Separation Mastering?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mattierocks
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masteringhouse said:
If one has a Pro Tools session with stems, and inserts an SSL (or whatever) compressor on the master bus during mastering, how is this different than doing it while mixing?
Few mixers (that I'm aware of) strap a compressor across the buss at the end of the mix - they do so early on and mix to it. So unless you're talking about plug-in compressors (which few mastering houses use), the mixer would have to send his hardware unit along with notes to replicate the buss compression...
 
bblackwood said:
Few mixers (that I'm aware of) strap a compressor across the buss at the end of the mix - they do so early on and mix to it. So unless you're talking about plug-in compressors (which few mastering houses use), the mixer would have to send his hardware unit along with notes to replicate the buss compression...

Not talking about plug-in compressors, one can insert a hardware comp just as easily as a plug-in in PT. Yes, it's going through another D/A conversion, but very likely it's going to anyway.

There's also no reason why the engineer can't mix this way and send the group outputs to create the stems sans compression along with the stereo mix for comparison. If the ME has an SSL comp. (or most likely one that's even better), the ratios/attack/etc. should be able to be reproduced without a major problem.
 
masteringhouse said:
There's also no reason why the engineer can't mix this way and send the group outputs to create the stems sans compression along with the stereo mix for comparison. If the ME has an SSL comp. (or most likely one that's even better), the ratios/attack/etc. should be able to be reproduced without a major problem.
Come on, Tom - you know better than that. Recalls are difficult using the SAME GEAR, much less a different compressor of the same model.

And I'm not even going to touch the comment about using a diff comp with similar settings...

I guess once again we'll agree to disagree - I think the points speak for themselves. I'll leave you with this - if a mixer can't mix where they don't need the mastering engineer to finish it, perhaps they're not ready to be mixers...
 
bblackwood said:
Come on, Tom - you know better than that. Recalls are difficult using the SAME GEAR, much less a different compressor of the same model.

And I'm not even going to touch the comment about using a diff comp with similar settings...

Sure, I should have qualified as "reasonably reproduced". But the intent of mastering with stems is to improve upon, not duplicate exactly otherwise there is no point in going through the extra hoops. When doing an up/down mix the stereo bus compression would likely change anyway.

bblackwood said:
I'll leave you with this - if a mixer can't mix where they don't need the mastering engineer to finish it, perhaps they're not ready to be mixers...

We agree, though I will add that the "perfect mix" is in the ear of the beholder and can change. Clients do change their minds after living with a mix for a while, and environmental differences between the studio and mastering environment reveal different aspects about a mix that can totally change your perspective. Where the bass or vocals seem just right in one they may be overbearing in another. Where would you like the final decision to be made, before committing to the final phase of production or having one last chance to make corrections during?

Brad we don't really disagree much on this, in the hands of a great mix engineer mixing is a performance that shouldn't be tampered with much like the conductor of a great orchestra. In a home recording forum, well ...
 
99% of the time I think a stereo mix to be mastered as normal will yield superb results. Stem mastering will not pull much else out of the mix.

However I have ran across bands that want loud clicky bass drums (at the same time as really loud guitars), and the best way I found to keep the clicks in is by steming the bass drum track.
On a stereo mix the multiband will engage smushing the bass drum click when the the guitar or cymbals come in since they are in the same frequency range as the bass drum clicks. So what would happen is during the quiet parts of the song, there would be a lot of definition and click to the bass drum, but when it got loud and everything comes in, the bass drum click gets buried.
But with a stemed bass drum, the click stays very pronounced.

The dynamics signal chain will be something along these lines:

Stereo mix (minus bassdrum) into a multiband compressor (no limiter, or only a small amount).
Bass drum into a multiband compressor (no limiter, or only a small amount).
Mix the compressed Stereo mix and bassdrum together and apply some limiting to keep everything in check.

Yes that does indeed require a bit of mixing in the mastering house. But it's probably the most powerful way to get super loud click bassdrums. Not that I prefer the bassdrum to be so loud, but some people do.
 
This is perfect. Thank you guys for all this info! It's awesome to hear from some of the pros we have here. Much appreciated!
 
Wow...possibly the most informative thread yet. Both sides have very clear and cogent reasons for their stance, I just hope I can get my brain around the info and hold on to it till I can get to the basement and fire up the Yamahahaha. One point that seemed to make good sense to me was keeping the reverb and other efx free from unwanted signal, like no drum tails on the guitar/strings/vox etc. On the other hand, it could just present me with another excuse for not calling a song "finished" At any rate, I/m gonna mess with it and see/hear what happens. I've got tons of virtual tracks to bounce to.
Thanks to all the pro's for your comments and I hope this thread will continue and thrive.


chazba
 
Seperation Mastering - Way to Go!!!

