Setup help please !!!

[cjacek]

Hello,

I pretty much gave up on "digital multitrackers". I started out with a TASCAM 414, loved it, but then leapt into getting one of these "all in one" digital recorders. I tried many over the months. (The place I go also rents ). I tried the crap first like the BOSS 532 and the went to the higher end stuff like the BOSS 1180 and then even to the very popular KORG D1200. I tried some others as well. Anyway, my point is that I could NEVER get used to these so called "digital multitrackers". I simply loved ANALOG and even though the 414 paled in comparison to the BOSS or KORG or YAMAHA, I simply "craved" that "real world", almost "organic" experience that I've had with my first multitracker. But I'm not here to debate one vs another. I'm asking for some advice cause from now on it's ANALOG for me .. and that's FINAL!!
Tomorrow I'm picking up a TASCAM 424 mkIII, which is the more pro version of the 414. It meets my needs as I sing only to pre-recorded music - I'm only a vocalist. Anyway, I'm not a big fan of compression so that's out as I'm pretty good at mic technique. Other than the 424 I need a good pre-amp and a reverb unit. I KNOW I wanna get a LEXICON 100 at least but I'm a little stumped on a mic pre. Sure, I can get one of those $100 ART TUBE MP's, as I had one and liked it but my question to you is: am I gonna be better off using the 424's preamps for now, skip the cheap external preamp, and wait a few months, get my money together, and get a slammin', more up scale mic pre ? What is your advice with regards to this ? I just want to get my vocals to be great sounding and, I was advised, a good mic and a mic pre are essential. Can a good mic pre make THAT much difference ? What is your advice. By the way, and please don't get pissed at me, I VERY much dislike singing to a condenser. I like to use a hand-held mic and SHURE BETA 58A is the one I've used and use. Can any one please make some suggestions with regards to the mic -pre ? Skip the cheap one ? Use the 424's pre's for now ? Save up and get a "good one" ? Ok, perhaps not an AVALON as they can get into many thousands but is there something close to that for under a thousand ?? (Don't laugh ). Also, I perhaps will need a way to reduce "rumble" or "mud" when I sing into my mic. I also would like to increase "presence" and "bigness" of sound. Will a good mic pre do that ? What do I look for in a mic pre with my present set-up ?

Thank you so much in advance,

Daniel

 

[analogelectric]

What to do...(My opinion)

Daniel,

My opinion:

Almost anything is better than the pre’s in the 424. Considering what you’re using you’re not going to get a real pro sound. Cassette tape doesn’t have as much room for frequencies especially the fact it’s being broken up into 4 segments. The best I’ve ever done using a 4-track is when I used a Telefunken U47 tube through a Neve 1272 pre amp. Even then it still didn’t sound great but it was better. It helped that I mixed the 4-track through a Trident Series 24 console completely bypassing the EQ on the 4-track.

All of the above is a bit pricy and if you could afford it you probably wouldn’t be using a 4-track.

So let’s work with what you got. If you’re getting ‘rumble’ and ‘mud’ from the mic, you might be singing too close to the mic. I’d suggest buying or making a pop filter so you don’t ‘rumble’ the mic. Holding it while you’re singing can cause rumbling if you’re not careful. I’d even suggest an Aphex 107 tube pre amp. They don’t have a lot of character (the tube isn’t used as gain) but they are clean, inexpensive, dual channel, and have an 80Hz cut off pad. With the money left over get a dual parametric EQ. This would probably help by subtracting unwanted frequencies while bringing out the best qualities on the voice. It takes a bit of experimentation but it would suit you well for what you’re doing. Actually I’d again suggest the Aphex 109 EQ for the job also. Now that you have spent less than $300 on a pre and EQ you have some money for a compressor. Compress the vocal to make it ‘bigger’ and ‘rounder’. Too much compression will mud the vocals so make sure either you play around with either pre or post EQ for the desired result. A little verb or double delay on the vocals help too. Seems like a lot to do just to get a vocal sound but even pro’s do more to a vocal than anything else while the end product still sounding ‘natural’.

