screamers and grabbing the mic

[Adam P]

one of #1 jobs of the engineer is mic choice (and placement, which in this context is interchangeable with technique when technique=more distance=different placement), not sure how that could be seen as overstepping "artistic" boundaries.

How would it not be seen as overstepping artistic boundaries? If the artist wants to hear the sound of himself screaming into a 58 on his record, than that's what he wants, and that's what he should get. If a drummer came to you to record and said he loved his drums to be miked with two room mics 10 feet away from his kit, with nothing else, would you tell him no? What if that drummer happened to be [insert world famous, world-class drummer's name here]?

 

[Robert D]

one of #1 jobs of the engineer is mic choice (and placement, which in this context is interchangeable with technique when technique=more distance=different placement), not sure how that could be seen as overstepping "artistic" boundaries.

The engineer is doing that job by putting up the mic of his/her choice to record "properly", in addition to the the screamo mic track. I'd also urge the singer to indulge me in putting down the 58 afterward and doing a take into the LDC & pop filter, sans dynamic mic and hands in front of his face. Then everyone has gotten what they want, and the fight moves to mixdown.
The overstepping is, IMO, taking on the job, and then deciding what is music and what isn't, and refusing to record what you feel isn't. In this case, the mic and the singers horrid technique are part of the art, just as a modern painter dips a paint brush into a can and then "throws" the paint at the canvas. That's not how you're supposed to use a paint brush, and the result does nothing for me, but it does for some folks.

 

[giraffe]

What if that drummer happened to be [insert world famous, world-class drummer's name here]?

the difference being [insert famous drummer here] probably knows what he's talking about and [insert screamer from local band] probably doesn't know any better, is using his technique not because that's what is best, but because that's all he knows.

The overstepping is, IMO, taking on the job, and then deciding what is music and what isn't, and refusing to record what you feel isn't. In this case, the mic and the singers horrid technique are part of the art, just as a modern painter dips a paint brush into a can and then "throws" the paint at the canvas. That's not how you're supposed to use a paint brush, and the result does nothing for me, but it does for some folks.

no one’s telling the person to sing, which is a better analogue for your painting metaphor than mic placement.

also, no one’s forcing any one to do anything, but i suggest we try something different..... with the caveat that we can do the cupped mic thing if my way doesn't sound better.
ta-da, never had someone choose to cup the mic.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

SSG & RAYC - What I think you both, and some others in the thread, are not acknowledging, is that, no matter how much we think it's garbage, it is in some peoples minds a valid musical expression to use capsule distortion.

I'll acknowledge, Rob, that is sometimes true. And if they tell me, "Glen, I'm doing that on purpose" for this or that reason, I'll just shug my shoulders and say OK.

But in my expereince it is FAR more often the case where what they are doing is unintentional; either because they honestly don't know what the hell they're doing, or because their ears couldn't hear the difference between a tube compressor and an air compressor.

In these days of "home recording" in the amateur sense, there is a whole generation of folks stepping in front of the microphones with no experienced management, no experience, and no ears; who sound bad not because they *want* to sound that way, but because they honestly don't know what they're doing wrong. And then they want the engineers to FIX it with hardware. They think it's OK to sing like a drunken truck driver because a multiband compressor and a little pitch shifting can magically make them sound like Ray Charles.

I'm saying it just don't work that way, and they have nobody to coach them as to those fundemantals except the experienced engineer. That young lady I referred to in the previous post is a perfect example. She's a nice gal with a decent voice, but she quite honestly is doing what she's doing with the mic not out of artistic license, but out of sheer innocent ignorance. She manages and produces herself, so she has no one to coach her and guide her through the fundamentals. She has had no one to even tell her that when she talks between songs that no one in the audience can understand her because she's talking too fast while swallowing the microphone. She is not working the mic in an artistically radical way, she is simply not working the mic at all.

In the studio that's just not going to fly. She's not going to like the sound even if she were tone deaf because it will simply sound like crap no matter who one artistically slices it (we're talking simple Bonnie Raitt/Heart/Pat Benetar ballads here, not headbanger death metal anthems.)