I'm using Seperation Mastering on my tracks.. i mix it myself and master it myself..and i like it, outbeats traditional mastering straight on!
I don't think Seperation Mastering is asking the ME to mix the tracks again, it may seem like mixing, but it's not really that..but honestly, i'm not to sure whether my method is considered Seperation Mastering, cos i cooked it up myself, but it works..
When you send to the ME tracks in groups..eg.. Track 1: Drums/Bass, Track 2: Rhythm Guitars, Track 3: Vocals, Track 4: Strings..
From there, the ME will send each track into the Analog Compressor, A/D, basically professional equipment, in order to give the good analog stereo sound.. which digital softwares cannot give.
One may argue that they can just send the whole mix into the same gear and get the same effect, but that isn't the point.
When you send an entire mixdown into a compressor, be it a multiband compressor, you become limited that all elements of sound that falls with a certain range of frequency would have to be compressed according to the atk/rel/thres/decay settings that you would set in the compressor.
What if a string that gives a low humming sound falls within the same freq as you kick drum, in which your kick requires a short atk/rel setting, while doing that actually degrades that string sound, giving breathing or pumping, that sounds awful in your final product.
The limitation that comes from traditional mastering methods works out that you will not be able to control that.
Moreover, you won't have the options to not compress certain sounds if you do not wish to, cos everything has to pass into the multiband compressor. Yes, you may argue that you can choose certain freq ranges not to be compressed, but what if 2 elements fall within that range, and one you want compressed, the other not at all??
The problem i had with seperation mastering is the inability to sync all the mastered stems together, which i countered it by placing 4 clicks on the front of my mixes and syncing them zooming in on the tracks after mastering, and cutting away the 4 clicks after that.
Of cos, that issue could be fully solved if i had the big $$ to purchase a hardware DAW, import my mixdown subgrp tracks into the DAW harddisk, sub out eack track into seperate compressors etc, and put them back into my PC DAW.. that will be a huge cost of 5 analog compressors, 5 analog reverbs, 1 analog DAW (i think my present countermeasure works for me for now).
Seperation mastering requires more time and effort, and after i put them all together again, i mixdown as usual as the final master.
Some extra layer touch ups i will work on on this final mastering workfile, including volume changes modified by the compressors which may not meet up to my own likings, as it is, i have more control over mastering this way. If i don't feel that the sound is thick enough, i add some more layers to thicken the sounds.
What i will not do is to apply any digital software plugins on these mastered tracks, except for adding reverb, since i feel that digital softwares actually degrades the analog sounds the most.. i don't want the digital sound coming back in again.
I'm satisfied currently with my seperation mastering results as i find there's a clearer seperation in my mastered tracks, and yet they sound loud and analog enough, but i'm always yearning to improve and enhance with time. I've new ideas to improving the methods even now. It's extra effort, but it's worth it!!! Esp when you are doing the mastering urself!
My greatest regression is my lag of high end gear....:(
 
Parablue,
That seems like mixing then faux mastering to me.
Everything that can be fixed is fixed in the tracks then it's mixed then it's mastered.
What you've described sounds like the "fix it in the mix" mindset. I wonder if you've read much of the thread before posting your radical new method?
The plusses are that you've listened & thought about how you mix and tried to address conflicts.
It's probably just a case of misnamed processes rather than anything else.
Oh, big bucks really won't make things that much better. It's still a case of the tradesman & his tools.
 
As time goes on, I am becoming more accepting of stem or separation mastering.

As home recording has become a huge force, it seems that people are learning to create music and record it faster than they are learning to mix it properly. Having stems to work with in these cases sometimes will result in a better sounding final product than dealing with sub par mixes.
 
As time goes on, I am becoming more accepting of stem or separation mastering.

As home recording has become a huge force, it seems that people are learning to create music and record it faster than they are learning to mix it properly. Having stems to work with in these cases sometimes will result in a better sounding final product than dealing with sub par mixes.

Personally never really ever had issues with stems, they just should be used when the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

I understand the points being made by the above post, but feel that it may be overcomplicating the process.
 
Personally never really ever had issues with stems, they just should be used when the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. .
I mentioned this as well because in the last two weeks I had a couple mastering projects where the clients asked me if they should bring their laptop in... just in case...

In both cases it was so much easier to pull up the songs and make a couple adjustments, bounce and then master.

Looking at some of the eq curves they were using was a bit of an eye opener into what some of the home recordists sometimes resort to. In both cases the songs and recordings were done very well...the mixing just needed a little touch up and tweeks that did make a world of difference.

I also get things that are mixed very very well, but believe in this day and age you have to be ready to deal with anything.
 
Quite true Tom.

Due in large part to forums like this clients are hip to options that they didn't know about before. I have a client this week (unnattended) who was having some issues with the vocals in his mix. HE suggested stems without me even bringing it up and it made a very positive difference in the final master.

Of course along with all of the good information learned in forums there is an equal amount of bad info. learned.
 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

G.
 
Did we wake a sleeping giant?

I know, "fix it in the mastering" is a bad philosophy, and I generally agree. Sometimes though it's better than 10 mix revisions.
 
Of course along with all of the good information learned in forums there is an equal amount of bad info. learned.

I think the end quality for some of these home brew projects sometimes equal and surpass what I used to hear coming out of very high end studios not to long ago. I guess it's good and bad for the recording industry. Change happens.
 
10 mix revisions would not be required if they took it to a mix engineer.

G.
 
10 mix revisions would not be required if they took it to a mix engineer.

G.

A good mix engineer, no argument.

I'm very tempted to start an organization called "The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Music". It will address abuses in recording, mixing, and especially mastering.
 
A good mix engineer, no argument
Actually, I'd like to correct/refine myself. What's really missing in the equation is a qualified producer that can manage the production all the way through from the song arrangement to the mastering. They will help eliminate the need for multiple passes at either mixing or mastering.

They also can help mitigate the quality of the engineer at each level, where many of the negatives are because everyone who touches the mix either has their own production vision, or has none at all.

The problem is that so many newbs and DIYers these days just think that songs just produce themselves, and by the time they get to mastering, it's too late.

Something I've been curious about for a long time, is why you *real* mastering guys (e.g. John, his brother Tom, and his other brother Tom ;)) have selected mastering as your specialty? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but we sure could use guys like you earlier in the process.

G.
 
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