AudioVault
New member
Do you think it is worth 8 grand to sell my Ghost and buy an Otari Concet or to just invest that 8 grand into more outboard and mics? im running a prottols 002 rig with focusrite converters, pres and api.
Sell my Soundcraft Ghost for Otari Concept?
- Thread starter AudioVault
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AudioVault
New member
well the Otari was a 40 chaeel but i really am fine with 32 for now. ive never used the otari so i was hoping for a little comparison to the ghost but some info on the ghost ugrades would be cool. thanks man
i just bought my second ghost in my life...it's for sure a love hate board...it works juuuuuuuust well enough to be useable...and is juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust pain in the ass enough to make you want to buy a real board. 
do a mix on a bigger board and see if it helps ya...i plan on using my ghost for a couple years so my decision was to go outboard like big ray said.
Mike
do a mix on a bigger board and see if it helps ya...i plan on using my ghost for a couple years so my decision was to go outboard like big ray said.
Mike
BigRay
New member
http://www.creationaudiolabs.com/Specialty.html#ghost
Apparently, it makes the Ghost much more useful.
Creation Audio Labs, Inc. offers the finest Ghost repair, refurbishment and modification services available. We have repaired, refurbed and modified numerous Ghost consoles. Previously employed by Soundcraft / BSS, the Creation Audio Labs techs have the greatest amount of experience relating to this console. Gary "Sarge" Gistinger has rebuilt several Ghost consoles that were deemed not repairable due to massive shipping damage, and currently uses two modified Ghosts in the studio and as a live FOH desk.
The Ghost circuitry design responds very favorably to modification with the stellar Burr-Brown IC’s. This mod is very good and the sonic improvement is extremely significant. Up-chipping the Ghost provides the biggest bang for the buck. Any other mod such as cap, transistor, and diode replacements will be very costly and only provide minimal sonic improvement. The original Ghost design is very good to begin with, and the Burr-Brown upgrade puts this desk over the top! The mic pre’s, EQ section, the outputs, B-Mix path, direct output drivers, and aux sections all gain responsiveness and clarity. This is THE mod! Everything else pales in comparison!
Creation Audio Labs can do entire consoles, master sections, or individual channels as requested. We recommend that as a minimum, the master section be done first, with the possibility of at least two input channels as well. This gives a stereo pair of "hot rodded" channels through a big time beefed up master section!
We also offer a general refurb of this console (as well as any other!) which is a complete strip down and rebuild of the desk. We address all problems, clean up things, hand re-solder pot and jack connections, etc. Please view the refurbishment / restoration section of our web page at www.creationaudiolabs.com for a walk through of this process. Any older desk will greatly benefit from this treatment, and often the life of the console will be extended out another 5 to 7 years. (You should see some of the living death consoles we have refurbed!)
Now for some Ghost particulars:
-The first thing we do is take digital photos of the desk when it comes in. A photo journal of the refurb / up-chip process is taken and placed on CD for each project. This allows the customer to "see" the before, during, and after.
-The console is then stripped all the way down. All rearcons, inputs, and master section PCB’s come out. This entails removing all knobs, pot nuts, and screws (and we mean all).
-All metal work, knobs and PCB modules are cleaned with the appropriate chemicals / solutions / high pressure air. -All rearcon jack connections and all pot connections are resoldered by hand. This insures good connection to the PCB and corrects any solder fractures which cause "crackle" and intermittent drop outs.
-All switches are cleaned and lubed.
-All pots are cleaned with very expensive chemical cleaners and HP air.
-All faders are cleaned and lubed, and the hot lead of the fader is moved and resoldered to prevent shorting to adjacent cards. Additionally any hot glue is removed and the wires are securely attached with foil tape. Ghost faders are not typically extremely smooth to begin with, but we have found a special cleaning and lube process that makes them as silky as possible. The fader mods do not effect the audio, they only improve the reliability and feel.
-All insert jacks are replaced with gold Neutrik jacks.
-After the refurb process is complete the console is reassembled and fully tested via oscilloscope waveform analysis and condenser mic "live" audio testing. All noted or found problems are corrected.
-Additionally, the power supply is QC’d and trimmed to exacting specs.
When a console comes in for "up-chipping," all of the above is accomplished along with the removal of all original IC’s and replacement with the appropriate Burr-Brown IC’s.
While the refurb and up-chipping process is not exactly "cheap," consider that the life of the console is greatly extended (with reasonable care, of course) and the sonic improvement is very significant. Many mods are touted as being great, usually at great expense. Again, the IC replacement mod is the best value for the money. Anything else follows diminishing returns pretty quickly. A majority of the cost for the refurb process is simply the man hours it takes to "rip and strip," clean, resolder, repair, rebuild, and test. (Think of it this way: count all of the knobs on your console, then think of all the solder connections under those knobs! We’re sure you get the picture!).
