Should I be hitting the tape harder?

[Seeker of Rock]

Last thread on the GP9 and my MSR was getting a little lengthy, but in short if I am getting pretty noticeable hiss after recal. for GP9 tape, should I been sending my signals into the MSR hotter and then backing them off when returned into the board before going out to tape? The last post of the drums I put up I was sending the signal to tape at about 0 db per channel average, but the L/R master VU meters were far from hitting zero. When the signal came back from the newly calibrated MSR, it was hot in the board so I would pull the faders back. Should I be getting on it more before sending to tape or no?

 

[peritus]

I'm just taking a wild guess.. Don't be insulted... But I believe the answer to your level differences (but not the hitting tape hard thing) is about mid way through this thread.

 

[FALKEN]

Seeker,

just ignore what the meters are telling you and start experimenting. when it clips you'll know it. you should be able to get away with close to zero hiss.

keep in mind that drums are percussive and sparse...if you recorded a distorted guitar track over your drums I am sure you wouldn't notice this hiss as much.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I know you're right, but I feel I should follow them as a guide anyway. Maybe not, it may just be a bad habit of mine. Problem though is I get this signal going into the MSR which is strong, but when it returns it is on steroids. Is this maybe a result of the level tweaking the tech did to set it up for GP9 or the GP9 itself, and/or is this becase on the tape return inputs on the board you can select between +4db/-10db and the -10 I have selected is boosting the signal as well to compensate for the non-balanced return from the MSR. On this +4/-10 stuff, what is the difference between the two with say a switch like mine. I assume one gives you a boosted signal as the numbers would apply? I'm telling you, that return signal, whether from the MSR or the -10db switch I have selected on the board for the returns or both, kicks the signal quite a bit.

 

[reel buzzer]

Problem though is I get this signal going into the MSR which is strong, but when it returns it is on steroids.

Is this while tracking?

or just during Reproduction/listening?

 

[Seeker of Rock]

All of the above. While tracking, I send the signal in strong. Now I haven't been pushing the envelope and maybe that is my next step that I push until I can detect overload, then pull back from that point. But I set my signal to the meters AND where it sounds like a good signal, I send it out from the board into the MSR, and when it comes back, I get a much stronger signal. I guess not obscenely stronger, but very noticeable volume increase in my monitors as well as on the meters. End signal I am getting is pumped. I can take care of that through the master faders by pulling down just a bit, but I haven't pushed the tracking levels past what the meters are reading because of that, that I know it will come back strong. Mackie 24.8 has a "unity" level. When the signal comes back it is a bit below unity that I pulled it back to on the last sample I posted. If I was to push during tracking I'm thinking I would need to pull it below that unless I set the gain on my 'mastering deck' (the CDRW-700 CD burner) to about '3' or so. I could be wrong, but it seems I should not have to set this so low. Maybe I'm wrong. Like Falken said, it really boils down to what works to your ears, but it raises some red flags when things are out of whack, meter-wise, like this.


EDIT:: Oh yeah, another factor in which I am probably the only one on this forum that is dealing with...I use a digital drumset...an Alesis DM Pro kit. The playing is analog, but the sounds coming out are sampled. Over the last three years, intermittently mind you, I have spent a lot of time tweaking sounds and building 'acoustic' kits. Next to having the real thing, I think I have the sounds pretty decent on it. The feel could be a little better, but not bad at all, again, aside from the real thing. Anyway, the DM Pro brain has a volume which not only affects the headphones but also the signal direct outs, which I obviously use all six of them with different drums assigned to each...kick, snare, two for hi-hats (open/closed and 128 points in between, allegedly), toms, and cymbals. The volume is pretty strong on the DM Pro so I may experiment with taking that down a little since everything else in the recording chain seems to have ample muscle. In theory, I should probably turn the volume on the drum brain up until the signal distorts to get the strongest signal going into the board, but I don't. I have the volume rotary set at about 10-11 o'clock on the dial, probably closer to 10:00.

 

[reel buzzer]

Do you have the L/R button pushed out on all the channels that go to submasters?