I wouldn’t be afraid to find a new mic for the job too. I don’t know what you don’t like or have used in regards to condenser mics but they sound much richer than a dynamic, to me. Really though if you go dynamic on vocal and like the Beta58’s then learn how to ‘work the mic’. Performance is one thing but distance, breath control, and delivery is very important when singing into a mic. One thing lost over the years and unknown to some home enthusiasts is back before compression artists had to understand the methods of singing into a mic. Elvis, Frank Sinatra, and Ella Fitzgerald, to name a few, get great vocal sounds because they were coached on how to use the mic properly for the desired result. It’s something overlooked and taken for granted these days (although most upper scale studios still coach artists on how to do it). It makes everything a lot easier in the end for both the performer and the engineer (if you’re both then the takes will be more solid).

A thousand dollar mic pre through a cassette 4 track will help some but not much but anything other than the pre's in the 424 will be an improvement. You can spend that money on a bunch of other things for less and use them for other things.

--AdamLazlo

 

[cjacek]

Re: What to do...(My opinion)

Daniel,

My opinion:

Almost anything is better than the pre’s in the 424. Considering what you’re using you’re not going to get a real pro sound. Cassette tape doesn’t have as much room for frequencies especially the fact it’s being broken up into 4 segments. The best I’ve ever done using a 4-track is when I used a Telefunken U47 tube through a Neve 1272 pre amp. Even then it still didn’t sound great but it was better. It helped that I mixed the 4-track through a Trident Series 24 console completely bypassing the EQ on the 4-track.

All of the above is a bit pricy and if you could afford it you probably wouldn’t be using a 4-track.

So let’s work with what you got. If you’re getting ‘rumble’ and ‘mud’ from the mic, you might be singing too close to the mic. I’d suggest buying or making a pop filter so you don’t ‘rumble’ the mic. Holding it while you’re singing can cause rumbling if you’re not careful. I’d even suggest an Aphex 107 tube pre amp. They don’t have a lot of character (the tube isn’t used as gain) but they are clean, inexpensive, dual channel, and have an 80Hz cut off pad. With the money left over get a dual parametric EQ. This would probably help by subtracting unwanted frequencies while bringing out the best qualities on the voice. It takes a bit of experimentation but it would suit you well for what you’re doing. Actually I’d again suggest the Aphex 109 EQ for the job also. Now that you have spent less than $300 on a pre and EQ you have some money for a compressor. Compress the vocal to make it ‘bigger’ and ‘rounder’. Too much compression will mud the vocals so make sure either you play around with either pre or post EQ for the desired result. A little verb or double delay on the vocals help too. Seems like a lot to do just to get a vocal sound but even pro’s do more to a vocal than anything else while the end product still sounding ‘natural’.

I wouldn’t be afraid to find a new mic for the job too. I don’t know what you don’t like or have used in regards to condenser mics but they sound much richer than a dynamic, to me. Really though if you go dynamic on vocal and like the Beta58’s then learn how to ‘work the mic’. Performance is one thing but distance, breath control, and delivery is very important when singing into a mic. One thing lost over the years and unknown to some home enthusiasts is back before compression artists had to understand the methods of singing into a mic. Elvis, Frank Sinatra, and Ella Fitzgerald, to name a few, get great vocal sounds because they were coached on how to use the mic properly for the desired result. It’s something overlooked and taken for granted these days (although most upper scale studios still coach artists on how to do it). It makes everything a lot easier in the end for both the performer and the engineer (if you’re both then the takes will be more solid).

A thousand dollar mic pre through a cassette 4 track will help some but not much but anything other than the pre's in the 424 will be an improvement. You can spend that money on a bunch of other things for less and use them for other things.

