Should I record at 48khz and convert to 44.1 for CD

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Paul Ertel

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I am using Cakewalk 9.03 and have a 24 bit digital mixer, Motu 2408 MK2. I am recoring at 24 bits. I have my sample rate set at 44.1 because I go directly from the board to cakewalk and final mix onto a stereo track. I have a CD program called Wavelab 2.0 and it talks about being able to covert the sample rate. I have kept my sample rate at 44.1 because it would be eventually going to CD. Would I get better quality sound if I recorded at 48khz and then converted the final wave file to 44.1 with the Wavelab Software. Please help!! Thanks,
Paul
 
The simple answer is yes....

And don't let any yahoo try to tell you otherwise.

Keep your recordings at the highest possibly bit depth and sampling rate possible until just before burning a CD, then use the highest quality sample rate converter and dithering deal that you can get to bring it down to 16/44.1

Good luck.

Ed
 
I'm a yahoo telling you otherwise :D. Converting sample rates that are not exact multiples is a nasty thing to do to the audio... especially when the sample rates are fairly close to one another.
 
Ahhhhhhh...

I say pglewis that if DSP is going to be applied, and you have a decent working sample rate converter, the the extra samples equal much better sounding DSP.

I have had nothing but problems with DSP working with 44.1 files.

A think a post sample rate dithering will take care of most problems with the conversion.

Ed
 
I'm another Yahoo guy. "Yahoooo"

I feel that if your working on a cd, best to stay in 44.1 unless you own a pro sample converter.
A lower quality sample converter may cause additional low-level frequency components to be in the signal that were never there in the original. There can be an audible effect on overall audio quality and stereo imaging.

In theroy no doubt that you are right Ed but i'm not sure most equipment really differ to a point that it's worth the 48kHz.
I'm sure you can find a better sounding converter at 48 but is it due to that only?!? or perhaps other factors play a part as well?!?
 
With all due respect to my fellow BBS users and peers....

I have not be able to detect a difference between a file that was recorded in at 48KHz, resampled in Wavelab to 44.1, and a file originally recorded at 44.1.

I feel that the extra 10% or samples you get totally negates very subtle aritfacts that MAY be obvious from the sample rate conversion. And when you throw in the extra horsepower for DSP, it totally makes sense to do so.

Now, lets say that I was not going to do ANY DSP at all, I would just record in at 44.1. But, this also takes away any potential for DVD authoring (actually it doesn't, but it would still only be at 44.1) and since I don't hear that sample rate conversion messing things up any more then originally recording at 44.1, it is worth it to have the archieve at 48, even if no DSP is applied.

I am of course open to reading some factual documentation that tells my ears that they are wrong....:) Or for that matter, I would like either of your impressions of what actually changed in the audio when you applied even a decent sample rate converter like in Wavelab that wouldn't have changed had you just recorded in at 44.1. I doubt either of you two could really tell me it sounded any different at all! ;)

Ed
 
I havn't done this many times but I have heard degraded audio due to SRC.
This was a bit of time ago and perhaps today it's not such a big eal
I try to keep away from SRC (I should look into this more) but on a big project were I was an onlooker a conversion was done (I don't remember how but I'll see if i can get the info) and after hearing such a degration, I saw the engineer convert the signal back to analog and resample it through high quality converters with better results.

I'm not familiar with Wavlab. Maybe it can do the job, but there are some that
won't.
We are talking about a very difficult process throwing away info in order to convert it (not an easy task to decide what to throw away). This makes me nervious maybe wrongly so....
 
Yahoo again. Don't do it. Use 44.1.
Sure, with good sampleconversions you MAY NOT get a sound degradation as compared with using 44.1 from the start. But you sure as heck won't get any sound improvement either.

To quote sonusman:
I have not be able to detect a difference between a file that was recorded in at 48KHz, resampled in Wavelab to 44.1, and a file originally recorded at 44.1.

No, so then, whats the point? If the extra 10% of soundquality gets lost in the conversion from 48 to 44.1. (which they inevitably will) why do 48 from the start?

The extra quality you get from 48 instead of 44.1 will be ost when youconvert it to 44.1, because there simply is no place in the 44.1 to hold that quality. AND you run the risc of actually getting WORSE quality, unless the sample rate conversion is high quality. So in all: go with 44.1. No debate.
 