 

[arjoll]

But I set my signal to the meters AND where it sounds like a good signal, I send it out from the board into the MSR, and when it comes back, I get a much stronger signal.

What are the meters on the MSR telling you? If it just sounds louder through the Mackie or indicates more on the meter bridge (if you have it) then its a level mismatch, or possibly some summing of signals (which is why reel buzzer asked if you have the L/R buttons in).

If the MSR is indicating more coming out than going in (record some tone if you can, at various levels) then it could be a calibration issue, but that's more Beck and ARP's department. I know that I used to see this kind of effect with Maxell UD 35-90B on an Akai 4000DB; recording at 0 VU would play back at +3.

 

[FALKEN]

dude!

I was going to suggest using a drum machine if you had one but figured I wouldn't even bring it up! what you should do is record something into your drum machine sample box (you can do that right? just record the midi) and then play it back out of the sample box (whatever its called) and as it is playing (and recording into the msr) slowly adjust its output volume over the possible range. then when you play it back you'll know where your sweet spot is.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Do you have the L/R button pushed out on all the channels that go to submasters?

The L/R buttons on the channels I am using are in the down position, engaged.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

What are the meters on the MSR telling you? If it just sounds louder through the Mackie or indicates more on the meter bridge (if you have it) then its a level mismatch, or possibly some summing of signals (which is why reel buzzer asked if you have the L/R buttons in).
QUOTE]

Finally, a night home from work where my kids aren't already in bed and it is still daylight out, and two days off to play with the setup some more. I want to answer your question above, but I need to get better info. I believe on the first distorted track that I was hot in several places, especially the meters on the MSR. They were pretty much all in the red with very little relief, only when pausing between drum hits. I was told that the MSR handles this though. Let me play around with it in the next few hours and see if I can get some better information. And instead of playing the whole kit at once, maybe I should try hitting drum voices individually so I can hear the individual sounds better. The whole kit a'rockin at once seems hard to get any accurate sound. I should know this from my live playing days. Soundmen would never audition the kit all at once, instead drum by drum until the settings were good and then the whole kit. I'm going to get some wine at the store, enjoy a glass or two, a cigarette, and then start to record some stuff. I am at your mercy so if you have anything you think I should try (one drum at a time, setting levels, etc. I can do it and then post the results if that helps.
I don't want to sound cheesey, but you guys are a great help and I really appreciate it.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Well, I played with that volume knob a little more on the DM Pro. For the last three years I have owned it, I only ran L/R out into the 488MKII. Since I now have sixteen tracks and a 24 ch board, I decided to use the other four outs. They are unaffected by the volume knob, but the volume knob most certainly acts as a gain for the two drum voices (in my case kick and snare) that I have assigned out to the L/r jacks. All other levels stay the same. So, I mixed the snare and kick into the overal mix via the volume knob and faders/pre on the Mackie board. I dig the drum sounds. Maybe I'm jaded but I like them for the hard-hitting style I have. Anyway, sent to the MSR. Not sure whether the meters on the MSR are reading input or output, but they are into the reds, but average just into the last bar of green or first bar of red, with variations going further into the red on harder hits. Now it is the tape returns on my Mackie that I just learned a little something about. When I depress the +4/-10 switch it sets the db to -10 (or vice-versa). When I depress it is at +4 and hits the same levels on the Mackie return meters as going in. Although the MSR is rca, I really think I should be running +4, whether it be by the calibrations done to it, the fact it is coming from a "consumer -10" signal into a "professional +4" board or what, that little switch is what is making the steroid boost, seemingly not needed because the return signal at +4 on the board sounds perfect level-wise. Am I missing something here about running the +4 return to the MSR when the MSR is rca in/out (-10db)? If so, please tell me.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Sorry if this is boring, but more info to offer. OK so I re-engaged the -10 button for the tape returns because with +4 I have to push the master fader up well past unity, with -10 it is about 2.5 (db?) below "unity" and it hits the master L/R meters just to the red, occasionally over on a really hard hit, but compression will take care of that once I get everything else in the elementary stages set. Any thoughts thus far?