Refurbishment of any console over 5 years of age is highly recommended. Even in clean environments most consoles get dirty over time. Unfortunately, the majority of consoles live under rather hard conditions and the grit and grime and smoke factor is tough! (You should see a rather remarkable Soundcraft 400 ). A refurb of your console will save you money and time in many ways. First, as compared to the cost of a new desk we are not even talking! You most likely are very familiar with the console you have been using for several years, and the majority of older desks are of better physical quality then the newer ones. You know how "cheap" many of the new desks feel! You are right! Cost cutting and profit gouging has run the gambit! Secondly, a refurb / up-chip puts your console BETTER-THAN-NEW in most cases! The "wave flow" solder technology used on PCB’s is typically weak and over time the connections fracture. If you have been doing sound for some time you know the "crackle" and intermittent drop outs that can sometimes be corrected by "gassing the gain," banging on the console, or pulling on the wires. This is solder fracture! Hand soldering the 50 zillion points is the only way to make this problem go away for good. Additionally a thorough cleaning is something most desks never get. Very quickly you can see the benefits of this process. Lastly, and probably most importantly, refurb of your desk may just save your hide by preventing a gig slowing/stopping failure. Have you been so lucky to never have had a gear problem foul up a studio take or live show?
Ghost refurbishment prices / Refurb with Burr-Brown Chip replacements:
24 Channel: $2000.00 / $3133.76
32 Channel: $2600.00 / $4039.54
24 Channel Expander: $1900.00 / $2817.76
Master Section: $550.00 / $671.50
Single Channel: $85.00 / $116.50
****For information on refurbs / upchips on other consoles please call us for a quote!
Apparently, it makes the Ghost much more useful.
Creation Audio Labs, Inc. offers the finest Ghost repair, refurbishment and modification services available. We have repaired, refurbed and modified numerous Ghost consoles. Previously employed by Soundcraft / BSS, the Creation Audio Labs techs have the greatest amount of experience relating to this console. Gary "Sarge" Gistinger has rebuilt several Ghost consoles that were deemed not repairable due to massive shipping damage, and currently uses two modified Ghosts in the studio and as a live FOH desk.
The Ghost circuitry design responds very favorably to modification with the stellar Burr-Brown IC’s. This mod is very good and the sonic improvement is extremely significant. Up-chipping the Ghost provides the biggest bang for the buck. Any other mod such as cap, transistor, and diode replacements will be very costly and only provide minimal sonic improvement. The original Ghost design is very good to begin with, and the Burr-Brown upgrade puts this desk over the top! The mic pre’s, EQ section, the outputs, B-Mix path, direct output drivers, and aux sections all gain responsiveness and clarity. This is THE mod! Everything else pales in comparison!
Creation Audio Labs can do entire consoles, master sections, or individual channels as requested. We recommend that as a minimum, the master section be done first, with the possibility of at least two input channels as well. This gives a stereo pair of "hot rodded" channels through a big time beefed up master section!
We also offer a general refurb of this console (as well as any other!) which is a complete strip down and rebuild of the desk. We address all problems, clean up things, hand re-solder pot and jack connections, etc. Please view the refurbishment / restoration section of our web page at www.creationaudiolabs.com for a walk through of this process. Any older desk will greatly benefit from this treatment, and often the life of the console will be extended out another 5 to 7 years. (You should see some of the living death consoles we have refurbed!)
Now for some Ghost particulars:
-The first thing we do is take digital photos of the desk when it comes in. A photo journal of the refurb / up-chip process is taken and placed on CD for each project. This allows the customer to "see" the before, during, and after.
-The console is then stripped all the way down. All rearcons, inputs, and master section PCB’s come out. This entails removing all knobs, pot nuts, and screws (and we mean all).
-All metal work, knobs and PCB modules are cleaned with the appropriate chemicals / solutions / high pressure air. -All rearcon jack connections and all pot connections are resoldered by hand. This insures good connection to the PCB and corrects any solder fractures which cause "crackle" and intermittent drop outs.
-All switches are cleaned and lubed.
-All pots are cleaned with very expensive chemical cleaners and HP air.
-All faders are cleaned and lubed, and the hot lead of the fader is moved and resoldered to prevent shorting to adjacent cards. Additionally any hot glue is removed and the wires are securely attached with foil tape. Ghost faders are not typically extremely smooth to begin with, but we have found a special cleaning and lube process that makes them as silky as possible. The fader mods do not effect the audio, they only improve the reliability and feel.