I don't engage in this lightly....but....

regebro, this is not per se a flame against you, but, I have read too many posts where you makes these unfounded, not thought all the way through claims about higher resolution audio. It would seem that you are definately not of the same thinking of the likes of Bob Katz, Bernie Grundman, or Bob Ludwig, possibly the three biggest mastering engineers in the world. You can think different then they, but, you are going to have a hard sell buddy! ;) I don't just talk out my ass about this stuff. I research, listen, and experiment. If you would like to compare some audio, you know where to find mine. I haven't heard yet any of yours.....:(

The reason I always recommend recording and mixing to the highest sampling rate (well, at least up to 96KHz right now....) and the highest bit resolution is because of the increase digital data available for processing. THE PROCESSING SOUNDS BETTER BECAUSE THERE IS MORE INFORMATION FOR IT TO DO IT'S JOB!!! Duh eh? That 10% more samples PER SECOND means that much more detailed DSP can be applied to the audio. Whether it is going to be sampled back down to something is regardless of the fact. That just means that the extra bit of high frequency response is lost, and that a hair of resolution is lost. Splashing in the high end IS going to happen of course, but no worse then the splashing that is going to happen by recording at 44.1 anyway.

Think about it for a second. You record at 48KHz, apply DSP, then resample back to 44.1. Or, you record at 44.1, apply DSP THAT IS LESS POWERFULL AND WITH LESS INFORMATION AVAILABLE. Hmmmmmmmmm..... I am willing to bet that the software algorithms for resampling are much better then the sample clock crystals in the sound cards many of you are using! I am willing to bet that the software algorithms are better then most of the A/D/A converters many of you are using. It would only make sense to record at the highest resolution possible so that the dsp can work better! Sort of giving yourself an extra edge! Duh eh? Not only does that make sense, but is a supported practice by a overwhelming majority of professionals in the audio mastering profession. Most every mixing engineer I have talked to will claim the same thing!

I am mostly fed up with the bogus information people feed on this topic, when much better minds then any of us have already did the tests, and did the math, and did the blind comparisons.

KEEP YOUR AUDIO AT THE HIGHEST SAMPLING RATE AND BIT DEPTH AS YOU CAN FOR AS LONG AS YOU CAN!!! In the end, the audio will have more appearent depth and a far more detailed sound then doing otherwise.

Once again, I link to http://www.digido.com . Bob Katz is a world renowned mastering engineer with a long and storied background in the highest end audio recordings in the world. If it is good enough for him, it is more then good enough for me. If HIS logic don't make sense to YOU, then YOU are not thinking logically. Your less then well thought through ideas does not mean his are flawed, and certainly, many of the top mixing engineers in the world who have an eye towards keeping the most natural sound on their mixes trust those mixes to Bob Katz, and supply him with the type of digital resolution he recommends. If ol' Bob felt, after many dealings in extensive listening tests, double blind even, that 16 bit 44.1KHz sampling rate audio was adequate, he would not have written all those articles suggesting otherwise. Professionals don't argue his points, and I suppose none of us should either. Or course, you are welcomed to by all means.

Sample rate conversion and dithering are not bad things! What negligable artifacts they may produce in the sound is more then made up in the increased DSP power you have with higher resolution digital audio. There is "No debate" with that with anybody that has a name in audio.

Paul Ertel. I have expounded upon this subject many times on this BBS. Do a search and you will find many posts where I have listed details about this. Nobody has yet successfully disputed this, and in fact, most of the professional engineers that post on this site, and other BBS's that I sometimes post on have agreed with this. http://www.digido.com is a must read on this subject. Read over there until it starts making sense. It doesn't take a whole lot of common sense to understand it. Why many still dispute it, I don't know.....

Good luck.

Sorry to name names, or to come across harsh to some people on here who I would normally support just about anything they say. But this issue just doesn't make sense the way it is presented by many on here. I will toot the horn of Bob Katz any day of the week when it comes to digital audio and the best way to deal with it. His information only supported what I was hearing before I understood what the problems with lower resolution audio was. His suggestions on how to combat some of the downsides of digital audio have served me quite well so far, and many others. If it don't server you well, I would tend to suspect something in your listening environment, or possibly, and I hate to say it, your hearing.

There! My rant is over....:)

Ed
 
i had made some recordings at a friends house at 48khz. then we dithered down to 44khz to burn to a CD and it sounded awful. then we recorded it at 44khz, w/o any conversions. it actually sounded better! it all really depends on the equipment you have.

ive got an aardvark direct pro 24/96. i would rather record at 24 bit / 96khz and dither down...the experience i had at my friends house didnt discourage me enough. i'm probably going to run some tests to see if I can hear an audible difference. both sides of the table raise interesting points.
-Tom
 
I have been looking into this abit since thepost started and have come to the simple conclusion that it all comes down to the quality of your SRC.
I have read every thing I can get my hands on and asked several people on their thoughts on the matter and some of them have heard bad conversion algorytoms. I just read that Roger N. has clamied that the best conversion on Pro Tools (called "Tweakhead") that I have been using for a few years - sucks.
Digidesign claims other wise and has done test to prove their point.