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Alright, one drum to tell you about, the snare. Snare on the input channel meter right now reads into the "yellow" (Mackie meter board goes from green to yellow, not red, but it is well above "0" on the individual channel meter. Now on the built-in meters on the L/R board they read high as well. But on the analog VU meters (oon the attached meter board that is LED for each channel but VU for the L/R masters, I am barely making them move, and it seems only the snare and kick register slightly on the VUs on the meter board, however they register well into the "yellow" on the internal L/R meters built into the console. The LEDs on the meter board and the internal LEDS in the console seem in synch, but the VUs on the meter board barely register a signal even when the bar LEDs are pumping. Any thoughts or answers? I paid $650 for this damn meter bridge when I got the entire board in pristine condition for only $760.

Again going back to good advice that I should listen to my ears, and I have been, best I can for a 16-bit synthesized drum machine (though not as "drummer" friendly as the TD-20, I still love the sounds of this kit and want to believe I can make it do what I need it to do). Anyways, sounds a little digital dry, but without too much criticism, not bad to me, anyway.
To the point...so maybe I should ignore these LEDs and drive the signal into the board where they are all pegged, until I hear distortion (which in itself is the biggest challenge I am probably facing...making 16-bit, no matter how good the samples internally may be, sound real a capella.

 

[A Reel Person]

I'm sorry I can't debug or reverse engineer your setup,...

or even validate that your MSR/mixer system is set up correctly,...

but +4dbU = 1V and -10dbV = 0.316V, and that's a HUGE difference in terms of operating levels.

Good luck!

Hint: Something's obviously wrong somewhere, 'cause analog's not supposed to be this difficult!! It might also point to the advantage of using a Tascam/Tascam recorder/mixer system. I'm at a loss, 'cause I can't comment on the Mackie directly.

I mean, I could,... but I'd just be shootin' from the hip!

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Dave, you are one of the many true analog heroes in the Analog forum that I completely respect and, aside from the subjectivity of analog and music "to you own ears is right or wrong" factor, completely trust. And you shoot things straight, like analog shouldn't be this difficult. I agree, man. I am comgining the two, especially since I am trying to make a 16 bit drum synthesizer, though I am playing it "live" (and that is probably not the best thing for my tracks ) but as far as drum machines go, I have the DM Pro set up soundwise, maybe not "feelwise" (velocityon the triggers has a bit of work yet, maybe) to give me a decent acoustic kit without the shitty soundroom and irrate neighbors, and unfortunately that's what I have to deal with. Actually, if I bought a real kit, both my neighbors are kind of cool and it may not be that much louder than when I write my drums parts and send it through the board out to the monitors. But this is what I have for now so this is what I am trying so hard to work with.

I played with those +4/-10db levels and yes, the -10db is what I defaulted to after several attempts and level playing with each.
The Mackie 24.8 (and if you remember you recommended the TASCAM I believe 520 to match my MSR when I first got it, but just couldn't find one at the time and got this Mackie 24.8 bus for under $800 (unfortunately without the MB24 which I purchased later) anyway, has a lot of shit, forgive my French as they say, that is COMPLETELY new to me in the process of recording. I have been doing things on a 488MKII prior to this, and when my MSR has not been in the shop, not been working on much as far as learning my new system. Now the MSR is back, and either I use this or get something new depending on whether the recal. to GP9 tape can compensate for the inherent and inevitable 16 tack on 1/2" tape cumulative hiss. But learning the board I think is what is challenging me most right now, but not that easy, so combined with understanding what the MSR is going to or should be taking, and most importantly the source signal, a DM PRO drum kit that I have tried to program and tried and true want to be the drum kit for my recordings. In short, getting to know the Mackie and how it interacts with the MSR and back again is my biggest challenge right now, or so it seems to me. And it is likely just a matter of learning, and seeking advice from the great people on this forum who have helped me and continue to so far.

