setup for multitrack live-recording

  • Thread starter Thread starter sniixer
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i just came back from vacation, and its good to see so many replies. Buying a computer for recording would probably be abit cheaper (because I currently dont have a DAW), and it wouldnt be much more weightier to carry around. I see the point that a HD-computer is still a computer, so why not buy a real computer? But I dont like the idea of carrying a computer to a gig, if I loose it then I`ll lose many important files, and it will be much work to put the computer into a rack every time I leave the house. It seems more tempting to buy a hd-recorder that sits permanently into a rack, and a computer that never leaves the house.
 
boingoman said:
Both systems have advantages and disadvantages. All pretty much comes down to what works for you.
Click to expand...

I agree. It works for me. I leave the DAW in the rack all the time. I am not afraid to tote it to the clubs now and then. If some of you feel differently about that, that's cool. To each his own.
 
many good arguments here, the Alesis seems easier to operate for a newbie like me, but right now I cant afford it.. but sooner or later I will. First I will buy a computer, and maybe keep the Fostex vf a little bit longer.

Rawdepth, where do you find rack-mountable computer, and what kind of specifications does it need to be able to record 24 tracks? Currently I only own Adobe Audition, will this be sufficient for recording and editing?
thanks for everybodys input, i am learning a lot from this site.
Sniixer
 
Turning inserts to direct outs

Sorry to get off the track, but I'm new here and haven't figured out how to start a new thread..

I'm also trying to set up for live recording with 8 tracks, and I'd greatly appreciate it if you could tell me how to make the PA mixer's inserts into direct outs.

Thanks much!
 
Keep This Thread Going

Sorry, everybody, I didn't mean to kill this discussion. This was something that had been on my mind, and when I saw Boingoman's post about the inserts I jumped on it -- plus I haven't figured out how to post a new message.

So ignore what I said, please, and keep this going...
 
Jmbu said:
I'm also trying to set up for live recording with 8 tracks, and I'd greatly appreciate it if you could tell me how to make the PA mixer's inserts into direct outs.

Thanks much!
Click to expand...

http://www.ampfea.org/pipermail/dspfact-list/2002-May/006301.html

I know Hosa make some modified cables that can be used:
http://www.hosatech.com/hosa/products/DOC-106.html

THe way i understand it, these are short adapters with a female-end where you can plug a "normal" phono-cable. This seems to be an easy way of recording concerts.. You can buy an Alesis hd24 (or XR) with 24 Hosa-inserts and 24 phono-cables, and then it might not be necessesary to bring a preamp/converter like the Presonus Digimax, Behringer ADA800 etc. Or would it be necessary to trim the signal from the PA-mixer before it is recorded?
 
sniixer said:
http://www.ampfea.org/pipermail/dspfact-list/2002-May/006301.html

I know Hosa make some modified cables that can be used:
http://www.hosatech.com/hosa/products/DOC-106.html

THe way i understand it, these are short adapters with a female-end where you can plug a "normal" phono-cable. This seems to be an easy way of recording concerts.. You can buy an Alesis hd24 (or XR) with 24 Hosa-inserts and 24 phono-cables, and then it might not be necessesary to bring a preamp/converter like the Presonus Digimax, Behringer ADA800 etc. Or would it be necessary to trim the signal from the PA-mixer before it is recorded?
Click to expand...
Most live recorded events have three mixers (house board, monitor board and recording board)... I connect my recording mixer between the mics and monitor mixer with Whirlwind SB24T11G splitters and sake to the remote recording truck and etc.

http://www.whirlwindusa.com/split.html

http://www.whirlwindusa.com/tech06split.html

PS... I don't like Hosa cables... they're cheap cables and break easy.
 
Last edited:
Got it -- thanks!

Thanks Sniixer and DJL. FYI, this is for small gigs with one board, and I'm playing, so I want to just set up a DA38 and let it run. I realize the results won't be great, but I'm hoping to get enough to make a decent mix afterward.

Again, my apologies if I slowed this thread down! I've been reading and learning from this forum for a while -- thanks to you all.
 
You're welcome. Oh and you will be better off if you have separate level control for the recorder... if you don't want to buy another mixer, maybe use pre fader aux sends if you have enough. Anyway, good luck and have fun. :)
 
sniixer said:
Rawdepth, where do you find rack-mountable computer, and what kind of specifications does it need to be able to record 24 tracks? Currently I only own Adobe Audition, will this be sufficient for recording and editing?
Click to expand...

I just ordered one of the standard rack mount PC cases from Eramax or something like that. There is nothing unique about it except its shape. These cases are sold all over Ebay too. Of course I removed the included power supply and threw it away. I replaced it with a one that is stable and rated correctly for wattage. As I said earlier, I chose computer components that are all standard however; I did my homework by reading lots of reviews and performance hardware magazines. I tried to determine which brands were the best quality and most reliable.

It is a 3.2GHz processor with one Gig of low heat memory. I have two hard drives. One small to boot up with and one large to record audio to. I use Adobe Audition for everything too and love it. The only thing that is not everyday typical hardware is the sound card. I use the RME HDSP9652. It has quite impressive specs with zero latency and zero CPU load. It has enough inputs to accommodate all of my preamps using ADAT lightpipe. It also provides me with many other types of interfacing for when I get a wild hair and start swapping hardware all around at home.

I wanted a front end rack that can deal with almost any input scenario. Sixteen of my pre’s have XLR and TRS inputs, simultaneous digital and analog outputs, (also in XLR or TRS,) insert points to control dynamics, phantom, and phase. The other eight pre’s just have digital outs to the sound card but can work in reverse to convert digital back to analog.

