Share a songwriting tip/trick/technique.

LIMiT said:
Referring to my post 'songs can't be writtin in 1 sitting'


If you think your song is at its best after writing it in one sitting, then all the best.

Personally, am not that arrogant, ... and feel it takes a long time to come up with the perfect melody to serve the music, or vice versa.

Good songs have 'dips and valleys', and evoke emotion, even its most simplistic form (ie. guitar/vox, piano, vox, acapella).

Hard to do in one sitting.

MHO.

-LIMiT
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I think he said it CAN be done in one sitting, not that it always is. He is correct. I know people who can knock out a good song in 15 minutes. They are very naturally talented.

However, most of the rest of us need to rewrite at least once. That is me for the most part. But I have also knocked off some good songs in one session (about 2-3 hours) that, IMO, did not need to be rewritten. It happens.

It's probably a little arrogant to think that your way is the only way...

;)
 
chazba said:
I just ordered the MasterWriter demo by mail for $9.95. I don't expect it to automate my songwriting. If it would, I wouldn't have ordered it. It does look like a valuable tool for organizing projects and maybe getting some stim out of it.
I have used rhyming dictionaries in the past, from time to time, but like MasterWriter, they are only tools. The best writing tool of all is the wetwear between your ears. If you ain't got it there, you will never be able to even string together an interesting sentence. There is a thread that asks "How can you tell if someone has writing talent? " or words to that effect. The answer is "Read something that they have written!" You can tell pretty quickly.
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I use MasterWriter and love it. MasterWriter will NOT make you a good or even better writer. It will however, IMVHO, give a good writer tools at their fingertips to help them be more efficient in the process. I have seldom used a rhyme from MasterWriter or any other rhymer that I specifically looked for. However, I have many times ended up going in a different direction than originally intended by tooling around in phrases or rhymes. I also have seldom (actually I don't think ever) copied and pasted a phrase from MasterWriter. However, phrases have expanded my thinking. Sort of like a co-writer does, but not quite as interactive :D.

What I like best about the program is the ability to catalog ideas and songs and helping with the administrative aspects of writing (keeping track of pitches, co-writers, etc.). With a little creativity I have molded the MasterWriter modules into some very useful features to help me with my writing. I'm still not sorry I bought the software.

You can do everything MasterWriter does by setting up your own little systems too. And that's cool. I just like having it all in one place and for me it was worth every penny. YMMV.

In all fairness and in full disclosure I am in the affiliate program for MasterWriter. I'm not actively promoting the product but I liked it so much that I wrote them and told them I was linking to their site and giving my testamony on my site. They responded with the affiliate offer. If you think it would be usefull to you in your songwriting you can get a $70 discount if you order through my site (use my code). If you don't, then don't order it. :D

The bottom line is that it will not make you a good writer. No more than a dictionary or thesaurus or Excel or Word will. You have to put that work in yourself and have some God given talent. But I still think it is a pretty cool tool.
 
-Third person
Hide within the confines of what someone else might or might not be thinking. How about what you'd like them to think? In this position, you can 'get away' with things that you wouldn't be able to if it were understood that it were coming directly from you. The comic writer Dan Clowes' film Ghost World is a great example. He voices all of his somewhat unpopular observations through a 16 year old girl. If the main character was a 40 something year old single guy who drew comics with the same thoughts, it would have been taken in a completely different way.

-Lie
Why's everyone so fuckin honest and open these days? Even sincerity gets really boring after a while. Make some shit up.
 
none

Ill tell you right now none of this stuff works well in writing songs. All of this is bullshit and its basically just waiting for good ideas to happen like a happy accident.

If you are talking about writing lyrics then there is one way to go about it that is better than anything else you can do. Just get a thesaurus and go through it page by page and take out words and phrases that mean something to you personally. Words you like and like hearing in other songs you love. Pick only words and phrases with alot of emotion and character to them. Leave out any that have questionable emotion value. ONve you have gotten many lists of nouns and verbs and adjectives and so on, start trying to make little phrases out of them, even if they dont make much sense at first what you are doing is creating using ONLY highly emotional and characterized words. Which that alone will load the phrases with excitement. Honestly no one wants to hear about the particulars of your mindset. You have to relate in a way that is more universal than that. And how that is done is with highly emotional words. Certain words come loaded with emotion from the start because people have heard the word before and when you put it in your song they recall the emotion associated with that word from their whole life. No one would say the word "diseased" conjures up nice imagery. So used emotionally loaded words and phrases from the start. Forget your personal crusade and put emotion first. When you write about your thoughts all the time, they will seem more complete of ideas because you are relating to it in a personal way. It blinds you to the songs weaknesses and shortcomings. So start from scratch. Your personality will come out through the words and phrases YOU choose while going through the thesaurus. Never use it for rhyming. That shit is practically a waste of time and it will make 9 out of 10 rhymes seem forced. I swear i can hear a forced rhyme.