Also it is possible that I have been influenced by what I have heard a while ago, while today with better equipment it has been solved.
I havn't heard most of the software out there as I use Pro Tools only. But I have heard as well as other people some problems with this aspect.
Again I want to make it clear that I am NOT saying that there is no software out there that can to the job and you can be sure that NO damage whats so ever is being done to your audio.

To quote Roger:

48-44.1 conversion.
There are some bad sample rate converters, just try the "tweakhead" conversion in Pro Tools. It is the worst thing I have ever heard!
The bad rap about sample rate conversion stasrted 12 years ago when the first Studer $50,000 sample rate converter and then in 1990 with the Sony $12,000 sample rate converter. They weren't that good, and added noise and some distortion to the signal.

As for the DSP issue-I have yet to check it out. I do thank you Ed for the info. I would like to check this point out. can you send me to the exact spot were Bob Katz talks about it. I could not find it at his site.

It seems that there are different opinions as when to convert if at all.
I have heard quite a few people say that on a final mix (unlike multitracking) don't convert.

I can think of a better aproch then "No Debate" or a "this is it kiss my ass".

I also think that Bob Katz has coverters most home recorders don't own. If I'm not mistaken I read there that he says that if you worked in 48 then let him do the conversion on his top notch equipment.



[Edited by Shailat on 11-30-2000 at 00:47]
 
Bravo!!! Bravo!!!

I couldn't agree more with EVERYTHING Ed has said in this thread.

And since Ed said it so well, that's all I have to say about that.

P.S. The same reason Ed, myself, and oh so many others around the world wouldn't question what Bob Katz has to say, is the same reason I myself wouldn't Stephen Paul. :)
 
Shailat....

There IS a difference in the audio when it is SRC'ed to 44.1 from 48. My point is that I don't think it sounds any worse after having done so then a original 44.1 file would through the same converters.

In some cases, the 44.1 file that was SRC'ed using the High Quality setting in Wavelab's SRC in fact had a tighter sound then the original 48KHz file did. Call me crazy, but it usually does.

I think were the problem starts with people who get to work with the top of the line gear is that they get used to the extra fidelity of 48KHz, and when it samples down, it pisses them off! :) Really. It pisses me off, but I live with the little bit aliasing and splashing for the sake of having better DSP available with the 48KHz files.

I think algorithms for a somewhat simple task of SRC have probably improved much in the last few years. Even my Marantz CDR recorder stand alone unit does a very nice SRC from the DAT player. Very hard to hear the difference.

Once you start playing the audio on home components, I just don't think the "bad" artifacts of a SRC are noticable. But, the better DSP is noticable for sure when it was applied to a 48KHz file.

I am done with this topic. Not really being a snob here, but I have played with this stuff enough to know what my ears have told me.

By the way, I have read all sorts of sort of funky stuff Roger N has written, and I would hardly consider him a expert in the field of DSP. I know that he is held in high regard in the audio community, but, I think that ends with digital audio. I read something he wrote about the Panasonic digital consoles that suggested that they sounded every bit as good as a $200k Soundcraft digital console! Please!!! I am barfing here......:)

Digital is a whole other world that the old analog guys should just stay out of. The techniques are just too different for them to learn the new tricks so to speak.

I am not sold at all on ProTool system Shailat. Really. I have had a few CD's mastered on one, and I did not care for what it did for the sound at all. I know they are a revered DAW, but I just have yet to hear something come of a ProTools system that had any semblence of warmth, and didn't have "that" digital sound. I don't know, call me crazy yet again, I just don't care for the ProTools sound. I am not sure WHAT it does to the sound, but it seems to do something. I feel that I have had much more natural results with my PC using Wavelab and the Waves plugin's.

So, there it is. I have knocked Rogen N AND ProTools. You all have to think I am half crazy now....;)

I think I will just go get my old Fostex X-26 4 track cassette recorder from my buddy that I sold it to many years ago and record with it again, mixing to a no name stereo cassette player! LOL.....

Ed
 
Digital Domain has LOADS of good information. But I have now read through quite a bit of it, and I can't find where it says that you should use 48Khz always, even if you at the end resample down to 44.1. Could you please show me to that page?

When it comes to 96Khz, we are talking something completely different here. I do not doubt for a second that recording in 24/96 and resampling that down to 16/44.1 has the possibility of sounding better, if used properly. The question now it 16/48 vs 16/44.1, which is another question altogether.
 
I Did

Read ALL of it, but most of the "meat" about what you just asked to be pointed to is in II. The Source-Quality Rule. Read VERY carfefully. It IS in there! It just doesn't use your exact words that you want it to use:
http://www.digido.com/morebits.html#anchor2052018

But if you want to hear it in your words, e-mail Bob Katz.
 