I'm saying that in cases like that - and with amateur or rookie performers those cases are the general rule and not the exception - if the performer has no one else to step in and show & tell them about mic technique, then the engineer must, for at least one simple reason: because it's the only real way to handle it.

G.

 

[Adam P]

with the caveat that we can do the cupped mic thing if my way doesn't sound better.

If it doesn't sound better to whom? You? Or the artist?

With all due respect, Glen, we're not talking general ignorance to recording processes. We're talking about a specific vocal technique that is, more or less, inherant to a few particular subgenres of non-mainstream music. The guys that sing in these bands are going for that particular effect, and they know how to achieve it. Singers from death metal or hardcore bands generally aren't trying to sound like Ray Charles, or Michael Jackson, or anyone else like that. They're trying to sound like death metal singers ("Cookie Monster vocals", I hear them frequently called).

 

[treymonfauntre]

and take a second one and shove it up there ass.

now they can be an Emo bitch and hardcore at the same time.

even though your age has doubled since the last post of yours i read a few weeks ago, you're still a dumbass. that really surprises me.

 

[Adam P]

Come on, everyone knows that emo is about crying.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

With all due respect, Glen, we're not talking general ignorance to recording processes. We're talking about a specific vocal technique that is, more or less, inherant to a few particular subgenres of non-mainstream music. The guys that sing in these bands are going for that particular effect, and they know how to achieve it.

No disrespect taken. And with similar respectful intent let me say that by my read, the OP did not specifically refer to someone knowledgably or skillfully using a specific technique, even if that technique is what they are trying to emulate. Millions of young artists every day try that cupping technique because that's what they saw someone doing in concert or on a video or heard described. That does not mean they actually know what they are doing; in my experience, more often than not, they don't.

The fact is if they use the technique right - at the right time and with the proper vocal technique behind it - it WILL indeed sound good and proper, and if the engineer knows their stuff he or she will recognize it for what it's meant to be and not question it...he or she will in fact admire the artist's masterful use of it.

But if I had a buck for every time a kid fresh out of his dorm room or bedroom talked to me about thrashing and screaming like some favorite pro artist, and that he had heard about some "k3wl" techniques for sounding really "awsome"; and then strapped on a $1000 guitar that was not even close to being in tune, played the chords incorrectly (even if it were in tune) and then attacked the microphone like Oprah on a baked ham in such a way in which the artist he was trying to emulate could only shake his head and "tsk-tsk" at, I'd be able to take a week's vacation in Hawaii.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking any genre, nor am I knocking young artists. There is IMHO validity and artistry in *any* genre of music, and I encourage people of any age to take up instruments and practice and even perform; the younger the better. The number of young (teenage or even younger) nieces and nephews of mine and sons and daughters of my friends and associates that are taking up everything from guitar or drums, to trombone or saxaphone, to singing to rapping, from broadway musicals to jazz and heavy metal is just incredible. I love it and I encourage it with each and every one of them, big time - regardless of their level of experience.

But the fact remains that the number of young headbangers in this world who step in front of a microphone with dreams of success *long* before they are ready because they are waaay too impatient and waaay too immersed in the Easy Button Syndrome, and who consider things like basic preparation and fundamental technique as a waste of time, is HUGE.

If half of these guys and gals would learn the basics and fundamentals and techniques BEFORE they tried these "k3wl" tricks they heard about, and especially before they tried grabbing a microphone as a shortcut to "finding their muse", they just might wind up liking what they hear coming out the other end instead of coming on here to ask about the use of engineering hardware and software - gear they can play with even less proficiency than they can their voices or instruments - to try and fix their initial problems in post.

G.

 

[producerkid]

I guess I'm a little biased because most of the stuff I work on I produce as well or at least have some production input. I think this is where alot of us are biased (you guys included, lol). IMHO, I think theres a very thin line between producing and engineering and knowing where that line is drawn, I think, is crucial. To a further extent sometimes you have to produce to engineer and vice versa.

