Should talent be present at mixdown?

[Tucci]

For our last cd my bandmates and I sat in the control room with the professional engineer for almost the entire mixdown. I guess I was slightly paranoid that if I wasn't there, something might get in that i wouldn't want, or maybe something would be left out that I did want. The engineer was very cool and listened to any suggestions from my amateur self....I learned stuff too.

But I'm wondering if it would have been better to just let the engineer do his thing without hanging around. I sometimes think that since we were mixing so closely after the time we did tracking, that we probably weren't hearing things too objectively. I was happy with a couple of the things that were included only because we happened to be present at mixdown, but I also wonder if occasionally the quality of the mix suffered from our exhausted ears. Then again, if four band members and the engineer all agree that a track is done, I suppose that's as good a measure as any.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Tucci
www.locuststreettaxi.com
Horns, Harmony, & Humor

 

[gorbyrun]

I vote, YES.
I prefer having the talent present at mixdown. Tastes and Musical styles vary a lot... along with acceptance levels. If some or all of the band is present I can ask production level questions... that saves time and money--or let's me go "all out" without worrying about the bill.
It can make things more difficult if the band is ill-behaved, but I doubt this applies to you.
It the band is happy, I'm happy... However, it's probably personal preference with other engineers....

 

[pipelineaudio]

I get burned on studio time left and right, taking too long because of having " talent " present while mixing. If the group has ONE clear leader, who can quickly overrule everyone else, NO PROBLEM. that is ideal, then I LOVE to have the band in.

Having " talent " present also lets them in on the zillion hours of editing it takes to make up for lack of " talent" which makes it easier to get paid.

If you want to be present, be DAMN sure there is one person in charge.

 

[Light]

I do NOT allow the band in the control room until I have finished my first pass. I ask them to tell me what they want ahead of time, and to give me some CD examples of the sounds they are after, but I can not work with 4 different musicians, each trying to make their own instrument sound its best, in the room. I will spend a few hours working on the mix, and when I fell it is what they have asked for, I invite them in. They make comments, and then they leave me to work. Once I have implemented their comments, they come back, listen, and are usually very happy. If not, they go, and I give it another try. It rarely goes past their second listen. If I am working with another producer, I do my best to get him (or her) out of the room as well.

I am much more efficient if I am working by myself. The process takes about half the time, and one tenth the frustration, of trying to mix by comity.

It is also good for the musicians to come at it with fresh ears. You do not want to have your impression of the mix being colored by the process of mixing. At various stages, things will sound BAD while I am mixing. I do not want someone asking me to fix the guitar solo while I am working on the vocal, for instance. Your perceptions of the final mix will be colored by the sounds you hear along the way. Not a good thing.

The other issue is that I take a 5-10 minute break at least every hour, which keeps my ears objective, and also to protect my hearing. I have had bands complain about this when they were around during the mix. I am unwilling to do less than my best, or to damage my ears, so I will not skip these breaks. It is just easier if the band is not around. I am quite sure that taking these 5-10 minute breaks eliminates 15 minutes of chasing down things I can no longer hear when my ears are tired.

At any rate, I think it is a really bad idea to have a bad in the room during the mix. If it is a solo artist who has absolute control, it is better, but still not good.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[muttley]

NO!: not untill I've done a first pass then ask their opinion/sugestions, I go back and do it again ect. Towards the end, I maay let them in for the final tweeks. I try to get to know the band and their music at a few shows/concerts, this helps in putting together theit final sound.



da MUTT

 

[Hardcore]

The guitar player wants to hear more guitar. Vocalist wants their vocals more up front. The bassist wants to hear the bass more clearly. And the drummer thinks that they're mixed to low (hypothetical). Put them all in the same room and eventually all the faders are cranked up as far as they can go. I don't do any mixing except at home, but I can forsee a big problem with it. Generally you will get a chance to give feedback after the initial mix. I think that's when you should express your artistic visions. But that's just me.

