Seriously... I don't get it........

  • Thread starter Thread starter Blue Bear Sound
  • Start date Start date
Some of us have our little deadlines and no budget from our clients to give to a mastering engineer.

Sometime when its my baby thats getting waxed sure Ill pony up the dough. But till then Its getting done at home.
 
Bruce,

I cant believe you opened up this can of worms......

If its a do-it-yourself home project not for commercail release, its fine to wear all the hats (artist,mixer,masterer).....

If its a commercial product, it is perfectly common and acceptable to have someone different for each step (recording engineer, producer, mixing engineer,mastering engineer)....sometimes one person can do it all...most accept the fact that some people specialize in certain areas and can do the best job....


"I think most people realize that even professional mastering won't solve serious problems with a mix, and even if they're in love with their own stuff they can probably recognize that either the mix or the material isn't worth a couple hundred dollars in mastering. At this point, the logical question is what can be done (for free) in the secure confines of my own hard drive to spruce this up a bit? "...DOLEMITE

very good question....the problem with DIY is that they dont think logically, or just generally have a lack of experience (like me)....they just dont realize exactly what can be done in the recording and mixing stage to make it better, and that mastering WONT fix certain issues......

I think the best thing to happen for that type of person is to hear a rough mix (just basic panning and level, no eq or effects) of a song that was well tracked.....it will blow their completed project (and mine) out of the water.....but at least they'll learn (as I already have) that most of their problems lie in their inadequate tracking skills, and they can go to work on that, looking at their previous steps (tracking,mixing) instead of looking a step ahead (mastering)......
 
Well... I brought this "can of worms" up because it was bugging the crap outta me that many people have no clue about the mastering process and were simply dismissing it as unnecessary or easily done with the latest plugin. At least now this brings back a certain awareness of the art and skill the mastering process requires.

The other reason I brought this up was that there wasn't any controversy happening on this board lately and I wanted to generate some "excitement"! ;) :D

:) :)

Bruce
 
You're right Bruce, somebody had to do it....but not only the art and skill of the mastering process, the tracking and mixing also....all these guys think that they can sit at home with their Delta sound card, N-tracks, C1 microphone, and make tracks that will rival a commercial studio.....Dont get me wrong, Ive heard some fine work done like this, but it was more the person operation the equipment, not the equipment.....

and after all this, next week someone will post "what plugin can I use to master my project?...Im using Goldwave and I just cant get it to be as Loud as Tool's CD.....

and some guy that cant even tune a drum will ask how to get that Bonham drum sound.....

or a guy with a $149 Squier Affinity Strat will wonder why his guitar doesnt stay in tune and his guitar tracks seem to sound out of tune when he plays up the next.....

or somebody plgging their mic into the mic in of their Soundblaster Live will wonder why no matter how far they raise the volume, their tracks arent loud enough.....

or some lady will post that a guy in a blue bear costume with womens lingere on keeps peeking in their window.....

next time just open up a can of Spam.....
 
:D

What Bruce raised here is the kind of topic that will always work, and always stir things up here. First he hit an easy to hit nail right on its easy to hit head - some inexperienced homers are really unrealistic (wait a minute - is it possible to be 'really' unrealistic?) thinking they can master their own stuff. Next he did our little world here a favor by trashing the expensive Finalizer as a sucker machine. But then he did that thing that almost all engineers do, and which almost no engineer can ever resist here - he applied engineer standards to home recording. It happens time and again - an engineer will say something that's true for an engineer, and which no other engineer would disagree with, and then there's this chorus from the cheap seats of: "Nooooo, dude, this is *HOME* recording!" LOL

I'm reading two books right now, and they balance each other out: "The Mixing Engineers' Handbook" by Bobby Owsinski and the other is "Tape Op - the Book about Creative Music Recording" edited by Larry Crane. The first one's a quality book by and for engineers which I'm learning from. The second one's a quality book by and for homers which I'm learning from.
 
Bruce, Great topic. I am excited reading so many points of view from so many people, and all at once, all the POV seem t work on the various levels that they are meant for.

Bob katz is fanatical about tone and sound, so you cant wear a hat in his mastering session. THis only points to one thing. THe accuracy of the system/environment. This kind of environment is what many DIYS/small recording studios can only dream about hence the need for mastering.

I also like the point of view that the beginning stages are the most important. Should be a moot point(whatever moot means) but it also boils down to inexperience and to an equal extent the resolution of the listening environment/speakers. I dont think that anyone would disagree that if you put a homereccer with at least some experience in a LEDE room with $50,000 speakers and $10,000 amp,that he will be able to get some things right in the tracking stage. and if you put bob katz on a pair of radio shacks for the first time, the tone will be utter crap.