For example, when you are working with an inexperienced artist and they know nothing about the studio, you already assume and take responsibility for the fact that you are going to have to do certain things to get "the sound" that they may have wanted to come across differently but have no background knowledge to achieve or are mistakenly wrong about whatever it is they think they know. Now whether they are wrong about how to achieve what they want or not is a tricky thing to decipher. Nine times out of ten, "the sound" that YOU create by choosing whatever mic through whatever pre at whatever position comes from previous experience micing whatever the source is the other times you've done it. In a very real way this is production because you are taking responsibilty for the way the artists "vision" is percieved, how it gels. This is not something you want to fuck up if you want to be a successful engineer and knowing how to make the vision translate correctly in context and within the genre is an even more crucial aspect. This brings me to my next point....

To be brutally honest, if you are not familiar with the music you are recording, dont assume that you are right in knowing how to make something come across correctly. To be more brutal, if you are stubborn enough to tell someone with more knowledge about his music than you that he cant do something or that it "wont work" because you say so, you are an idiot. However if you REALLY feel like you know whats best then deffinately have the artist cut the track the way they want AND the way you want, never just assume that you know everything. THAT is what makes a good engineer. If it turns out that they knew what they wanted then you have to recut which wastes time and the clients money (which is NOT good for return business and your rep). If someone is paying you just to record your record then thats what you do. If someone is paying you to produce AND record their music then you have the right to say what is right and what is wrong because they are paying you to get a certain sound that you can get and they like. Furthermore if they argue with you about how to get that sound then they are wasting yours and their time and money in which case you have a right to say "hey you came to me for this purpose so shutup or pack up" (preferably a little nicer than that, heh).

Don't mistake me when I say that I am a good engineer/producer but I don't know everything. I primarily deal with heavier rock/pop and metal/hardcore and I recorded a rockabilly/country record that I just finished with recnetly. I don't listen to a whole lot of rockabilly or country but I've heard a good bit of it. I get the mix and master done and sent to the band. They were exstatic for the most part but they pointed out a few taste-related things that needed to be fixed that I hadnt really noticed or thought was wrong. I've since been listening to alot of those types of music and while the record sounds great and the production/recording works nicely for it, I now realize several things that could have been done differently to better suit the style.

You HAVE to be open minded to do this thing, because in the end music is in the eye of the beholder. Your job is to do the best job you can do to accurately portray whatever it is that they call music.

Oh yeah and on the subject or the whole non-mainstream music type thing, heavy rock and metal has quite deffinately become pretty mainstream and you're going to seee alot of it in the studio no doubt. So go pick up some modern heavy rock and metal, get your best pair of cans and get intimate with it (some good old fashioned ganja might help if you feel so inclined, I mean, I don't do that or anything ).

KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRACKING!

/end rant

~the kid

 

[producerkid]

Yes, in my opinion too, but it's not our music. You always have the option of turning down the project, but I just don't feel it's right to take the job and then dictate what constitutes art.

This is exactly what I'm talking about summed up nicely. You're a wise man, rob. Kudos.


~the kid

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRACKING!

Absolutely. This is a whole 50% of what it takes to be a good engineer. (The other 50% is having the ears.)

Knowing what you're tracking means knowing and appreciating music of all genres, not just knowing a single micro-genre of one single branch of music, and not just thinking that the world revolves around that one genre.

This thread was started out not referring to any genre of music at all. It had (at least not necessarily) *nothing* to do with metalurgy or with a specific technique used by many headbangers. Go back and read the original post.

what do you guys (that have run into this) do when you get one of those screamers in the studio that insists on cupping a hand held mic by the ball and screaming directly into it? (or directly on it, 0 distance)

Nowhere in there does it refer to a specific music style. Now maybe Giraffe was talking about exactly what you metalurgists are talking about and maybe he is indeed talking abut specifically that kind of music. But there is nothing in that post to make one assume that he is.

And I am being honest when I - as someone who has dealt with and deals with everything from heavy metal to blues to synth orchestra to hard rock to classic jazz to fusion to bubble gum to reggae to...well, you get the point ...tell you that what Giraffe describes as screamers who cup a mic is a phenomenon engineers experience in *every* genre of music, and who 90% of the time are mooks who have no technique or clue whatsoever, and 99% of the time has nothing to do with proper application of some specific micro-genre technique.