If you are writing melody then there are a few ways you can go about it. Since melody at its CORE is a just a pattern laid against the songs underlying meter, than first assess what the songs meter is. Now when i say meter i mean where the stressed and unstressed counts fall. Does the 1 and the 3 get the stressed counts? Just the 1 maybe? These are the questions you have to ask yourself when determining the meter. This is so you can determine where the masculine and feminine counts lie. Remember that melody is a rhythm that is superimposed over the songs meter. If you put only notes on the stressed counts you will have to use alot of non chord notes to keep it interesting. Or better yet, you should mix up masculine (on the stressed count) and feminine (on the unstressed count). If you put non chord notes on the unstressed counts the brain doesnt recognize them as being exciting. They are just swept up with everything else like the words "the" and "and" in a sentence. They are practically assumed. But if you put non chord notes on the stressed counts, the brain notices them easily and it breathes INSTANT life into your melodies. This is the technique you will hear used in 99 pecent of all hit songs or great songs ever written. The Beatles used this in every song they wrote, and they learned how to do it from the musicians they studied and copied. NON CHORD NOTES on stressed counts is the backbone of creative melody writing when things are getting too predictable.

Ever break out a chord progression that is very simple and seems a little too predictable? Well the solution to that problem is just to put some non chord notes on the stressed counts. That, if done correctly and creatively, solve any predictability in the song. Take for example the FANTASTIC well written song that the Beatles covered "Devil in Her Heart". Its Am, D, G. I bet youve written those chords a million times in that order even. Why is that such a great song and all yours suck? Well its because the original writer of the song sensed the predictability of the progression and added non chord notes through out the melody to keep it interesting and give it life beyond all the other million tunes that go Am, D, G. Youll find it in all Beatles tunes as well.

This is not the only melodic device that can be used, but at least it will help you, if you didnt already use this trick, to write better melodies. Dont ever EVER think for one second that writing songs is about just sitting around waiting for a good idea to come. Even a GREAT idea isnt shit without a ton of planning and building around the idea. Once you come up with your "spark" you have to assess it for what is going on at the binary level. Then build the rest of the idea around it. If you dont youll end up just framing the one creative part you came up with and it will result in a song that is the equivalent of eating ice cream at every meal. Too much of one thing sucks. That translates into this kind of logic... if the progression is predictable, make the melody stand out with unusual melodic devices, if the progression is strange or unusual, make the melody simple and stay away from notes other than the simple chord tones. Always undo one element with another. That way the human brain can derive pleasure from unexpectedness without losing track of what it is following.

Another quick melodic device that will help you is knowing that melody only moves in two distinct ways, stepwise (1 or 2 semitones) or leaps (3 or more semitones). Never put too many steps in a row without a leap and never put too many leaps in a row without some stepping. Steps are predictable, but too predictable is boring. Too many leaps is unpredictable but the brain doesnt keep up for long. Meet the listener half way and keep your melodies varied between stepwise and leapwise. Sound like bullshit? Then how come its the cornerstone almost without exception in all great songs regardless of genre or decade? You will find all of these devices time and time again with OBVIOUS intent in the works of the great songwriters.

So there you go, now you can WORK on your songs instead of just waiting around with your recorder hoping inspiration strikes.
 
Heh. Not sure how I feel about that thesaurus idea yet. I mean there have been times when I've thought of how cool it would be to use certain words in a song, so maybe its not such a bad idea.

All around good advice though. Its really good to chase down ideas occasionally. When you go hunting you don't stay in one place and hope the deer or pheasant or judge walks right in front of you. You stalk it and chase it down!

Bad analogy, anyways, good call jill chaw
 
go outside and experience life. sometimes drugs work for people too, sometimes they don't. approach writing differently. use a different instrument, start by writing the music instead of the lyrics or vice versa. write in a genre that is unfamiliar to you. practice and memorize other songs, the music theory will subconciously creep in to your own writing.
 