 

[volltreffer]

Nope... Hardcore said why

aXel

 

[Tucci]

interesting

thanks for the replies everyone. Although there were comments on both sides it seems that more people think it's better to not have the talent around....at least at first. I will keep this in mind.
At one point during the making of our cd one of the engineers said that the secret to knowing your mix is finished is when everyone thinks they're the loudest. I thought that was funny, but true.


Tucci
www.locuststreettaxi.com
Horns, Harmony, & Humor

 

[mikeh]

I had to sign in on this - since it's a big pet peeve of mine.

I will only allow the leader of the band, or whoever the band "trusts" to produce (no more than two members). Often it would be a guitar player - and that's good because in so many types of music the guitar sound is very important to the song.

I only bring them in after I have put together a close representation of where I think the mix should be (meaning basic fader levels - with little or no effects dialed in).

I learned not to allow a whole band in because as was previously indicated each guy wants to be louder in the mix, etc. etc.

It drives me insane when the assigned "producer" walks out with a mix that he was happy with only to call two days later to say "the guys in the band don't like this and that. I'll try to cooperate up to x-times but after awhile I just have to say "you're the producer - make a decision and live with it".

I have eaten way too many hours (unbilled hours) trying to satisfy everyone in the band, their girlfriends, relatives, neighbors and everyone else who heard a given mix and had an opinion.

 

[flatrockrecordin]

Not only no, but HELL NO!! When I'm doing edits and mixing, I get in a certain zone where I'm extremely focused. I don't want any disturbance until I feel that I need a break. When I hear talking, I start trying to find the track I might have missed an edit on - not good.
If they want something to listen to, I'll give them a VERY rough mix with no editing, eq, or fx and tell them i'll call when I'm closer to a final mix (usually the next day). Now that they've gotten familiar with the rough mix, when they hear the next effort, they're usually extremly impressed.
After the first couple of songs with a client, you get to know what they want, and they know what to expect.

Read mixerman's diary at
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/mm/. He calls the CR "the womb". A safe place isolated from the world. I agree.

 

[chessrock]

I tell the band they probably don't want to be there for the less glamorous tasks.

I mean, who wants to be around while I'm trying to find the proper threshold and release times on the noise gates for their drum tracks . . . while I'm figuring out the attack/release times for the compression . . . etc. etc. ?

These are pure laborous tasks that need to be done, but can quickly bore a band to tears.

Take care of the necessary, less-sexy tasks first . . . then have them come in for the simple / fun shit later.

 

[nwsoundman]

Huh?

If the band has a producer he/she will be present with one or two leading band memnbers. I think isolating the band is one of the worst things you can do. If the band has no producer a band member will be appointed producer roles.

Who the hell am I to act as their producer. Thats not my role in the big picture.

 

[sonusman]

Well, I often wish that they weren't present, up until the point when after I have brought up what I thought was a great mix for the track that they have, and they want to change EVERYTHING.

My experience has been this:

Good bands that have a great sound on tape usually don't need to be there and often trust what I will do. When I have "finished" the mix, they might come with a few suggestions, and often, they are good ones.

Bad bands will never be satisfied with the mix no matter if they are there of not!!! I can tell you all one thing, the best lessons learned were often the most expensive ones learned. Now, I am not into making bands spend more money than they need to on any part of the process, but if they insist on being there, and they want to "mix by committee", well, it is their money. They are going to learn by this. I have actually had a few times where is actually worked out okay.

Let them do what they want. "Suggest" something once and if they don't go for it, don't sweat it. Seldom is it going to come back down on you if things don't work out right, and even if it does, you probably wouldn't have retained, nor WANTED to retain that client anyway.

Like nwsoundman says, who am I to act as their producer unless they are paying me to do so?

Ed

 

[jake-owa]

Hey Tucci, you should include some mp3 on your band's site if you want to sell CDs.