--AdamLazlo

Thank you very much, Adam, for your detailed reply. It's funny you should mention Elvis 'cause I'm a big fan, have all the studio outtakes and all and agree that listenning to "unsweetened" "takes" one can hear mic technique and sense damn good equipment, room acoustics etc .. Even though many artists use condensers, and Elvis was one, in the 70's Elvis in the studio primarily used a dynamic mic and the sounds captured was great! At the same time they use very expensive preamps and reel to reels which gave even digital multitrack recorders a run for their money So yeah, I tend to agree that if all you got to record to is a 424 TASCAM with its limited freq range and other limitations, then buying a thousand $$$ preamp is not going to make as much difference as recording to reel to reel. Is this what you're saying ? It's strange then why a store sales guy recommended I buy a $2000 preamp for my 424 I know that more money will get you a better preamp but what is the point of diminishing results when I record onto a 424 ?? Anyway, thanks again for the reply and suggestions.

Daniel

 

[Sennheiser]

It's strange then why a store sales guy recommended I buy a $2000 preamp for my 424

He probably had bills to pay.

No one in their right mind would make that recommendation based on what you are using.

The pre's in your machine are probably useable for the format you are recording with. I had pretty decent sounding pre's in my 488 MKII for what it was and I didn't sweat it drooling over a bunch of $300-$500 pre's that cost more than my rig did.

You would get some improvement with the right pre/mic combination. I use the console pre's on my TASCAM M-1516 and usually the Sennheiser MD-441U for a vocal and I have never heard a complaint from listeners yet.

Don't sweat it. Try getting a better mic first. If your room is not treated like mine or has acoustic problems, a tight dynamic might be your best choice. Buy the best you can afford. It will last you a lifetime.

 

[cjacek]

He probably had bills to pay.

No one in their right mind would make that recommendation based on what you are using.

The pre's in your machine are probably useable for the format you are recording with. I had pretty decent sounding pre's in my 488 MKII for what it was and I didn't sweat it drooling over a bunch of $300-$500 pre's that cost more than my rig did.

You would get some improvement with the right pre/mic combination. I use the console pre's on my TASCAM M-1516 and usually the Sennheiser MD-441U for a vocal and I have never heard a complaint from listeners yet.

Don't sweat it. Try getting a better mic first. If your room is not treated like mine or has acoustic problems, a tight dynamic might be your best choice. Buy the best you can afford. It will last you a lifetime.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. Yeah, I can see what you're saying 'cause I just unpacked my 424 mkIII and did an A/B using an external preamp (art tube mp) and just the 424's onboard pres and found .......................... ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE!! I can't believe that the art tube mp is pretty much comperable to the pres on my 424 Can this be true ?? Anyway, I do have very poor room acoustics and can't use anything else than my SHURE BETA 58A dynamic mic - one of their best and top line dynamic mics. Plan is to return the tube mp to the store and get a LEXICON mpx100 (for reverb) and use the 424's pre's, at least for now. Should I plan on getting anything else in the future to add to my setup, between my mic and the 424 chain I mean ? So, are external mic pre's out of the question then ? I know the art tube mp is

So as it stands I have: TASCAM 424 MKIII ------ SHURE BETA 58A --------- and will get a LEXICON 100 or 200 (their entry reverb units) ... What else do I need ? I used a vocal strip in the past, the Behringer Voice Pro but most of the stuff sounded poor. I liked the cut filter and perhaps the EQ but the rest was crap. Would you suggest I get an external mic pre eventually or this is not recommended ? If I should then what should I be looking at and at what price range and what should I expect ? Obviously I'm not gonna look at any $2000 Avalons

Thanks again,

Daniel

 

[Sennheiser]

I wouldn't bother with an external pre until you move out of the cassette format where you can really take advantage of it. On the other hand you'll never outgrow a great dynamic mic.