BTW, I need to post a new track. I have played with the drums and the board and have a sound that I am somewhat happy with through the monitors...just have to learn how to get them to sound like this on the way out of the 2 bus and on final MP3.
BTW, haven't concentrated on hiss or 60 cycle, both that have been plaqueing me, but more on the quality/saturation of the drums and getting them to sound right going into the board. One slow step at a time, I figure. Anyway, just recorded about a 3 minute track of the latest. I'll try and post here soon. My brother in law gets into Hollywood/Ft. Lauderdale airport in about 50 minutes, so that is my only limitation on getting the latest up.
Thanks again for all of the continued support and opinions and help and teaching.
Seeker

 

[Seeker of Rock]

So after a few hours of playing around with this stuff, check this new drumkit sample out. I did soft to hard hits on snare and kick, cymbals, etc, very piecemealed out to hear the individual voices, as well as the whole kit, with a new recording. I haven't listened at a decent volume, so I can't say on the hiss. I think the 60 cycle hum is gone, but I need to actually listen to my post to be sure. Anyway, below is the link and it is "MSRdrumsample2". I left "MSRdrumsample" up just to compare on what I am doing and where I am going with the sound be it better or worse. I'd appreciate any advice.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=244666

Oh yeah, don't judge the playing. I think I was half way or more through a 1.5 litre bottle of wine during playing, not that I'm much better completely sober, but I'm looking for feedback on levels, sound of the drums, mix, etc.

 

[arjoll]

Hi Seeker - I know you'll have run out of time today by now, but time zones suck - your first post was late morning here, and I've been basically out in the garden all this lovely summer's day!

Reading through your posts, here are my thoughts - bearing in mind that I am not an expert on this stuff like ARP, Ghost, Beck or cjacek so their advice should carry a bit more weight

1. From memory your MSR16 was calibrated a few dB lower than GP9 because your tech got to some limits in how high he could tweak it. If this is the case then you may be hitting some limits in the electronics which are contributing to your problems. I would try keeping the levels peaking a bit below zero (sod the tape hiss) and see if this improves things.

2. Not sure on the drum machine stuff, I'm not familiar with that at all, but I'd take each output into a channel on your Mackie and assign each to a subgroup (just for the moment). Make sure your levels are good on the Mackie's metering. I'd keep snare, hi hat and cymbals down a bit. Take the subgroup outputs to the MSR (through TSR-RCA leads, you might need to keep the levels down a bit further, use the level meters on the MSR as a guide).

3. I still think you need to check your levels through the system. I've had a look and I see the 24.8 doesn't have a tone source, but you could use a keyboard, guitar tuner or even some software - I just googled "tone generator" +freeware and found this. Put it through a channel in the Mackie, assign it to each subgroup and see how the levels compare. You'll probably need to wind the Mackie's groups down a bit to hit zero on the MSR.

4. Then we come to the meter bridge. If the MSR is dancing but the meter bridge is barely moving then the meter bridge is operating at +4. This is an indication that, if you still have the returns running +4, that they should be -10. If everything that can be set to -10 on the Mackie is set to -10 then its time to start looking at balanced/unbalanced converters.

5. Your MSR definately is -10, not +4. All the calibrations for GP9 are at the tape 'end' of the machine, they should not have changed the levels at the input and output jacks.

ARP is absolutely right - none of this should be a major issue, its just getting your head around interfacing between consumer and pro levels.

Do you know anyone with a basic understanding of electronics? If so I can PM over some very basic designs for balanced/unbalanced and unbalanced/balanced converters using op-amps, should cost you just a couple of dollars per channel.

(anyone else can now tell me I don't know what I'm talking about )

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I appeciate your feedback, man. I felt pretty comfortable with the latest drum sample until I heard some 60 cycle hum. I just realized about 10 seconds ago and under extreme anebriation, mind you, that it was coming from the computer speakers. Anyway, click on the latest link if you would and give me some feedback. I think the kit sounds decent, but then again you guys may think my ears are fucked or I'm smoking too much crack. The only way I can get this thing nailed down is to get the sound right, and the best way to get the sound right is through you guys critiquing me.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Listened again, still sounds like 60 cycle in there. I isolated the MSR circuit, what more could it be?
Can you posts links of places you would feel comforable buying used reel multitracks? I'm thinking I would like to get another MSR for parts, or maybe look into another recorder if this 60 cycle hum is here to stay.