But then I agree with the people who dismiss mastering as unnecessary. I Can post links to mixed songs that rival some of the best mastered songs.

I would say, in conclusion, that mastering is necessary simply because there is a different set of equipment needed,as sjoko2 said. This equipment is out of reach of most people ,even some of the best mixers.
 
This probably isn't the best place to be posting this, but........has anyone used this yet? It's brand new and it sure looks like it's pretty good and is alot cheaper than a 2500 Finalizer. And for $200 it's not like your throwing away your life savings to try to master (or screw up ;)) your own projects. It at least has to be better than the Cool Edit 2000 I was thinking about getting. :)

And this guy from AudioForums seemed to like it.....even better than Waves. :eek:

(The AudioForums page doesn't have an address for each post/thread (it only takes you to the homepage) otherwise I wouldhave just posted a link)

Originally posted by trock
I've watched the discussions on whether T-Racks or Waves is better (I have both and like them both) and have had to bite my tongue because I was on the beta of a new mastering software that takes mastering to a whole new level of capability and quality but I wasn't allowed to say anything. But now it's released so I can open my mouth : )It's Ozone by Izotope (the folks who brought you the great Vinyl plug-in) and you can check it out at
http://www.izotope.com/products/ozone/ozone.html

It's a completely integrated 64-bit system that includes a multiband parametric EQ (that is the best sounding software EQ that I have ever heard), four bands of multiband dynamics providing natural-sounding compression, expansion, and limiting, 4 band harmonic excitation based on analog tube saturation models, a reverb, a loudness maximizer, stereo imaging and widening, snapshots, a spectral analyser and other great visual feedback tools and much more. It has a great interface but it's the sound quality that sets it apart. There's a downloadable demo at the Izotope site. I highly recommend checking it out - and no, I don't work for Izotope - I'm just in love with Ozone : )

Tony
Click to expand...
-tkr
 
C.J..Great tracking, mixing on a single song by its self might stand.
Its when you have a group of songs that mastering becomes extremly important IMHO.To give the listener a cohesive dynamic listening experience thats what you are shooting for.Kinda like a great set list but without a live audience...tension and release.In my opinion a great mix doesn't need every tool in the box...Its got a lot to do with your ears , your intuitive senses and the ability to look at the large picture along with the tecnical aspects.Those are some of the things that a good masterer is paid for beside the obvious gear.Hey its home recording and its all good...but we all try to do the best we can! Who knows maybe in time you will speicalize and become a mastering engineer!I can hear you now.. you guys gotta stop straping that "finaliser" across your mixes your killing the dynamics!


Don
 
While I think I speak for all of us when I say that we GREATLY appreciate the presence of the pro's on this BBS who are so generous with their time and their knowledge, I think y'all need to remember that this is not the place for:

1. Gear snobbery

- OR -

2. Skill snobbery

Because in general, we Ho'wreckers:

1. Don't got shit

- AND -

2. Can't do shit with it

;)

However, I think on the other side of the table, we amateurs must not expect to get pro quality results. We are all united by the common goal of making and recording good music, but it sometimes helps to remember where everybody's coming from.
 
My intent was neither gear nor skill snobbery... just simply one of clarification.

Bruce
 
Dolemite...I hope that I didn't come off as snobby it was not my intention at all..I was just trying to give the otherside of the coin.
Sorry if I went to far.As far as being a Pro I'm not in any of the engineering aspects..as a player Ive had a lot of exp.in studio and production 20 years ago was my first time in a first class studio {Long Veiw Farms} So I've picked up some things along the way...And I just wanted to share what little I've picked up along the way..


Don
 
Hey guys...I wasn't accusing anyone of snobbery, I just think we should all put things in perspective. We all come at this from different angles and that seems to cause some issues so I think understanding each others' "angles" is important. And, yes I do think this is one point that needed clarification for some of the newbies (and probably some of the not-so-new-bies) so thanks Bruce.

;)
 
Cyan - you're quoting Sjoko out of context to support your opinion. Naughty, naughty :D. Sjoko said that great gear was only one of four ingredients in mastering, and not the most important one, either.

You say mastering isn't necessary, and I agree that sometimes that's true, especially if you're happy with demo level recordings. You say that it's mostly a matter of special gear, and I think you're making a mistake there. Pro mastering guys use great gear BECAUSE IT'S ACCESSIBLE TO THEM. However, what makes mastering mastering is objective, experienced ears. It's a skill, not a box.

I went to the ozone isotope site, and I had a couple laughs at the joke they posted there:

"iZotope Ozone will not correct out of time drummers, out of tune singers, or really bad lyrics. At the same time, these things have not prohibited people from winning Grammys."

