brought some sheet music and dumped it on us one by one. He explained that this was how it was done during his tryout. At first is seemed simple enough...just play the music as written but he asked us to transpose to alternate keys while playing the tune for the first time.

The full-time studio cats have their stuff tight!
 
I will say this, however, the definition of the word "musician" states nothing about reading music, as well it shouldn't. Music is an aural language, and if you're able to communicate your message without ever having to read, then more power to you.

Obviously, it will keep you from certain musical careers (such as teaching, most studio work, etc.). But there have been just way too many extraordinarily accomplished musicians in practically all genres (except perhaps classical) that couldn't read music, and yet we study their work as the pinnacle of musical expression.

a few examples:

Django, Wes Montgomery, Errol Garner (in the jazz world)
B.B. King, Stevie Ray, Robert Johnson (in the blues world)
Paul McCartney, John Lennon, Eddie Van Halen (in the pop/rock world)
 
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