Ced said:
Personnaly, I write some lyrics every time I'm lying in bed unable to sleep. I can get very good sentences/ideas by this time.
I try to be the more metaphorical I can so that only me know what I'm talking about. Proceeding that way, everyone can make their idea on what the song is about.

Ced
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Bullseye :) .

Adam
 
Read the lyrics of master songwriters, and emulate the form... put the rhyme in the same places... keep the meter and the song form...

I don't do it, but I read it works well :)
 
Jagular said:
I think he said it CAN be done in one sitting, not that it always is. He is correct. I know people who can knock out a good song in 15 minutes. They are very naturally talented.

However, most of the rest of us need to rewrite at least once. That is me for the most part. But I have also knocked off some good songs in one session (about 2-3 hours) that, IMO, did not need to be rewritten. It happens.

It's probably a little arrogant to think that your way is the only way...

;)
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I never said my way was the only way. I never said it was 'my way'.

I'm sure a song written in 2-3 hours can sound quite good.

But in that time, (in my experience) you've found your 'hook' and are trying to write a song around it.

Lets say for example, you sing 'Close your eyes', and it sounds great, flows beatifully accompanied by your instrument of choice, and you start building your song around it. Right there you've already stunted your song, by comitting to that phrase, rather than the melody.

I beleive it best (using the same example) to humm your hook... 'hmmm hmm hmmmm', and let that melody dictate how the song flows.
Once you have the melody picked out for the entire song, when you come back to your hook..the song could have taken on an entire new feel..and you may end up with...'In your eyes'...or ... 'learn to fly'...

I am not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to do this in one sitting, but it's very rare.

Cheers,

LIMiT
 
I really have to agree with LIMiT - Re-writing is essential to successful writing (in the commercial sense of success). Since this whole thread was based on the craft of writing - I think being able to embrace the need to re-write is one of the most important parts of the craft.

Have there been good songs written in one pass? No doubt! Is it rare? Almost a given!! Could those songs have been even better with a re-write? We'll never know, but I would suggest a better than 50% chance.

Perhaps suggesting someone is arrogant in thinking they can ace a song in one pass is a little harsh - however, I would suggest thinking that a song written in one pass is as good as it can be may be either naive or closed minded.

As a writer (again in reference to and reverance of the craft) I choose to re-write, hoping to find a better word here or a slight change of melody there trying to make a fair song good and perhaps on the rarest of occasions to make a good song great. I can only speak for myself, but of the 200 or so songs I've written the few that I thought were special and the fewer still that have been published and or placed were not that good after the first sitting. Only after a 2nd, 5th 10th (whatever) re-write (some at the insistance of my publisher) was I able to accept that it was as good as I could make it.

The muse may hit and give us the gift of a hook or a phrase - but do we not owe it to the muse to then spend the time to shape that wonderful little snippet into something meaningful??? If we take the muse for granted she may choose not to return!!!
 
mikeh said:
I really have to agree with LIMiT - Re-writing is essential to successful writing (in the commercial sense of success). Since this whole thread was based on the craft of writing - I think being able to embrace the need to re-write is one of the most important parts of the craft.

Have there been good songs written in one pass? No doubt! Is it rare? Almost a given!! Could those songs have been even better with a re-write? We'll never know, but I would suggest a better than 50% chance.

Perhaps suggesting someone is arrogant in thinking they can ace a song in one pass is a little harsh - however, I would suggest thinking that a song written in one pass is as good as it can be may be either naive or closed minded.

As a writer (again in reference to and reverance of the craft) I choose to re-write, hoping to find a better word here or a slight change of melody there trying to make a fair song good and perhaps on the rarest of occasions to make a good song great. I can only speak for myself, but of the 200 or so songs I've written the few that I thought were special and the fewer still that have been published and or placed were not that good after the first sitting. Only after a 2nd, 5th 10th (whatever) re-write (some at the insistance of my publisher) was I able to accept that it was as good as I could make it.

The muse may hit and give us the gift of a hook or a phrase - but do we not owe it to the muse to then spend the time to shape that wonderful little snippet into something meaningful??? If we take the muse for granted she may choose not to return!!!
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Well written!

FWIW - I did not mean to be harsh when I made the comment about arrogance, and apologize if I did. If fact, arrogance and confidence walk hand in hand, and more often than not makes for a great front man, and is more often that not needed to make important decisions in songwriting, in the 'having a vision' sense.

I was just trying to emphasize my point that a great song requires hard work, and experimentation to find the best way to get your message/point/emotion across.