Well, he almost only talks about bit depth, and sometimes mention that 96 is better than 44.1. The main argument in the text you quote is to NEVER downsample from the original digital format you have, not until the bitter end. :) But this is a question about what to frequency to use when fist digitizing. It's not the same thing.

Anyway, I'm not particularily interested in what his view is on the question, but in the arguments why 48 is better even if you downsample to 44.1, and no such arguments are given in the texts in question. Sorry.
 
Re: Shailat....

sonusman said:

I am done with this topic. Not really being a snob here, but I have played with this stuff enough to know what my ears have told me.


So be it...I'll let this thread die as well.


By the way, I have read all sorts of sort of funky stuff Roger N has written, and I would hardly consider him a expert in the field of DSP. I know that he is held in high regard in the audio community, but, I think that ends with digital audio. I read something he wrote about the Panasonic digital consoles that suggested that they sounded every bit as good as a $200k Soundcraft digital console! Please!!! I am barfing here......:)

Just for the record he also claims that after recording Steely Dan's newest album, the whole crew A-B'ed the same tracks at 96 and then at 48 and could not hear a difference

I am not sold at all on ProTool system Shailat. Really. I have had a few CD's mastered on one, and I did not care for what it did for the sound at all. I know they are a revered DAW, but I just have yet to hear something come of a ProTools system that had any semblence of warmth, and didn't have "that" digital sound. I don't know, call me crazy yet again, I just don't care for the ProTools sound. I am not sure WHAT it does to the sound, but it seems to do something. I feel that I have had much more natural results with my PC using Wavelab and the Waves plugin's.

Actually I'm not a fanatic for Pro Tools but I like to work on it.
When I brought it, there wasn't much to choose from with the same caliber.
I especialy like the fact that I can take work home and move from place to place
and in most studios I can load with out a problem.

So, there it is. I have knocked Rogen N AND ProTools. You all have to think I am half crazy now....;)

Forget the Pro Tools.....but Roger ?!?!?! I'm going to kick your ass.:)


I think I will just go get my old Fostex X-26 4 track cassette recorder from my buddy that I sold it to many years ago and record with it again, mixing to a no name stereo cassette player! LOL.....

What are you talking about.... eveybody does that these days... it's called
Lo Fi. :D


Re- Yes I HAVE read Bob Katz's articles and yes I have as much respect for him as you do...and yes... to my deep sorrow I'm no Bob Katz myself...
I still prefer to base things with my own set of ears.
As well as the fact that Bob K. will not fly over here to mix-master my work for me nor solve my equipment problems.

[Edited by Shailat on 11-30-2000 at 07:28]
 
"When clients bring in 16-bit source DATs, we work with high-resolution techniques, some of them proprietary, to minimize the losses in depth, space, dynamics, and transient clarity of the final 16-bit medium. The result: better-sounding CDs.

Recently, another advance in the audio art was introduced, a digital equalizer which employs double-sampling technology. This digital equalizer accepts up to a 24-bit word at 44.1 kHz (or 48K), upsamples it to to 88.2 (96), performs longword EQ calculations, and before output, resamples back to 44.1/24-bits. I was very skeptical, thinking that these heavy calculations would deteriorate sound, but this equalizer won me over. Its sound is open in the midrange, because of demonstrably low distortion products. The improvement is measurable and quite audible, more...well... analog, than any other digital equalizer I've ever heard. This confirms the hypothesis of Dr. James A. (Andy) Moorer of Sonic Solutions, "[in general], keeping the sound at a high sampling rate, from recording to the final stage will...produce a better product, since the effect of the quantization will be less at each stage". In other words, errors are spread over a much wider bandwidth, therefore we notice less distortion in the 20-20K band. Sources of such distortion include cumulative coefficient inaccuracies in filter (eq), and level calculations.

88.2 kHz Reissues Will Sound Better Than The CD Originals

The above evidence implies that record companies are sitting on a new goldmine. Even old, 16-bit/44.1 session tapes can exhibit more life and purity of tone if properly reprocessed and reissued on a 20-bit (24-bit) 88.2 kHz DVD."

It works in reverse as well.

Shailat:
My writing wasn't directed at you or anyone specific. But even if it was, it wouldn't have been you.

By the way, I'm the first to admit of being biased towards or very doubtful of and questionable towards something because it was said by a certain person or people. It's like that for everyone; even those who don't want to admit it and are very, very intune with that marketing scheme. That's why it's a marketing scheme.

Although, I too do listen to my ears AND others' ears as well. If I didn't, I would not be such an advocate of these rather unpopluar or untypical and sometimes never even heard of (by most or a lot of people), products from companies such as DaviSound, HOPPROD, 797 Audio, EGO SYS, London Power, and at one point around here, Oktavas from The Sound Room only.

I too will let this thread die though.
 
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