The first laugh was because it's true. The second laugh was because they're covering themselves against the loads of people who will buy their software (I think it looks pretty cool, and I'm interested, for instance) and then wonder why their 'mastered' material doesn't sound all that much better. LOL

I'm not having my stuff mastered unless it reaches the point where I get serious about selling it.

But here's a question that'll keep this thread ticking over a while longer: you've got a certain amount of faith in the feedback you get in the mp3 clinic here. Let's say for the sake of argument that mastering requires a different set of ears. How about an experiment? You ask one or more homers here who you trust to 'master' one of your tunes, and they post the results in the clinic along with your own mastering of it. Emeric and Miller are good. Ray J and Teddie are good. You're coming up with interesting sound these days, and Tubedude as well. You up for a bit of scientific method?
 
dobro...I think a "tangent" of your suggested experiment has already started in the Sonic Foundry folder.....check it out.
 
Henri Devill.....

Hey...I too had the fortunate experience to record at Long View Farms about 20 years ago myself. It was at that facility that brought me to the belief that acoustical treatments, etc., could potentially be for naught. We recorded a lot of the tracks in the "barn"....not to mention the piano in their "living room." But it was those tracks recorded in the barn, with the windows and doors wide open to the outside, with the birds, wind noise, etc., never making it to the multitrack. Yeah...things were usually closed mic'd...but the *casualness* of the sonic treatments had forever altered my thinking. Oh yeah....I personally thought the tracks came out sounding kick-ass and as top notched as anything sonically at the time. [to name drop], J. Geils had just been there, right after the Stones, and Pat Metheny was supposedly booked after we were. Jessi Henderson was our engineer at the time..and I still see he works there....or at least, I believe I saw his name on the last Creed album, in which some stuff was done there also. The album I was on went straight to the cutout bin, however....(Head East...USA 1)
 
Mixmkr...That was the same time I was there,also in the barn!I not sure that Henderson was the engineer though.. might have been that was along time ago!The project I was doing at the time was a demo.We were playing around Boston alot back then were you also?The band was The 45s.Long Veiw had a great vibe.
I really dug the sound of the tracks there also.We must have been there within a week or three of each other.I remember the other guit. player in my band asking did Keith sit here did Keith thouch this..LOL...it was cool we were like 20/22 at the time.And was it Freeze Frame that J.Geils was finishing there?Small world
On the cut out well at least yours so the light of day..LOL

Don
 
dobro said:


You say mastering isn't necessary, and I agree that sometimes that's true, especially if you're happy with demo level recordings. You say that it's mostly a matter of special gear, and I think you're making a mistake there. Pro mastering guys use great gear BECAUSE IT'S ACCESSIBLE TO THEM. However, what makes mastering mastering is objective, experienced ears. It's a skill, not a box.

but here's a question that'll keep this thread ticking over a while longer: you've got a certain amount of faith in the feedback you get in the mp3 clinic here. Let's say for the sake of argument that mastering requires a different set of ears. How about an experiment? You ask one or more homers here who you trust to 'master' one of your tunes, and they post the results in the clinic along with your own mastering of it. Emeric and Miller are good. Ray J and Teddie are good. You're coming up with interesting sound these days, and Tubedude as well. You up for a bit of scientific method?
Click to expand...

hey dobro,

after henri's last post, I began to realize why mastering is so important-on the record level, because you want the cd to sound cohesive. THis is very true. I have heard mixing engineers turn out two great mixes that sound nothing alike. If those mixes are going on the same album, you want a mastering engineer to bring the cohesiveness into it.

As for your observation that ". Pro mastering guys use great gear BECAUSE IT'S ACCESSIBLE TO THEM. However, what makes mastering mastering is objective, experienced ears. It's a skill, not a box."

I agree to an extent, but disagree to an extent. It is a skill, definitely not a box, but then againthey don't use great gear cause its accessible, they use great gear because it is a must have, cant do without thing. I have read of situation where the mastering engineer raised the house subwoofer off the ground with four pieces of cardboard, merely rasing it a centimeter, just to have accuracy. A mastering engineer cannot master with event 20/20s or ns10ms.

I totally believe that mastering requires a different set of speakers and maybe another(not necesarrily different) set of ears, so I will be willing to let my mix get mastered by somebody on this board(also because I trust my homers first impressions).
Emeric, jrlemonz,Ray J, misterqcue, bezeelbubba, gonzo-x are just some of the names that I will gladly give my mixes to to master. (It might take some time though, the muses are not musing right now)

SO do you agree with me now that the most important things in mastering are equipment, good trained ears,and speakers/LEDE :D

Which arouses the question. How does one get trained ears. Is it by listening to thousands of great mixes on an $xxxthousands system? how does one exactly become a trained ear for mastering.
 
C.J...You could intern at a mastering facility near you !


Don
 
Excellent!Gotta print that out and read it front to back..

Don
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top