-All insert jacks are replaced with gold Neutrik jacks.
-After the refurb process is complete the console is reassembled and fully tested via oscilloscope waveform analysis and condenser mic "live" audio testing. All noted or found problems are corrected.
-Additionally, the power supply is QC’d and trimmed to exacting specs.
When a console comes in for "up-chipping," all of the above is accomplished along with the removal of all original IC’s and replacement with the appropriate Burr-Brown IC’s.
While the refurb and up-chipping process is not exactly "cheap," consider that the life of the console is greatly extended (with reasonable care, of course) and the sonic improvement is very significant. Many mods are touted as being great, usually at great expense. Again, the IC replacement mod is the best value for the money. Anything else follows diminishing returns pretty quickly. A majority of the cost for the refurb process is simply the man hours it takes to "rip and strip," clean, resolder, repair, rebuild, and test. (Think of it this way: count all of the knobs on your console, then think of all the solder connections under those knobs! We’re sure you get the picture!).
Refurbishment of any console over 5 years of age is highly recommended. Even in clean environments most consoles get dirty over time. Unfortunately, the majority of consoles live under rather hard conditions and the grit and grime and smoke factor is tough! (You should see a rather remarkable Soundcraft 400 ). A refurb of your console will save you money and time in many ways. First, as compared to the cost of a new desk we are not even talking! You most likely are very familiar with the console you have been using for several years, and the majority of older desks are of better physical quality then the newer ones. You know how "cheap" many of the new desks feel! You are right! Cost cutting and profit gouging has run the gambit! Secondly, a refurb / up-chip puts your console BETTER-THAN-NEW in most cases! The "wave flow" solder technology used on PCB’s is typically weak and over time the connections fracture. If you have been doing sound for some time you know the "crackle" and intermittent drop outs that can sometimes be corrected by "gassing the gain," banging on the console, or pulling on the wires. This is solder fracture! Hand soldering the 50 zillion points is the only way to make this problem go away for good. Additionally a thorough cleaning is something most desks never get. Very quickly you can see the benefits of this process. Lastly, and probably most importantly, refurb of your desk may just save your hide by preventing a gig slowing/stopping failure. Have you been so lucky to never have had a gear problem foul up a studio take or live show?
Ghost refurbishment prices / Refurb with Burr-Brown Chip replacements:
24 Channel: $2000.00 / $3133.76
32 Channel: $2600.00 / $4039.54
24 Channel Expander: $1900.00 / $2817.76
Master Section: $550.00 / $671.50
Single Channel: $85.00 / $116.50
****For information on refurbs / upchips on other consoles please call us for a quote!
I have heard a couple of the modified Ghosts, and they really aren't much nicer in my opinion. It does seem to help reduce the noise of the console though. The Creation Audio Labs guys do a great job cleaning consoles though, and with some repairs
As far as the Otari Concept goes, I would say it is definately a better console than the Ghost. However, depending on how you use it, it may not add a whole lot to your wprkflow and quality level though. If you were running analog for everything (especially mixdowns) I would say yes, go for it. The Otari automation is pretty usable as well (Eagle automation if I remember right). Whether or not outboard gear would be more usable for you really depends a lot on how you plan on using the Otari and how it fits your workflow.
As far as the Otari Concept goes, I would say it is definately a better console than the Ghost. However, depending on how you use it, it may not add a whole lot to your wprkflow and quality level though. If you were running analog for everything (especially mixdowns) I would say yes, go for it. The Otari automation is pretty usable as well (Eagle automation if I remember right). Whether or not outboard gear would be more usable for you really depends a lot on how you plan on using the Otari and how it fits your workflow.
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
I've got a Ghost also and it's hard to get anything else that gives you the value for the same money. If you were mixing from tape I would say go for the Otari but nowadays it seems like outboard pre's with as much DAW control you can afford is the way to go.
In a typical DAW setup the mixer becomes little more then a glorified monitor mixer anyway.