I'm still debating about whether or not to by a good pre. I know I will eventually, but I'm only gonna buy it once. Just like my dynamic mics. The pre's in my console are not Neve, but they are much better than a Porta's pre's. I'd be wasting my money if I bought a pre and didn't spend at least $500 on it.

I think you will get more use and better results by getting the Lexicon. Think about a decent compressor in the very near future.

I've had good results with DBX products. The RNC (Really Nice Compressor. No joke, that's really it's name) gets very good reviews here, but I've grown to like my DBX262. I've been using one since '97. Some have mentioned quirks with the RNC, but I think based on what I've read that it's a solid unit and an excellent value for the money.

You might think about moving to 1/2" or 1" format if you have the budget. Sounds like you might be ready.

 

[cjacek]

I wouldn't bother with an external pre until you move out of the cassette format where you can really take advantage of it. On the other hand you'll never outgrow a great dynamic mic.

I'm still debating about whether or not to by a good pre. I know I will eventually, but I'm only gonna buy it once. Just like my dynamic mics. The pre's in my console are not Neve, but they are much better than a Porta's pre's. I'd be wasting my money if I bought a pre and didn't spend at least $500 on it.

I think you will get more use and better results by getting the Lexicon. Think about a decent compressor in the very near future.

I've had good results with DBX products. The RNC (Really Nice Compressor. No joke, that's really it's name) gets very good reviews here, but I've grown to like my DBX262. I've been using one since '97. Some have mentioned quirks with the RNC, but I think based on what I've read that it's a solid unit and an excellent value for the money.

You might think about moving to 1/2" or 1" format if you have the budget. Sounds like you might be ready.

Thanks again for the help and you're right, I just did a search on eBay for some 4 track reel to reel TASCAMs so I'm definitely thinking about this. Problem is that I'm not sure what to look for in a used 4 track reel to reel or will it fall appart when I get it or ... Is there another way to get my hands on these beauties without having it shipped to you ? Would some local studios have some in their back rooms, for example ?

Always grateful,

Daniel

 

[Sennheiser]

You never know. Not many studios in my area, so for me those chances would be around zero.

Most of what you will find at a pro or project studio will likely be the TASCAM 40 or 50 series. Some smaller project studios might have a 38 stashed somewhere. If you live in one of the music business areas like LA, Nashville, NY, Atlanta, or Miami, your chances of finding one and driving to inspect it is much greater.

The 38 is the entry level machine for large format machines. This was for the guy who wanted a 58 and couldn't afford it. Still a good entry level machine and beats the heck out of a Porta studio in every respect. The 48 was a step up from the 38, and the 58 was the big-time for eight track 1/2" machines. It's built like a tank and weight almost as much. Heavy-duty everything on this machine. Better electronics and 30 IPS transport speed too. No noise reduction required. N/R recommended for the 38 as it is only a 15 IPS machine. The DBX units clear up the hiss remarkably well. In fact I can't hear any at all on playback of a mix during the leader and trailer sections of tape.

Most us us have done the homework about the unit in question and grilled the seller to death to make sure he's not trying to blow sunshine up our skirts to unload a bum unit on an unsuspecting buyer. I have found that most who live with rose colored glasses on are the ones who get burned on E-bay. Ask a lot of questions. You can find out alot about the seller by the responses received. Check feedback and be wary of ANY negative feedback. The next one might be you.

Ask about head wear, if it's been re-lapped once, how many hours approximately (if they even know), condition of the pinch roller, how the braking action is, transport action, condition of the meters and lamps. Ask them when was the last time it was aligned and calibrated. Beware of the seller who has the unit but cannot test it. Do not buy one from someone who does not/has not used a tape machine before. If they say they have no way of testing it, steer clear unless they offer a return policy that includes DOA, or other problems. It's best to buy one of these from an individual who has moved to digital, or has quit the hobby and wants to get it out of the way. Even a pristine looking machine that looks as though it just rolled out of TASCAM QC can be fried inside. Just because the meter lamps light doesn't mean there isn't something wrong. Insist on a take-up reel and a reel of tape. Even if it's used. I did and got a brand new reel of 456.