Cheers,

LIMiT
 
try writing a HUGE list of words, then select a few at a time and try and piece them together. That helped me on a few songs, plus it helps after youve written a bunch of songs and you keep coming up with a lot of the same ideas. Changes it up a bit.
 
LIMiT said:
Well written!

FWIW - I did not mean to be harsh when I made the comment about arrogance, and apologize if I did. If fact, arrogance and confidence walk hand in hand, and more often than not makes for a great front man, and is more often that not needed to make important decisions in songwriting, in the 'having a vision' sense.

I was just trying to emphasize my point that a great song requires hard work, and experimentation to find the best way to get your message/point/emotion across.

Cheers,

LIMiT
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Lest anyone think I am making things sound overly simple...

I agree. If most beginners realized what hard work it is (to be good enough and visible enough to make a living at it) they would probably not even start. There are much easier and surer ways to make money if that is what one is after.

If someone wants to attain commercial success they very likely will need to pour a lot of their time & resources into it. Networking is essential (at least in Nashville). Getting out and meeting other writers, up and coming artists and publishers at events & writers' nights. It doesn't hurt to live near the action either. If you are out doing all of that stuff AND writing killer songs you just might get one of your songs on an album of that new artist you wrote with. Or one of your co-writers might get a staff deal and some of your co-writes just might get pitched. Or you just might get to golf with a publisher and start a relationship that way.

So what I am saying is that the hard work is not just limited to the writing process itself. There is the networking, pitching and administration of your songs (keeping track of your pitches and meetings etc.). Very time consuming with very little initial financial reward in the beginning. There is also an element of luck but, generally, the harder you work the luckier you get ;)

Yet sometimes gifts fall from the sky and we just need to get out of the way. Rarely, but sometimes.
 
John Lennon and Paul McCartney were asked how they went about writing a song. They said there were two things they ALWAYS did when they sat down to write a song. First, they sat down. Second, they wrote a song.

So, there ya go.
 
I must say Eddie...your emulations of wisdom have ignited my heart, ignited my heart. I got to get a paper and pen...you have ignited my heart, ignited my heart. Baby whisper those words to me again, you've layed down the path from where you been...ignited my heart, ignited my heart.....


Now look what you started Eddie !! :eek: :D :D
 
true-eurt said:
I must say Eddie...your emulations of wisdom have ignited my heart, ignited my heart. I got to get a paper and pen...you have ignited my heart, ignited my heart. Baby whisper those words to me again, you've layed down the path from where you been...ignited my heart, ignited my heart.....


Now look what you started Eddie !! :eek: :D :D
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Oh baby! More please. I'm sitting down. I can take it. :D
 
I developed a brainstorming template that I use for writing songs. I developed this a couple of years ago based on a songwriting seminar that I went to. I basically codified my notes into a form which also acts as a sort of check to see if I have covered at lease some of the "typical" components in a well written song. Like any tool, this won't make you a good writer. But it might help you solidify your thoughts and have a form to jot down a bunch of stuff that you might use in the song all in one place. I actually have this template set up as a standard form in the templates portion in MasterWriter for each song I write. I don't always use it in its entirety but it helps codify and brainstorm sometimes. Sometimes I end up not using it at all if something is just flowing. Like I said. It's a tool. It's not a formula.

If anyone has any questions on the headings I use and what they mean I would be glad to expound. Just ask.

I have put this in a MSWord file on my site. You can download it here if you like...

http://www.johnkscott.com/Temp/brainstorming_template.doc

Use it if you want. Chuck it if it ain't your style.
 
Definitely good stuff. I never would have guessed there'd be people here touting absolutes.

My writing honest, first person narratives generally ends up with awkward results that I never feel good about performing. I do best when I lie. When I "act" like a character and invoke his or her emotions. I am probably like a half a chromosome from being autistic, so my personal honest feelings could be represented by a pile of metal shavings at a mill.

Rewriting? Out of all my songs, the top 2, one was completely written music and words all in one shot and the other was rewritten a million times and has had the key changed and verses swapped. I think the spontaneous one is better. The flow is better. It's better art, I think. The contrived one is a good piece of work, but I can feel every edit in it. I think there is a huge risk when revising to remove emotion and flow and, well... magic, I guess.

One tip I have, that works for me, is to not communicate with other people for a certain period of time. No HR board. No bullshitting with co-workers. Ignore your kids ;) . Just being alone with your thoughts. Once you build up some syllables inside your brain you can put them to something productive instead of wasting them on jimistone or the dork that sits in the cube across from you.
 
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