In a typical DAW setup the mixer becomes little more then a glorified monitor mixer anyway.
sweetnubs
New member
I couldn't imagine getting 8 grand for a used ghost. I can think of a lot better used consoles you could get for the same price as a new ghost. Even the older soundcraft boards are better although you'll have to recap 'em. I believe in a typical professional DAW set-up the analog mixer acts as a mixer, not the software. I've never used an Otari board so can't vouch for 'em but you could find a decent AMEK or Neotek board in the same price range. Possibly a Trident. Maybe a old Helios board. Keep buying DAW's and control surfaces folks, the more good stuff for cheap for Nubs. It sounds like you're going for more of a professional thing so you'll definitely want to go modular with a console. Something happens and you got to ship the whole console off. I would never modify a console like a ghost, the money spent on the modifications plus the cost of the ghost could get you a much better board.
sweetnubs
New member
I couldn't imagine getting 8 grand for a used ghost. I can think of a lot better used consoles you could get for the same price as a new ghost. Even the older soundcraft boards are better although you'll have to recap 'em. I believe in a typical professional DAW set-up the analog mixer acts as a mixer, not the software. I've never used an Otari board so can't vouch for 'em but you could find a decent AMEK or Neotek board in the same price range. Possibly a Trident. Maybe a old Helios board. Keep buying DAW's and control surfaces folks, the more good stuff for cheap for Nubs. It sounds like you're going for more of a professional thing so you'll definitely want to go modular with a console. Something happens and you got to ship the whole console off. I would never modify a console like a ghost, the money spent on the modifications plus the cost of the ghost could get you a much better board.
sweetnubs
New member
I couldn't imagine getting 8 grand for a used ghost. I can think of a lot better used consoles you could get for the same price as a new ghost. Even the older soundcraft boards are better although you'll have to recap 'em. I believe in a typical professional DAW set-up the analog mixer acts as a mixer, not the software. I've never used an Otari board so can't vouch for 'em but you could find a decent AMEK or Neotek board in the same price range. Possibly a Trident. Maybe a old Helios board. Keep buying DAW's and control surfaces folks, the more good stuff for cheap for Nubs. It sounds like you're going for more of a professional thing so you'll definitely want to go modular with a console. Something happens and you got to ship the whole console off. I would never modify a console like a ghost, the money spent on the modifications plus the cost of the ghost could get you a much better board.
I don't think that the original poster was going to spend $8000 on a Ghost, or at least I hope not. As for what other consoles you can get for that money, some of the options listed above are feasible, some really aren't in my opinion.
First, the Amek's... It is important to remember that noit all Amek's are made equal and what exactly Mr. Neve has to do with each one is VERY different. Of the Amek consoles you could get for $8000, you are typically looking at either a Big or an Einstein. Personally, I would not pay more than $4000 for each one based on Sound Quality. Those two consoles are kind of the "runt" of the Amek pack. I would still say that they are a much moire serious console than a Ghost, but you are really paying for the Amek name on those two in specific. You should also be able to find some Angela's in that price range as well though. The Angela is known for being a much nicer sounding desk than both the Big and the Einstein (or the "Super E's"). It just does not have as many bells and whistles and will foten come in a larger and heavier frame. Most likely in this price range though any Angela's you find may need a few thousand dollars of work, but are probably well worth it given what you get in the end.
Now for the Trident's... In general alkl you are going to find in this price range are Fleximixes, and smaller Series 65's and maybe even smaller series 24's. Once again, all three of these will sonically whoop on a Ghost (at least in my opinion and most others who have actually used both), but once again are sort of the stepchildren of the the really famous Trident's, the "A" range, "B" range, and the series 80, 90 etc... The Fleximix does have a little more of that classic Trident sound, but in a considerably scaled down package as far as size and features go.
Helios.... Where in the hell can find a Helios console with more than 6 channels in anywhere near functioning order for anywhere close to this price? You could spend $8000 on Helios channel strips and still only get between 2 and 4 of em.
Neotek... In my opinion this is by far the most solid option in this price range. That is if you can find one in good shape that is not a series one or series two in this price range. If you can get an Elite or an Elan in decent shape for this price, I would say go for it. Where else are you can to get at least 24 channels of excellent solid sounding preamps and EQ's for this price? It certainly beats the crap (value wise that is) out of outboard in my opinion. Thats just over $300 a channel for preamps and EQ that stands up nicely next to just preamps that cost nearly $1000 a channel. This is exactly why find larger format consoles to be quite a bargain nowadays.
Some other solid consoles to consider in the sub $10k region are Harrison, DDA, D&R, and even TAC. Some of these will be older than others, some will require more maintenace than others, and some will have more or less features than others. Out of curiosity... have you considered certain digital consoles? The Sony DMX 100's (like the one that Bliue Bear has) often sell for between $5000 and $7000 now, and sometimes even less. They have a pretty solid sound, quality parts, and will even often a certain degree of integration with your DAW setup. Other good sounding options are the Yamah DM1000, and the O2R96 v2's. Both can be had used for well under $8000, and the DM1000 I believe is new for about $5000. Both can also be integrated as control surfaces for your DAW setup and in my opinion have better sounding preamps than a Ghost, and MANY more features.