I don't want to scare you off. There are a lot of these old workhorses still doing major duty at a lot of analog project studios. Hey, the B-52 is almost 50 years old, and it's still being used. Why not a 15 year old tape deck? Most are in good to excellent condition and have several years of life left in them. Parts can be found and they are not that hard to work on if you ever have to. Mine's been running smoothly since July and gets a workout every weekend or so.

If you do decide to move up in the future I would not get anything less than an eight track machine. The sound is fat on a 1/2" four track granted, but those four tape tracks go just as fast on a 1/2" machine as they do on a Porta. Think about what you may want to record in the future even if you're just playing the guitar and singing at this point.

When you do move up, your eyes will bug out and your jaw will drop to the floor the first time you hear your first recording played back. You won't believe the difference.

 

[cjacek]

You never know. Not many studios in my area, so for me those chances would be around zero.

Most of what you will find at a pro or project studio will likely be the TASCAM 40 or 50 series. Some smaller project studios might have a 38 stashed somewhere. If you live in one of the music business areas like LA, Nashville, NY, Atlanta, or Miami, your chances of finding one and driving to inspect it is much greater.

The 38 is the entry level machine for large format machines. This was for the guy who wanted a 58 and couldn't afford it. Still a good entry level machine and beats the heck out of a Porta studio in every respect. The 48 was a step up from the 38, and the 58 was the big-time for eight track 1/2" machines. It's built like a tank and weight almost as much. Heavy-duty everything on this machine. Better electronics and 30 IPS transport speed too. No noise reduction required. N/R recommended for the 38 as it is only a 15 IPS machine. The DBX units clear up the hiss remarkably well. In fact I can't hear any at all on playback of a mix during the leader and trailer sections of tape.

Most us us have done the homework about the unit in question and grilled the seller to death to make sure he's not trying to blow sunshine up our skirts to unload a bum unit on an unsuspecting buyer. I have found that most who live with rose colored glasses on are the ones who get burned on E-bay. Ask a lot of questions. You can find out alot about the seller by the responses received. Check feedback and be wary of ANY negative feedback. The next one might be you.

Ask about head wear, if it's been re-lapped once, how many hours approximately (if they even know), condition of the pinch roller, how the braking action is, transport action, condition of the meters and lamps. Ask them when was the last time it was aligned and calibrated. Beware of the seller who has the unit but cannot test it. Do not buy one from someone who does not/has not used a tape machine before. If they say they have no way of testing it, steer clear unless they offer a return policy that includes DOA, or other problems. It's best to buy one of these from an individual who has moved to digital, or has quit the hobby and wants to get it out of the way. Even a pristine looking machine that looks as though it just rolled out of TASCAM QC can be fried inside. Just because the meter lamps light doesn't mean there isn't something wrong. Insist on a take-up reel and a reel of tape. Even if it's used. I did and got a brand new reel of 456.

I don't want to scare you off. There are a lot of these old workhorses still doing major duty at a lot of analog project studios. Hey, the B-52 is almost 50 years old, and it's still being used. Why not a 15 year old tape deck? Most are in good to excellent condition and have several years of life left in them. Parts can be found and they are not that hard to work on if you ever have to. Mine's been running smoothly since July and gets a workout every weekend or so.

If you do decide to move up in the future I would not get anything less than an eight track machine. The sound is fat on a 1/2" four track granted, but those four tape tracks go just as fast on a 1/2" machine as they do on a Porta. Think about what you may want to record in the future even if you're just playing the guitar and singing at this point.

When you do move up, your eyes will bug out and your jaw will drop to the floor the first time you hear your first recording played back. You won't believe the difference.

Once again thanks for the great advice ... and this is truly great stuff your saying.

Take care,

Daniel