Yes, I am biased against mooks who waste everybody's time getting in front of a microphone far before they are ready, just as someone would be biased against my wasting their time by my trying out for the Chicago Bulls. And I am also baised against the many (but not all) metalurgists who sincerely believe that metal is the center of the musical universe, and who both ask questions and give answers on these boards with the extremely biased assumption that this is the 24-hour Death Metal Channel.

G.

 

[producerkid]

So I'm a meturlagist, or were you generalizing about the board (wtf is a meturlagist)? Either way I appologize for generalizing but I was just giving an example when I pointed out Lamb of God and metal in general....you're just nitpicking my post anyway, you ass, lol. The point that I was trying to make is that you should not be cocky about making records. Dude I've recorded anything from acoustic folk to metal to hardcore to punk to electronica to rap to...whatever. I don't think the world revolves around metal or me or whatever at ALL. I've learned alot, I'm always learning, and I don't really have that much of a problem admitting I don't know everything, I just wish everyone ELSE would show the same courtesy. Anyway, the whole point of my statement(s) goes way beyond metal, screaming, and a 58. You get the point.


~the kid

 

[giraffe]

If it doesn't sound better to whom? You? Or the artist?

both, and it usually ends up being an eye opening experience for them.

Re: capsule distortion.
I like it, when and where it sound appropriate. It’s usually more likely to sound in place in a blues record, screamo vocals are any thing but lo-fi. (though often distorted in one manner or another)

And 99 times out of a 100, this technique is used only out of ignorance. Not because of a passion for the sound. Lots of people that do this have never really heard them selves in a manner that lets them evaluate their vocals clearly…….. mostly because people with experience recording already know it sounds like poo, or know exactly when and how it can be used effectively.

Mostly, the people that do this really don’t know better.

 

[giraffe]

Anyway, the whole point of my statement(s) goes way beyond metal, screaming, and a 58.

~the kid

mine does not.

 

[giraffe]

the more i think about it, it's not the proximity to the mic that's the problem. it's the cupping of the mic that thrashes the freq response so badly (i think)

 

[zacanger]

even though your age has doubled since the last post of yours i read a few weeks ago, you're still a dumbass. that really surprises me.

But it's true!

Come on, everyone knows that emo is about crying.

cut my wrists and black my eyes....

 

[Ironklad Audio]

this is the 24-hour Death Metal Channel

(i'm only typing this cause my smile made too short of a message =/)

 

[producerkid]

mine does not.

I WAS RIGHT I WAS RIGHT NANNY NANNY!!!


lol

j/k

~the kid

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

So I'm a meturlagist, or were you generalizing about the board (wtf is a meturlagist)?

Neither one, son. Re-read the post and put it within the context of the thread at the time. I was addressing those who were assuming that giraffe was referring to a specific isotope of metal and who were telling me that I was way off base with my comments because I was not.

And I have been on this board long enough to know that there is indeed a tendancy for a large number of the metalurgists (definition within this context: one who specializes in one or more of any of the subgenres of heavy metal music, often to virtual exclusivity) on this board to think that everyone else is talking only about metal when they don't otherwise specify in their OP. To be fair, it's not just the metal gang, many non-metalurgists here tend to bias towards they're favorite style of music when addressing a question without speicfying genre first (the smart and experienced ones will specify music style right offf the bat to aviod confusion). I have been guilty of that myself. But honesty, this bias and centricity is far more prevalant here within the metal community than anywhere else. That's an observation, not a judgement.

And 99 times out of a 100, this technique is used only out of ignorance. Not because of a passion for the sound. Lots of people that do this have never really heard them selves in a manner that lets them evaluate their vocals clearly…….. mostly because people with experience recording already know it sounds like poo, or know exactly when and how it can be used effectively.

Mostly, the people that do this really don’t know better.

Thank you, and good night.

G.

 

[47ronin]

Southside Glen I can see where you are coming from, but reading your posts I would say I wouldn't ever want to record at your studio. If you want to act like a know it all prick you should at least do it anonymously...