 

[Tucci]

Hi jake - There should be four of them up there. Did you click on,
"Listen to the Cow Song, and other LST favorites?

Let me know if you still can't find them, maybe there's a problem I'm not aware of.

Tucci
www.locuststreettaxi.com
Horns, Harmony, & Humor

 

[Downside Studio]

Just the other day I was recording a 30 headed female choir in the studio. I carefully explained before the beginning of the session that if we were really going to record 19 (!!!!!!!!!) songs that day (music allready tracked) there were some basis rules to follow:

1. Whenever you have me in your sight...SHUT UP!
2. Whenever I say something listen to it and try to understand
3. Do not leave the trackingroom
4. NEVER enter the controlroom
5. Please be silent at the end of the song when the tape is still rolling

So we started ..........

When I closed the door from the controlroom, and put up the faders of the choirs mics the whole room became filled with this noise:

POKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOK

(that's 30 housewives talking to each other).......so I started waving at them through the glass which resulted in 28 of them completely ignoring me, and the other 2 friendly waving back.
Anyway after 10 minutes I got them silent and was ready to record the first song..all went well and they even were deadly silent after the take...until I gave the sign the tape stopped rolling.....

pok

pokpokpok

POKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOK


AAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


So I tried to play back the tracked song myself to hear how the recording was, and one of those ladies seems to understand what I am doing in the control room...so she opens the door and asks if she can listen along....At that moment offcourse the whole group takes notice and they invade the controlroom with all 30 to hear the recording. I think by myself well they're not going away before they have hearded something so I might as well play the tape........

first note hits the speakers....the whole crowd in the CR goes...


whhoooo...I CAN HEAR MYSELF.....HEY THAT'S ME....JULIA WHY ARE YOU SINGING SO LOUD......HEY WHY CAN'T I HEAR MYSELF....POKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOKPOK






just one of the glamerous days of a recording engineer.

I will attach a photo tonight of the session (left the camera in the studio)

 

[Chibi Nappa]

That's a great tracking story!

As for my own feelings on the matter, I would rather no one was there until I was done and then listen to their feedback, but it never works out that way...

 

[Track Rat]

I do NOT allow the band in the control room until I have finished my first pass. I ask them to tell me what they want ahead of time, and to give me some CD examples of the sounds they are after, but I can not work with 4 different musicians, each trying to make their own instrument sound its best, in the room. I will spend a few hours working on the mix, and when I fell it is what they have asked for, I invite them in. They make comments, and then they leave me to work. Once I have implemented their comments, they come back, listen, and are usually very happy. If not, they go, and I give it another try. It rarely goes past their second listen. If I am working with another producer, I do my best to get him (or her) out of the room as well.

I am much more efficient if I am working by myself. The process takes about half the time, and one tenth the frustration, of trying to mix by comity.

It is also good for the musicians to come at it with fresh ears. You do not want to have your impression of the mix being colored by the process of mixing. At various stages, things will sound BAD while I am mixing. I do not want someone asking me to fix the guitar solo while I am working on the vocal, for instance. Your perceptions of the final mix will be colored by the sounds you hear along the way. Not a good thing.

The other issue is that I take a 5-10 minute break at least every hour, which keeps my ears objective, and also to protect my hearing. I have had bands complain about this when they were around during the mix. I am unwilling to do less than my best, or to damage my ears, so I will not skip these breaks. It is just easier if the band is not around. I am quite sure that taking these 5-10 minute breaks eliminates 15 minutes of chasing down things I can no longer hear when my ears are tired.

At any rate, I think it is a really bad idea to have a bad in the room during the mix. If it is a solo artist who has absolute control, it is better, but still not good.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

This pretty much describes how I work.

 

[Tucci]

Good story, I can see it now and I'm hurting for you.

Tucci
www.locuststreettaxi.com
Horns, Harmony, & Humor

 

[Downside Studio]

The pictures I promissed earlier. Only half the group is shown though!