All in all, I have the option to record using inserts off of the house mixer, or using my straight through paralleled XLR lines to feed a house snake, or using a splitter snake to feed my (future) remote recording truck. (I am just renting trucks for now because I am poor and it works in a pinch.) I can also feed my other analog gear with the preamp XLR outs. I purchased an isolated splitter snake because I prefer to get outside of the club while doing on-the-fly mixes with my analog recording gear. (Just try mixing under the headphones once with a loud rock band blaring in the same room.)

I am just starting out too but, I am adding gear as I go. I am really happy with most of it although, I still have a few issues to work out. Remote recording is not as easy as it looks. I am DEFINITELY happy with the computer and soundcard though.

I suppose I could have made use of an HD recorder like the Alesis. I just wanted more interfacing options and such.

Here is a pic of the rack. http://home.earthlink.net/~rawdepth/rackpic.jpg

Cheers!
 
questions about hd24

Thanks for the info, Rawdepth, you seem to have a solid setup.

I have 2 questions about the Alesis hd24: If you choose to use the Digitial inputs from ADAT-converters, then you cant use the analog outputs?
(My plan was to use external adat-converters with the hd24. I need analog outputs to monitor what I am recording, and I thought I could always use the analog outputs on the HD. Hovewer, there are analog outputs on the adat-preamps I own. So I could use those.)

My second question has to do with syncronization: If you use 24 Adat-inputs with the HD24, do you need an external wordclock? I read on this forum that some people used high-quality wordclocks with the hd24, but im not sure if they had to do this.

I'm very tempted by the hd24, and might buy one soon.
Sniixer
 
I would second (third, fifth) the HD24 system. I use the HD24 with the Behringer ADA8000 pre's/converters and love it. You really don't want to spend time at the show eq'ing, comp'ing anyway. I watch the meters on the HD24 for signal strength (as well as the clip lights on the behringers). I have in the past brought along my Yamaha O1V and used the analog outputs to monitor realtime...works just fine. In fact I have used the analog outs to drive a monitor rig for a vocalist I recorded during the recording! I do not use an external workclock, just connect the ADA8000 synch to the HD24. It's nice to carry only a 6 space rack to the gig....
 
Anyone ever thought of a laptop and a firewire hard drive? Just because you want to use a computer, doesn't mean it has to be a full 3U rack case loaded with huge hard drives, then monitors (i use dual screens, highly reccommend it), keyboard, mouse, etc...

If you're gonna spend $2500 - $5000 on 16-24track recording gear, why not get a 17" Powerbook, a couple of firewire ADAT interfaces, and a huge firewire external hard drive? Hell, i've seen ads for those firewire rack drives... $1k there gets you god only knows how much space (they take up to 6 drives i think?), all links up by firewire. And it's hot swappable, so if one drive fills up, pop it out and put in another without dropping a beat (You have to be recording to another drive in the chain, but still).

What kind of group is it you'll be recording, sniixer? Or are you planning to contract yourself out to anyone willing to pay?
 
Hey, thanks for your interest. As for what I'll record, I hope that I will get enough work to justify the investment. (and its a good question to ask myself, because when I surf the net for a lot of gear which is (usually) a bit too expensive, I tend to forget this fundamental question)
As for genres, my primary interest has been jazz, and I mostly know jazz-musicians, so I do think much of the recordings will be jazz.. Jazz also has a long history with live-recordings, and many musicians feel that their they get an energy on stage that they dont get in the studio. (there are even labels dedicated to live-music only, like the swedish Ayler Records.)
The most important jobs, I think, will be festivals. Because here are a lot of unique concerts that someone want to be on tape. And with a lot of gear it is very practical to record many concerts at one festival. i dont know if there is any money in this, but if the recording is good, it might be possible to sell it to the national radio-broadcasting. The Norwegian national radio-broadcasting (NRK) do have their own recording truck that they use to record concerts, but they dont have the capacity to get to every important concert..
I'll also be interested in local bands who wants a good demo-CD, and maybe someone even wants to make a live-CD. I'm also thinking that some bands sometimes like to move out of the studio to record, but this probably applies to smaller genres like contemporary music. Like, there are musicians who prefer to record in churches.
I hope there is room for another live-recording rig, and from what I have seen there is, because there are a lot of unique concerts that never gets on tape.

About the computer vs. hd-recorder debate, I have been shifting back and forth in my opinion.. I think in 2005 the computer-technology has gone so far that it is possble to find a computer that can record 24 tracks without a problem, and the price for this is not astronomic. But apart from the monitor-situation, the HD24 seems very convinient. A good thing is that I can take the recording out of HD24 and put it in a computer, with the Firewire-drive. This means that I can let the recording-rig stay at a safe place near the concert-venue, while I'm home editing.
But the only good way to monitor what I'm recording, is through a digital mixer like Behringer DDX3216 w/Adat-card. And this is a bit too heavy and expensive, and I've even heard that the DDX3216 makes some noise.. I have searched extensively after cheap 24 channel line-mixers that can fit in a rack, but these seem impossible to find. (what bothers me is that I know it is possible to make such a product: 24 channel line-mxer/summing bus in 3 rack spaces, no EQ, AUX etc, just trim-pot and panning for every channel, and 2 channels out)
There are some 16-channel line-mixers in one rack-space, but then I have to listen to 2 channels at one time.. But stereo-line mixers seems to be the easiest option, like Rolls RM203X, or Behringer EURORACK PRO RX1602. In fact, I think two of these will be sufficient for monitoring, because all I need is to check one channel at once, to check the recording level and cable-noise. With 2 line-mixers I have a 8RU rig to record 24 tracks, which is not too bad.
Regards, Sniixer
 
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