First, the Amek's... It is important to remember that noit all Amek's are made equal and what exactly Mr. Neve has to do with each one is VERY different. Of the Amek consoles you could get for $8000, you are typically looking at either a Big or an Einstein. Personally, I would not pay more than $4000 for each one based on Sound Quality. Those two consoles are kind of the "runt" of the Amek pack. I would still say that they are a much moire serious console than a Ghost, but you are really paying for the Amek name on those two in specific. You should also be able to find some Angela's in that price range as well though. The Angela is known for being a much nicer sounding desk than both the Big and the Einstein (or the "Super E's"). It just does not have as many bells and whistles and will foten come in a larger and heavier frame. Most likely in this price range though any Angela's you find may need a few thousand dollars of work, but are probably well worth it given what you get in the end.
Now for the Trident's... In general alkl you are going to find in this price range are Fleximixes, and smaller Series 65's and maybe even smaller series 24's. Once again, all three of these will sonically whoop on a Ghost (at least in my opinion and most others who have actually used both), but once again are sort of the stepchildren of the the really famous Trident's, the "A" range, "B" range, and the series 80, 90 etc... The Fleximix does have a little more of that classic Trident sound, but in a considerably scaled down package as far as size and features go.
Helios.... Where in the hell can find a Helios console with more than 6 channels in anywhere near functioning order for anywhere close to this price? You could spend $8000 on Helios channel strips and still only get between 2 and 4 of em.
Neotek... In my opinion this is by far the most solid option in this price range. That is if you can find one in good shape that is not a series one or series two in this price range. If you can get an Elite or an Elan in decent shape for this price, I would say go for it. Where else are you can to get at least 24 channels of excellent solid sounding preamps and EQ's for this price? It certainly beats the crap (value wise that is) out of outboard in my opinion. Thats just over $300 a channel for preamps and EQ that stands up nicely next to just preamps that cost nearly $1000 a channel. This is exactly why find larger format consoles to be quite a bargain nowadays.
Some other solid consoles to consider in the sub $10k region are Harrison, DDA, D&R, and even TAC. Some of these will be older than others, some will require more maintenace than others, and some will have more or less features than others. Out of curiosity... have you considered certain digital consoles? The Sony DMX 100's (like the one that Bliue Bear has) often sell for between $5000 and $7000 now, and sometimes even less. They have a pretty solid sound, quality parts, and will even often a certain degree of integration with your DAW setup. Other good sounding options are the Yamah DM1000, and the O2R96 v2's. Both can be had used for well under $8000, and the DM1000 I believe is new for about $5000. Both can also be integrated as control surfaces for your DAW setup and in my opinion have better sounding preamps than a Ghost, and MANY more features.
sweetnubs
New member
Oh yeah my mistake on the Helios, I actually meant Harrison good 'ol nubs was confused by the H's. My reading of his posting was he was going to sell his ghost for 8 grand and it also implied he had about 8 grand to spend, at least that's what it sounds like to me. Of course you can't get a neve Amek and an A or B range trident for that price and I neve (get it!) suggested that but any Amek or Trident will sound better than a ghost including the Big, Angela, Einstein and maybe even a Scorpion but don't quote me on that, haven't heard one in ages. Of course this is barring the console is in good operational order. Let the guy do some fucking research for christ's sake, do I have to do everything? See what happens to nubs when he tries to be nice.
AudioVault
New member
by the way, by sayin is it worth 8 grand i mean i HAVE 8 thousand, plus the 3 maybe i could get for my soundcraft.i know i cant find a trident or neve which is why i said OTARI? does anyone have accually critism on the OTARI CONCEPT?
The Otari consoles are pretty solid. They are built well, and some parts are even still available. They are on the "cleaner" side of the audio spectrum. They do have good routing options. Keep in mind when buying a large format console that it will probably take a good $3000 just to get it all cabled. Another cool console you might want to look at in your budget range is the Sony mxp3036 range and the MCI 636 range. Take a look at Blevins Audio for the MCI's, and the buys at AEA specialize in the Sony's (the same folks that make the ribbon mics). The sony has interchangable EQ and preamp modules that can be reloaded with API, Avalon, Forsell, and a couple of other manufacturers.
Tim Brown
New member
AudioVault said:
I've got a question for you:
What do you specifically use the Mixer for?
Do you actually record through it/mix on it, or is it just for monitoring?
How handy are you with a soldering Iron?
The reason I'm asking is, Frederic is laying out a large Format board - segment by segment in the Studio Building section.
The baddest mixer I ever saw, was a Sound Workshop 34C at Mirror Image studios in Gainesville, FL . I have no idea what they go for, but that is an awesome mixer.
I know that Otari bought Sound Workshop, rather than designing their own mixers from the ground up.
Tim